Let's stick with three, for the moment. Five is the majority, though. We'll start with Luke.
I propose, right now, that Skywalker is not a dueling god as of NJO. He was manhandled by Nyax, despite having considerable assistance and is virtually unremarkable throughout the whole thing. His moment of glory in TUF can also be written off as a deus ex machina "avatar-state" that, coincidentally, Jacen Solo also reached in that very same book. He's hardly infallible. I'd say that the likes of RotS Sidious and Yoda could defeat him for most of NJO.
Originally posted by Gideon
Let's stick with three, for the moment. Five is the majority, though. We'll start with Luke.I propose, right now, that Skywalker is not a dueling god as of NJO. He was manhandled by Nyax, despite having considerable assistance and is virtually unremarkable throughout the whole thing. His moment of glory in TUF can also be written off as a deus ex machina "avatar-state" that, coincidentally, Jacen Solo also reached in that very same book. He's hardly infallible. I'd say that the likes of RotS Sidious and Yoda could defeat him for most of NJO.
if its not too late for me to jump in on this (read the beginning, sounds good) I would offer that i agree with you. He's not someone who can't be beaten. He is however, someone who has never ultimately lost, with more known action against a wider variety of foes than any other force user in history.
Fact is, he did defeat DE Sidious, (albeit with the help of leia, but DE leia isn't exactly much of a combatant either) Defeating sidious would probably be his single greatest feat up to NJO, would that be fair and reasonable to say?
Now you have stated that ROTS Sidious and Yoda would be on par or above luke, and offered Nyax as proof. The problem with this is, we have no one to compare nyax too. He could have been more powerful than Sidious. there is no basis of comparison. We can only use the usual written cliches from the authors, and they are written in an attempt to make their characters sound more dangerous. If Nyax was more powerful than DE sidious (since Nyax was strengthed by the force flowing from the ruined jedi temple) then it doesn't hurt the legacy of luke skywalker that he was telekinetically pushed around by him.
Would you be able to offer more evidence of Nyax's place in the hiearchy? or possibly another example of Luke's weakness?
I think we should look at how NJO Luke fights the Vong warriors prior to TUF and how much difficulty he had vs them and possibly compare it to other jedi (preferably in the same book or even the same battle ) such as Jacen,Anakin,Kyp,etc. That should help to measure the gap between Luke's dueling skills vs other "powerhouse jedi " of the time.
Another thing that I think we may want to touch on is NJO Luke and the Dovin Basal feat.
Skywalker suffers from similar restraints that his father did. Anakin Skywalker, as Advent has reasoned, was not a Force demigod likely because he was restrained by the bureacracy that had taken root in the Jedi Temple. That is to say that he had no means to learn esoteric knowledge and techniques that someone like the Emperor has managed to learn. Luke Skywalker is the Jedi Master in a time where his knowledge isn't restrained but practically nonexistent, due to Palpatine's purge. He has a short period of intense training and knowledge under the reborn Emperor, scraps from Kenobi and Yoda, and the great variety he has learned from his travels. But his depth of knowledge is clearly minimal.
As far as his defeat of the Galactic Emperor is concerned, it was legitimate. As Lightsnake has pointed out, Skywalker was in a state of oneness with the Force and had greater incentive to win. But it is evident that his skill was not superior than the Emperor's. Just that day, you will recall that the Emperor laid him out quite handily in their brief lightsaber duel.
I believe that Skywalker's insecurities are at the heart of the problem. As the Force Unleashed and the Empire Strikes Back has shown us, mental limitations manifest themselves on one's ability to use the Force. His post-DE endeavors left him very sober, very insecure, a changed man. I would say that that would also attribute to his lackluster feats, with few exceptions.
It is evident, however, that Luke Skywalker is no match for top tier combatants by the New Jedi Order. Perhaps by TUF. But not a moment before.
This is not a thread to arbitrarily through discussions around any random character. We're giving full analysis and discuss on one character at a time. Unless Luke Skywalker's middle name is Nihilus, you're going to have to wait until we get around to discussing him.
By the way, you're still on ignore.
Perhaps not in a duel, but his displays of power are extraordinary by any standards. Manipulating multiple miniature black holes, crushing an AT-AT into the ground, deflecting said war machine's blaster fire with nothing but the Force, and detonating entire squads of battle droids with a gesture in a manner reminiscent of Arca Jeth are feats that are apparently being ignored.
And I disagree with Luke's "moment of glory" being a cliche union with the Force moment. For one, he displays very few of the signs that are normally associated with it, both in-universe and in narration.
Galen Marek explodes, Anakin Solo is literally discharging lethal Force energy as he dies, Ganner Rhysode is explicitly stated to be achieving a higher state of being and doing things in combat that are completely beyond what he could normally do, and Jacen Solo turns into a being of pure light, melts the Vong Overlord, and then ages five years. Luke, IMO, was simply cutting loose. He turns around and says something to Jacen without even sounding out of breath, after fighting through six levels of progressively more dangerous Vong warriors, and he does something that "neither of the twins had ever seen him do" in goading the slayers into attacking - those who become "one with the Force" never, to my knowledge, demonstrate a real sense of identity.
The twins note that he's a "maelstrom" in the Force, and that his presence and even physical state are barely detectable, but once they reach the throne room the narration notes that their Force-meld has allowed them to act as one, with each being completely aware of the others and their intentions. Especially once the trio are dueling the slayers - if you read the passage - there's no indication that he's anything but himself, in all his glory.
On a side note, Luke's "emerald lightning" isn't really a projectile attack like Force lightning. There's a "blinding tangle" of "raw energy" in his left hand, and then all of a sudden the target stops as if hitting an "invisible wall," starts convulsing with "green sparks" flying through the body, and then promptly dies.
Originally posted by Faunus
Perhaps not in a duel, but his displays of power are extraordinary by any standards. Manipulating multiple miniature black holes, crushing an AT-AT into the ground, deflecting said war machine's blaster fire with nothing but the Force, and detonating entire squads of battle droids with a gesture in a manner reminiscent of Arca Jeth are feats that are apparently being ignored.
His displays of power are extraordinary, but remarkably inconsistent. There must be a reason for it (other than out-of-universe PIS). Consider that, just shortly before the Yuuzhan Vong invaded the New Republic, Skywalker was nearly killed by a droideka, even when he had the highly skilled ex-Emperor's Hand Mara Jade at his side. This is a far cry from the man that waved his hand and crushed a small army of battle droids, crushing AT-ATs, and manipulated black holes.
And I disagree with Luke's "moment of glory" being a cliche union with the Force moment. For one, he displays very few of the signs that are normally associated with it, both in-universe and in narration.
Could you provide the narration? I don't have my copy of the Unifying Force on me.
Galen Marek explodes, Anakin Solo is literally discharging lethal Force energy as he dies, Ganner Rhysode is explicitly stated to be achieving a higher state of being and doing things in combat that are completely beyond what he could normally do, and Jacen Solo turns into a being of pure light, melts the Vong Overlord, and then ages five years.
True, but in the case of Marek and Solo, they were going to die either way, but discharged energy as a means of either saving their allies or trying to take their enemies with them. Rhysode I am ignorant of.
Luke, IMO, was simply cutting loose. He turns around and says something to Jacen without even sounding out of breath, after fighting through six levels of progressively more dangerous Vong warriors, and he does something that "neither of the twins had ever seen him do" in goading the slayers into attacking - those who become "one with the Force" never, to my knowledge, demonstrate a real sense of identity.
"Cutting loose"? How so? And how do you reconcile that with the rest?
The twins note that he's a "maelstrom" in the Force, and that his presence and even physical state are barely detectable, but once they reach the throne room the narration notes that their Force-meld has allowed them to act as one, with each being completely aware of the others and their intentions. Especially once the trio are dueling the slayers - if you read the passage - there's no indication that he's anything but himself, in all his glory.
I may have to concede that.
Don't forget him being able to walk on lava, fly entire ships with the force, block force lightning with his bare hands (something only highly powerful Jedi Masters are able to do), cloaks a PLANET from sight AND Force indefinitely, rebuilds and shatters an entire giant castle with the force, defeated Lumiya one on one...
Let's not sell Luke too short.
Also from the Shadows of Mindor synopsis:
Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader are dead. The Empire has been toppled by the triumphant Rebel Alliance, and the New Republic is ascendant. But the struggle against the dark side and the Sith order is not over. Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, Han Solo, Lando Calrissian, and their faithful comrades have had little time to savor victory before being called on to defend the newly liberated galaxy.
Powerful remnants of the vanquished Empire, hungry for retaliation, are still at large, committing acts of piracy, terrorism, and wholesale slaughter against the worlds of the fledgling Republic. The most deadly of these, a ruthless legion of black-armored stormtroopers, do the brutal bidding of the newly risen warlord Shadowspawn. Striking from a strategically advantageous base at the planet Mindor, they are waging campaigns of plunder and destruction, demolishing order and security across the galaxy—and breeding fears of an Imperial resurgence. And another reign of darkness beneath the boot-heel of Sith despotism is something General Luke Skywalker cannot and will not risk.
Mobilizing the ace fighters of Rogue Squadron—along with the trusty Chewbacca, Threepio, and Artoo-Detoo—Luke, Han, and Leia set out to take the battle to the enemy at the site of its stronghold, and neutralize the threat before it's too late. But their imminent onslaught against Mindor will be playing directly into the hands of their cunning new adversary. Lord Shadowspawn is no freshly anointed Sith Chieftain, but in fact a vicious former Imperial Intelligence officer—and Prophet of the Dark Side. The Emperor's death has paved the way for Shadowspawn's return from exile in the Outer Rim; and mastery of ancient Sith knowledge and modern technology has given him the capability to mount the ultimate power play for galaxy-wide dominion. Dark prophecy has foretold that only one obstacle stands in his way, and he is ready—even eager—for the confrontation.
All the classic heroes, all the explosive action and adventure, all the unparalleled excitement of Star Wars come breathlessly alive here, as the further adventures of Luke Skywalker continue.
I have the distinct feeling, since we know Luke fights Shadowspawn mano a mano, we're gonna see some serious display of power.
Shadowspawn sounds like a beast
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Don't forget him being able to walk on lava,
That is impressive, but not exactly indicative of someone who is all powerful.
fly entire ships with the force,
A Star Destroyer, if I remember correctly, and he manipulated the engines.
block force lightning with his bare hands (something only highly powerful Jedi Masters are able to do),
Where, exactly, does Skywalker do that? And, for the record, General Kota casually performs a similar feat. And though he is a powerful Jedi, I doubt he is on par with what we consider Skywalker to be.
cloaks a PLANET from sight AND Force indefinitely,
Impressive, but he nearly kills himself trying to perform an illusion in Dark Nest, over a simple ship.
rebuilds and shatters an entire giant castle with the force,
Again, impressive, but hardly untouchable.
defeated Lumiya one on one...
And was nearly killed by her the first time. For the record, though Lumiya is a fiercely cunning combatant, she is not extraordinarily powerful.
Let's not sell Luke too short.
I don't. But the idea that he is the greatest ever by NJO and without peer is ridiculous.
Originally posted by Gideon
That is impressive, but not exactly indicative of someone who is all powerful.
A Star Destroyer, if I remember correctly, and he manipulated the engines.
Where, exactly, does Skywalker do that? And, for the record, General Kota casually performs a similar feat. And though he is a powerful Jedi, I doubt he is on par with what we consider Skywalker to be.
Impressive, but he nearly kills himself trying to perform an illusion in Dark Nest, over a simple ship.
Again, impressive, but hardly untouchable.
And was nearly killed by her the first time. For the record, though Lumiya is a fiercely cunning combatant, she is not extraordinarily powerful.
I don't. But the idea that he is the greatest ever by NJO and without peer is ridiculous.
Originally posted by GideonI agree entirely.
His displays of power are extraordinary, but remarkably inconsistent.
There must be a reason for it (other than out-of-universe PIS).Your theory of his own insecurities getting in the way makes the most sense, although they shouldn't matter when he's fighting the likes of Darth Sidious, his history with whom is the stuff of nightmares.
Although this is contradicted by his battering at the hands of Nyax... Can you provide details on that fight?
Consider that, just shortly before the Yuuzhan Vong invaded the New Republic, Skywalker was nearly killed by a droideka, even when he had the highly skilled ex-Emperor's Hand Mara Jade at his side. This is a far cry from the man that waved his hand and crushed a small army of battle droids, crushing AT-ATs, and manipulated black holes.True.
Could you provide the narration? I don't have my copy of the Unifying Force on me.I don't have a copy, period. I just use the online source - I'll be sure to post it later today (tomorrow?).
True, but in the case of Marek and Solo, they were going to die either way, but discharged energy as a means of either saving their allies or trying to take their enemies with them. Rhysode I am ignorant of.Solo was accidental - he was wounded and he was dying, not actively trying to kill the Vong with the Force.
"Cutting loose"? How so?Cutting loose, as in not holding back at all. Fighting with everything he himself had, maximum effort, etc.
And how do you reconcile that with the rest?Clarify, please?
I may have to concede that.You may indeed. 😐
@Lightsnake: Are all of those feats from NJO or earlier?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, he does walk on it and fight a giant lava monster, so it's impressive alright
Again, it's not because Luke Skywalker is so uber that his flesh is resistant to unimaginably high temperatures, but because he uses the Force to protect himself from it.
I was referring to the Milennium Falcon in Courtship of Princess Leia technically
Could you give us a bit more detail on how he does it? Moreover, I will remind you that the Falcon is not a gigantic ship.
Of course not. But, IIRC, the Ultimate Visual Guide says even the most powerful Jedi masters are hard pressed to perform this feat...and where does Kota do this?
In the Force Unleashed novelization, he laughs and deflects Starkiller's lightning with his hand, and then redirects the psuedo-apprentice's telekinesis at him.
And this is Courtship of Princess Leia Luke...far from NJO
Against whom?
Presumably as he had to literally CREATE the ship in midair...different from the usual manipulating minds in force illusions. He created a fleet at the battle of Fondor to Caedus, for instance. And shortly after The Joiner King, he does the same thing again with no issue. Either he mastered it after one go, or something was wrong with him the first time.
Did he summon illusions of these ships for everyone, or was he simply manipulating Caedus. I presume there is a vast difference.
Alone? Hardly. But when you add all of this together...
Still, we need a bit more detail.
This is before the second Death Star was even destroyed. The second time, Luke beat her VERY soundly. And Lumiya was an Emperor's Hand and personally groomed by Vader. These aren't titles given out easily
Still, Lumiya nearly defeated Skywalker. She is an Emperor's Hand because she is a highly dangerous fighter -- consider that Lumiya herself was nearly defeated by Nelani Dinn and Tresani Lobi -- but not a potent Force user.
Without peer? No. Head and shoulders above just about anyone else you can think and capable of taking on anyone else? Yes.
I'm hesitant to say that. Is he weak? No. Is he average? No. But he's not number two by NJO.
Originally posted by Faunus
I agree entirely.
We must try to find a feasible explanation for it.
Your theory of his own insecurities getting in the way makes the most sense, although they shouldn't matter when he's fighting the likes of Darth Sidious, his history with whom is the stuff of nightmares.
Wouldn't it, though? I'd imagine that, to him, Palpatine is a figure of nightmares. He exploited Skywalker's weakness and lured him to the dark side.
Although this is contradicted by his battering at the hands of Nyax... Can you provide details on that fight?
Not at the moment.
I don't have a copy, period. I just use the online source - I'll be sure to post it later today (tomorrow?).
Sure.
Solo was accidental - he was wounded and he was dying, not actively trying to kill the Vong with the Force.
Was he not?
Cutting loose, as in not holding back at all. Fighting with everything he himself had, maximum effort, etc.
Going to the dark side or basically how Yoda fought against the Emperor?
Clarify, please?
How would you explain the inconsistencies?
Originally posted by Gideon
Again, it's not because Luke Skywalker is so uber that his flesh is resistant to unimaginably high temperatures, but because he uses the Force to protect himself from it.
Could you give us a bit more detail on how he does it? Moreover, I will remind you that the Falcon is not a gigantic ship.
In the Force Unleashed novelization, he laughs and deflects Starkiller's lightning with his hand, and then redirects the psuedo-apprentice's telekinesis at him.
Against whom?
Did he summon illusions of these ships for everyone, or was he simply manipulating Caedus. I presume there is a vast difference.
Still, Lumiya nearly defeated Skywalker. She is an Emperor's Hand because she is a highly dangerous fighter -- consider that Lumiya herself was nearly defeated by Nelani Dinn and Tresani Lobi -- but not a potent Force user.
I'm hesitant to say that. Is he weak? No. Is he average? No. But he's not number two by NJO.