What would your polictical party be? Should we abolish the political spectrum?

Started by Symmetric Chaos36 pages
Originally posted by Bardock42
The same that stops you from doing it now would stop you in an anarchist system'

Reprisal by the evil oppressive agents of the law? Seems fairly non-anarchist to me.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah..those terrorists....they live in countries with governments, right? Just checkin'

This happen to be a hypothetical where everyone but said terrorists is a utopian anarchist. But to answer the question you seem to be trying to ask, yes terrorists can form in nations with governments.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
No, there would be as great retribution for such things as there is now.

By?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Reprisal by the evil oppressive agents of the law? Seems fairly non-anarchist to me.

No, just reprisal. Who does it is of no matter.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
This happen to be a hypothetical where everyone but said terrorists is a utopian anarchist. But to answer the question you seem to be trying to ask, yes terrorists can form in nations with governments.

Ah, I see. Well, not really a good argument against anarchy then. But terrorists are bad, I agree.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
By?

I don't know about Bardock and Inimalist, but I'm an Archo-Capitalist. The retribution would be from the PDAs that represent people.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
By?

Voluntary Community Police Forces and Protection Agencies.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yes. If I felt there was little risk in theft or violence I would steal and I would hit people when they pissed me off, just like most people do when they see society fall apart around them. Spontaneous looting happens for a reason, IMO. The current systems is high risk, low return for violating someone else's morals unless you're very good at what you do.

why do you assume there would be no consequence to hurting someone else in an anarchist society.

Largely, I feel it might motivate people to not **** with each other too much, considering they can't go to the police for protection if a store owner wants to bash your face in, and the rest of the community thinks its a fair deal.

anarchy in the way I describe it does not involve a lack of social accountability

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
At a certain level, I'm willing to agree. But I don't think that most people (or at least enough people) would inconvenience themselves to help someone else. I might pull a stranger out of a well but I wouldn't put together a fund to save everyone who was trapped somewhere.

my system wouldn't want you setting up a fund for people if you don't want to, it might have you participate in a fund that directly affects you, like community security and hospitals, I agree, I don't see why you should be interested in people over there. Also, given that I argue for sort of radical federalism, funding systems that have been shown to work without government would already be in place before government was removed, with ways to modify them if necessary. I may be a utopian, but I certainly am a pragmatist.

the altruism argument essentially is why I don't think you would murder people.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So the wealthy would pay money to protect the poor? I suppose they'll be paying to uplift the disenfranchised so that they have equal opportunity to advance in society, too?

the hope is that the poor are not so terribly afflicted that they can't afford to protect themselves. Or, that systems not reliant on government are able to provide services to those least able to afford them.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I don't particularly like systems where you have to start by assuming people will be responsible all on their own.

strange, my thoughts are that personal responsibility is the most crucial part of a political system

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If.

hence why it is an ideology and not the science of anarchist society

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Not on a large scale, at least not without an organization that can prevent monopolies. Anarchy and miniarchy don't allow for that much power to belong to any group.

if you replaced monopolies with market consolidation I would agree. Monopolies do not necessarily have to be negative in a free market. If competition has access to the market, it means the monopolizing company is providing the best product at the needed demand for the lowest price.

Look, obviously nothing is perfect. I also don't believe in a system where ideology replaces pragmatism. Anarchy may be an unreachable ideal, but certainly the idea that the state might act to give as much power to make decision to those most affected by them is certainly one, I think, deserves a try. Maybe in the end, the balance of power requires a state funded militia to keep the peace, or some government regulatory board to enforce contracts or have safety regulations, we are almost assuredly not to find out the way things are going however.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No, just reprisal. Who does it is of no matter.

I see. Who is organizing this reprisal?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Ah, I see. Well, not really a good argument against anarchy then. But terrorists are bad, I agree.

Very bad.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
I don't know about Bardock and Inimalist, but I'm an Archo-Capitalist. The retribution would be from the PDAs that represent people.

Having representatives sounds like having a government to me.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I see. Who is organizing this reprisal?

The community forces and the privately paid protection agencies.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Having representatives sounds like having a government to me.

That's your shortcoming though.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Those don't make you right. Not when I can splatter your brain across the wall because I don't like the way you mixed colors in that most recent painting.

are you arguing that morally correct behaviour comes from displaying the most violence?

I'm not saying being morally correct is the most violently powerful way, I am saying it is more, well, morally correct.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Thus making anarchy a good system?

Numbers matter less and less as human ability to kill one another increases. Ten thousand good people don't feel a need for weapons, a handful of terrorists do. Unless those ten thousand people aren't assuming a goodness inherent to the human condition they those.

I can, yet again, admit that you are right

I have yet to think of a way that pascifist societies could stand against those willing to do violence.

Luckily in the system I believe in, the military would never be dissolved until there were no need for it to be state run. Meaning the army will be there if needed and that, should the day where a state run army is not needed ever come, there is something providing an equivalent function that has been shown to work.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I agree, I just don't think that holding one's self to high standards should come at the price of waiting to be killed.

I don't remember making that argument...

Originally posted by inimalist
Luckily in the system I believe in, the military would never be dissolved until there were no need for it to be state run. Meaning the army will be there if needed and that, should the day where a state run army is not needed ever come, there is something providing an equivalent function that has been shown to work.

Your system? I assume you mean a system that you've made up, that works best for you.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Your system? I assume you mean a system that you've made up, that works best for you.

-AC

I think he means "the system he believes in". Kinda like he said.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Your system? I assume you mean a system that you've made up, that works best for you.

-AC

I wouldn't presume to call it my system, but yes, it is largely based on ideas I've come up with based on my personal experiences and stuff I've come across in general

why do you ask?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Having representatives sounds like having a government to me.

No. PDAs are optional. Governments are not. PDAs are controlled by the market, meaning their decisions are directly tied to their profit. Governments do not have the same restraint. Etc.

Originally posted by inimalist
why do you assume there would be no consequence to hurting someone else in an anarchist society.

Mainly fear. Without long standing organization it's fairly hard to motivate people to put themselves directly in harms way. An inspiring speech might do it once or twice but the average person is not going to throw himself in the line of fire.

Originally posted by inimalist
Largely, I feel it might motivate people to not **** with each other too much, considering they can't go to the police for protection if a store owner wants to bash your face in, and the rest of the community thinks its a fair deal.

anarchy in the way I describe it does not involve a lack of social accountability

Is the store owner somehow not ****ing with me?

Originally posted by inimalist
my system wouldn't want you setting up a fund for people if you don't want to, it might have you participate in a fund that directly affects you, like community security and hospitals, I agree, I don't see why you should be interested in people over there. Also, given that I argue for sort of radical federalism, funding systems that have been shown to work without government would already be in place before government was removed, with ways to modify them if necessary.

That makes sense. However, it rapidly turns toward forming a government and still places power in those with money even more than our current system.

Originally posted by inimalist
I may be a utopian, but I certainly am a pragmatist.

Always thought those were opposites 😛

Originally posted by inimalist
the altruism argument essentially is why I don't think you would murder people.

Then why isn't it stopping people now?

Originally posted by inimalist
the hope is that the poor are not so terribly afflicted that they can't afford to protect themselves. Or, that systems not reliant on government are able to provide services to those least able to afford them.

I don't follow and because I can't think of a very good way to express it I'll write my rebuttal in algebra.

Government + Non-Government = Insuffcient
Non-Government = Insuffcient - Government

Originally posted by inimalist
strange, my thoughts are that personal responsibility is the most crucial part of a political system

Personal responsibility is needed in just about everything. It's not reliable enough to use as the base for an entire system, though.

Originally posted by inimalist
hence why it is an ideology and not the science of anarchist society

Oh. Not a fan of presenting idealism as a goal. As an idea sure, but goals should be reachable things that move towards an ideal.

Originally posted by inimalist
if you replaced monopolies with market consolidation I would agree. Monopolies do not necessarily have to be negative in a free market. If competition has access to the market, it means the monopolizing company is providing the best product at the needed demand for the lowest price.

When has a monopoly ever done that? If it's happened I would admit that aspect of the system is probably workable.

Originally posted by inimalist
Look, obviously nothing is perfect. I also don't believe in a system where ideology replaces pragmatism. Anarchy may be an unreachable ideal, but certainly the idea that the state might act to give as much power to make decision to those most affected by them is certainly one, I think, deserves a try. Maybe in the end, the balance of power requires a state funded militia to keep the peace, or some government regulatory board to enforce contracts or have safety regulations, we are almost assuredly not to find out the way things are going however.

I think we can reach an accord in that much. Government deserves to be (perhaps needs to be) modified to benefit the people as much as possible but tearing it down isn't necessarily the best way to do that.

Originally posted by Bardock42
The community forces and the privately paid protection agencies.

My apologies. You seem to have posted that a number of times. Why are you willing to invest power and safety in those groups? Why assume that they will form?

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
No. PDAs are optional. Governments are not. PDAs are controlled by the market, meaning their decisions are directly tied to their profit. Governments do not have the same restraint. Etc.

😬

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think he means "the system he believes in". Kinda like he said.

Or like he just clarified; his system. That's basically what it amounts to.

Originally posted by inimalist
I wouldn't presume to call it my system, but yes, it is largely based on ideas I've come up with based on my personal experiences and stuff I've come across in general

why do you ask?

Just curious, just curious.

Supposing someone with their own system and say, weapons, decides to take over something. How would that be dealt with in your society? Assuming there are people who are not paying for protection.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Or like he just clarified; his system. That's basically what it amounts to.

-AC

Not really. It's not uncommon in anarchist circles. And even if, does it matter whether just one person believes it is a good system?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Just curious, just curious.

Supposing someone with their own system and say, weapons, decides to take over something. How would that be dealt with in your society? Assuming there are people who are not paying for protection.

-AC

There will be enough people with guns of their own hindering that person from upsetting the balance.

Originally posted by inimalist
are you arguing that morally correct behaviour comes from displaying the most violence?

I'm not saying being morally correct is the most violently powerful way, I am saying it is more, well, morally correct.

No, not at all. I'm arguing that power comes from the ability to control others. Morality comes from many different places, typically society.

Originally posted by inimalist
I can, yet again, admit that you are right

I have yet to think of a way that pascifist societies could stand against those willing to do violence.

There's the sci-fi standby of "we're defenseless but you can't hurt us" which is workable in the real world if a utopia can advance well beyond those who want to hurt it. It's possible, but terribly unlikely and would probably lead to a sort of ivory tower mentality.

There's also a good old fashioned First U.S. Army Group.

Originally posted by inimalist
Luckily in the system I believe in, the military would never be dissolved until there were no need for it to be state run. Meaning the army will be there if needed and that, should the day where a state run army is not needed ever come, there is something providing an equivalent function that has been shown to work.

That's a good system, I'll admit, but the existence on the army doesn't seem anarchistic as long as there is anyone controlling it (and thus in a position to oppress others).

Originally posted by inimalist
I don't remember making that argument...

Reading too much into you statements about social responsibility.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Just curious, just curious.

Supposing someone with their own system and say, weapons, decides to take over something. How would that be dealt with in your society? Assuming there are people who are not paying for protection.

-AC

An individual?

likely, given a few arguable assumptions about how I feel people would behave, they would be killed. I'm just assuming that people would be willing enough to defend their homes against a single instigator like that, and in this case, numbers favor the community.

The extension from that is, well, what if he gets a bunch of friends. This does pose some possibility, but I think you underestimate what anarchists believe. Most of us feel that this person would be shunned and likely kicked out (at best) of most communities. Maybe bandits form and become a problem?

I think your point is better made in the example of 2 states, one anarchist, one not. Even if the state with a government is a non-militaristic modern democracy, the fact it has a government that can, at the expense of other programs, direct funds into directed wartime efforts, and have a unified top-down military, sort of gives them irreconcilable advantages over an anarchist society. Even if we assume the anarchists have a market and industry capable of building tanks (states can stop trade to nations, so anarchists would loose the ability to import arms) and other necessary weapons, and even if we give them financial support from major corporate interests in the anarchist state, I don't feel they would have the same level and coordination, not to mention (due to lack of government propoganda) public support, of a western military, and certainly not the mobility or deployment capacities.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Or like he just clarified; his system. That's basically what it amounts to.

to further clarify, I do not claim any ownership of that system. It is simply my belief structure, and I do not think I'm the first to come up with those ideas. They are simply what make sense to me

Originally posted by lord xyz
There will be enough people with guns of their own hindering that person from upsetting the balance.

Supposing a group decided to do it then?

You cannot guarantee against an uprising, or any kind of dictatorship arising out of anarchy.

-AC