Sharia courts operating in Britain

Started by inimalist4 pages

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I think it's very possible and is probably already happening.

I agree, it's completely oppressive and out of order, but the fact seems to be - it will happen regardless. It's completely beyond me how this could be solved, but I have to echo Ush's earlier statement on the matter - that not allowing such a fundamental freedom would only cause more tension.

I actually echo that sentiment

like I said, there are already people in the Muslim community screaming as loudly as they can to try and make these reforms themselves. Instead of going to the Mosque to find people to be the community leaders and the ones who get to interpret Sharia, why not give power to people in these groups? I understand that people don't want to enforce their beliefs on people, but the government has no right in deciding what the interpretation of the Sharia is, and by keeping the power in the established patriarchy, that is what they are doing.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Please explain, I don't get it.
An attempt at humour.

I was a bit drunk.

Originally posted by lord xyz
An attempt at humour.

I was a bit drunk.

Couldn't tell the difference.

Can you like, leave me alone?

Originally posted by lord xyz
Can you like, leave me alone?
You mean, can I not reply to your posts on this public forum anymore? Well, obviously I can, the question is will I?

The answer is "no".

Why are you doing this, what is the ultimate goal here?

Originally posted by lord xyz
Why are you doing this, what is the ultimate goal here?

Well, the first was, because I found it funny (kinda how you find it funny to post cocks in a suit)..the second was because you replied to me, asked me something and I found it funny...same why I reply this time.

No, I was asking why you're making bad jokes involving the contents of my posts.

It's not something I'd want to do in 6 years.

Originally posted by lord xyz
No, I was asking why you're making bad jokes involving the contents of my posts.

It's not something I'd want to do in 6 years.

I feel like my last post did kinda explain it very well. Not sure why you ask again...oh and it's very fulfilling. Quite a purpose.

The thing is this isn't a matter of 'allowing Sharia law' (which is a complete misnomer because there is a lot ACTUAL Sharia law would demand that is simply not compatible with this system or UK law in general).

It is a matter of allowing ANY logic at all from an arbitrator, so long as both parties concerned agree to use that arbitrator.

That's why it is absurd to see this as something we should specifcally do somwething about- which would involve having to say "An arbitrator can decide using any criteria he wishes so long as he works inside the UK legal system. Oh, yeah, and so long as his views have nothing to do with a certain Muslim belief."

Like I say, people have been usintg this syetm with any philosophical attitude they like- atheist, Christian, Jewish, humanist... whatever! I find it very odd that suddenly people are objecting to the concept because Muslims are taking that same right.

I personally don´t mind what people choose to be judged by, I´m worried that it might spread to other people who don´t share the beliefs.

The phenomenon described in this thread has absolutely nothing to do with such a worry.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
The thing is this isn't a matter of 'allowing Sharia law' (which is a complete misnomer because there is a lot ACTUAL Sharia law would demand that is simply not compatible with this system or UK law in general).

It is a matter of allowing ANY logic at all from an arbitrator, so long as both parties concerned agree to use that arbitrator.

I'm not sure what the rules would look like, but for the sake of argument, say Bardock wrongs me and I want to take him into arbitration based on anarchist principles, is this ok?

what about if it is on principles based on a new cult religion we formed?

Is there really no limit?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That's why it is absurd to see this as something we should specifcally do somwething about- which would involve having to say "An arbitrator can decide using any criteria he wishes so long as he works inside the UK legal system. Oh, yeah, and so long as his views have nothing to do with a certain Muslim belief."

1) total strawman, nobody has mentioned banning the arbitration. unless I missed something, I'm the only person arguing for caution, and I've expressed at least twice that I have no interest in banning things.

2) There is nothing "we" should do anything about. Muslim communities, and specifically the individuals who comprise those communities, should be allowed to decide their own fate. In my mind, this means both without government or local patriarchy. More voices in the Muslim community need to be heard, rather than the same patriarchal ones that a) oppress people within their communities and prevent/inhibit social rights organizations and b) in many ways promote divisive messages of Islam that do much to polarize the outside population against Muslims. My point is about cutting of voices of change in the community.

3) In a civil society, if it comes to empowering people and fighting oppression, certain interpretations of anything can be said to be subversive and negative. The government has a right to break down oppressive patriarchies.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Like I say, people have been usintg this syetm with any philosophical attitude they like- atheist, Christian, Jewish, humanist... whatever! I find it very odd that suddenly people are objecting to the concept because Muslims are taking that same right.

again, as I feel I'm the only one raising objection in any way in this thread, it is a total mischaracterization of my position.

idealistically, I don't like religion being able to make legally binding decisions anyways, regardless of the religion or the philosophy.

Muslims taking their rights also has nothing to do with it. I'm talking about problems within the muslim communities, especially the immigrants, which will not be addressed by this problem.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
The phenomenon described in this thread has absolutely nothing to do with such a worry.

The Saudis might disagree with that. They send LOTS of money to the UK for that very reason.

Like my first post alluded, I would not be surprised to find Saudi money all over the lobbying for this

Rather feeble, inimalist.

To your first point- if you and bardock both agreed to have an anarchist arbitrate for you, then yes, that would be fine, as it would also be fine if you both agreed to be arbitreated by some new religious representative. Why wouldn't that be fine? This really is a very simple thing. The process of arbitration involves choosing someone to arbitrate for you, and his view is always going to come from some belief system or another.

Secondly. read the gist of the argument. To complain about this is to say it should not be allowed, which has been the effective thrust of things. There is not the slightest strawmanning at all- and, incidentally, 'showing concern' is something I would equally criticise on exactly the same logic as I have already presented.

Your point really has nothing to do with hearing voices in the community at all, that si a total aside you have made up. Like I say, if you want to engage in community re-structure, educaiton, change, whatevertm, that's just fine. But that's irrelevant to this current argument, where all must have the same right of access to either being an arbitrator or to arbitration. If you want to make a thread on the threat you think is coming from Muslim community thinking then fine- but that's not this thread.

Hence your point about having the right to break things down is completely irrelevant as well.

It is NOT religion that is making decisions. It is PEOPLE. People make decisions based on the logic that forms the way they view the world. That may be religion or it many not, but that, again, is irreelvant; at base there is no difference in principle in the process. People have different value systems, religious or otherwise. When you choose an arbitrator, it is because you have appreciation of the value system you think that arbitrator uses.

Now, you may not like the value systems some people would use to make decisions on. But you might also dislike the value systems used by someone who is not religious at all. In fact, if we polled 100 mmebers of this forum about a typical divorce case I reckon we would probably get at least fifty different viewpoints. The fact that someone's views on such matters may be religious in nature is, pretty much, irrelevant to the matter.

In these cases, some people make decisions based on their interpretation of Muslim values. Some other people are desirous of having their problems settled by such a person. That is their right, and to question that right is of FAR more concern to me than any concern about spreading sharia law.

And once more, your thing about the Saudis putting money into anyhting... doesn't make a damn difference.

I really do feel you are talking about a completely different subject. The fact that Muslims are using their right to be arbitrators is not really interesting news. And what lobbying? Your use of the word 'lobbying' again makes me think you aere talking about something completely different and do not understand this subject at all. There hasn't been any lobbying, just the use of an already existing right. So again, this thread had nothing to do with such a worry.

Ultimately, any objection to this process is simple discrimination against Muslim beliefs. No-one is FORCED to accept arbitration. If you do want your matter arbitrated, it is your own business who you turn to to do that. So long as both parties agree, and so long as the process stays within UK law, frankly no-one else has any business in the matter.

Inimalist has stated he isn't an anarchist in another thread.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Inimalist has stated he isn't an anarchist in another thread.

no I haven't

The response to this, if it is just application of existing rights to arbitration, seems rather overblown...

I don't think any religious doctrine should be used to arbitrate disputes; but then that's just my personal opining. If other people want to then I don't really care.

Re: Sharia courts operating in Britain

Originally posted by Bicnarok
The government has quietly sanctioned that their rulings are enforceable with the full power of the judicial system, through the county courts or High Court.

That would seem to be more than just the right to choose an arbiter.

Although, it doesn't say any such thing in any source materiel provided.

also, this is the establishment of official Sharia courts.

I'm doing some half assed research in an attempt to look less feeble next time, but one thing that is for sure, is that this is a parallel legal establishment, and not simply the right to arbitrate. It is certainly versed in those terms, and is technically legal, as Jews have a similar system in the UK.

Not in Canada though. And I'd like to point out how this news report shows empirical evidence that one can be against all religious based arbitration and not be anti-Muslim!

http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/soundoff/story.html?id=997485b8-bf66-41a1-bd58-8b8e1e434193