What's the point of proving or disproving the existence of God?

Started by Grand-Moff-Gav5 pages
Originally posted by KharmaDog
Doesn't trying to prove that there is a god negate someone's act of faith thereby making them pretty much an agnostic?

As stated people can be religious without the faith aspect.

Remember back in the days when noone (or very few) would actually doubt the existence of a God or gods. They didn't have faith he/they was/were real any more than they had faith that the ground, sea and fire was real...

In many cases teh ground sea and fire where also gods!

So, Religion/Theism can exist without faith.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Don't be too sharp in your criticism, as they say "a house divided upon itself cannot stand".

Then again, I can tell you don't want to live with these "militant-@ssholes" as you term them.

Your last point depends on the definition of moral, which are right which are wrong, absolute or relative etc etc. Though you could say more atheists follow what they consider to be moral I guess...(if thats your hypothesis)

It wasn't my hypothesis. I'll try to dig up the thread. Here we go:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=479017&highlight=title%3A%28moral%29+forumid%3A80

Also, it should be noted that the "militant a-holes" isn't my term. I like a lot of them, and agree with most. I just think they approach the subject of religion incorrectly. So I'm not criticizing atheism. I'm criticizing atheists who turn it into their version of a holy war, and consider themselves at all superior. I can, for example, agree with nearly everyting Richard Dawkins says....yet give a hearty facepalm when he attempts to coin the term "bright" to describe an atheist, with a clear negative connotation towards others.

Anyway, here's the relevant part of the thread I linked you to:

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Perhaps the biggest myth concerning atheism is that morality becomes an "anything goes" attitude without a god-figure to keep a person in check. For example, a July 1995 poll of 1,007 adults published in George Barna's 1996 Index of Leading Spiritual Indicators found that 60% of Americans believe atheism has a generally negative influence on society. But as it turns out, this hypothesis is testable, and has been tested by numerous credible sources.

- a 1934 study by Abraham Franzblau found a negative correlation between acceptance of religious beliefs and three different measures of honesty.
- In 1950 a survey of thousands was conducted by Murray Ross, and found that those who considered themselves agnostics or atheists were more likely to express willingness to aid the poor than those who considred themselves deeply religious.
- A 1969 report (Hirschi and Stark) that analyzed a multitude of crime and cultural data found no significant different in the likelihood of committing crimes between children who attended church regularly and those who did not.
- A 1975 report (Smith, Wheeler, & Diener) reported no difference in religious/non-religious college-age students when measuring how likely they were to cheat on tests.
- A similar report from 1962 (Middleton & Putney) reports a noticeable increase in cheating among religious students.
- David Wulff's 1991 novel Psychology of Religion compiles dozens of studies to this affect and finds a positive correlation between "religious affiliation, church attendance, doctrinal orthodoxy, rated importance of religion, and so on" with "ethnocentrism, authoritarianism, dogmatism, social distance, intolerance of ambiguity, and specific forms of prejudice, especially against Jews and blacks" (219-220).

To my knowledge, none of the researchers cited are atheists. All are researchable for those who wish to see the exact methods and results. It does not prove that atheism or spirituality makes one more moral than the other, but it shows irrefutable evidence that not only that atheism can be moral, but most atheists are moral. But the data is clear: not only does religion not ensure a heightened morality over non-religion, but it is statistically correlated with higher occurrences of immorality.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
As stated people can be religious without the faith aspect.

Remember back in the days when noone (or very few) would actually doubt the existence of a God or gods. They didn't have faith he/they was/were real any more than they had faith that the ground, sea and fire was real...

In many cases teh ground sea and fire where also gods!

So, Religion/Theism can exist without faith.

So you are talking more about spirtuality?

As for faith, I was under the understanding that "faith" was one of the defining characteristics of christianity.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
So you are talking more about spirtuality?

As for faith, I was under the understanding that "faith" was one of the defining characteristics of christianity.

Well, not really no- Vikings who believed in Odin and Thor withought question were religious...funnily enough.

People who took Jesus of a matter of fact- still religious, just without that leap of faith.

Of course, there was always a faith aspect around- you had to have faith that the God you knew existed wouldn't be a complete dick to you haha.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Well, not really no- Vikings who believed in Odin and Thor withought question were religious...funnily enough.

Just to add some vikings didnt believe in the gods. Obvoulsy I don't know demographics but there is one story of one man who didnt believe in Odin and Thor. Obvoulsy there would have been others and as the author put it some just did it because everybody else did it. Yeah going off on a tangent.

Originally posted by Bardock42
...wow...

Just wow.

Dude, you try not to gaffe at 1 in the morning.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Dude, you try not to gaffe at 1 in the morning.
I do, on a regular basis. And it usually achieve it, too.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I do, on a regular basis. And it usually achieve it, too.
This coming from the guy who is against arrogance.

Originally posted by lord xyz
This coming from the guy who is against arrogance.

I am what? Since when?

Originally posted by Bardock42
I am what? Since when?
You criticise others for being arrogant.

Originally posted by lord xyz
You criticise others for being arrogant.
That's, at best, a half truth.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Just to add some vikings didnt believe in the gods. Obvoulsy I don't know demographics but there is one story of one man who didnt believe in Odin and Thor. Obvoulsy there would have been others and as the author put it some just did it because everybody else did it. Yeah going off on a tangent.

I've heard similar things about the Greeks/Romans

there was lots of spirituality, but large portions of the society didn't necessarily take animal sacrifice too seriously

Originally posted by Bardock42
That's, at best, a half truth.
Even so, it's hypocritical.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Even so, it's hypocritical.
Not really. Because the truth is that I find arrogance that is unjustified and not based in actual superior evidence or reasoning despicable (the sort of arrogance you like to portray), the lie is that I criticise everyone for being arrogant. AC, for example, may very well be arrogant in most cases, seeing as he is usually to some degree right.

It's not necessarily the most flattering of character traits, but that's besides the point. Also, you know what you are.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Not really. Because the truth is that I find arrogance that is unjustified and not based in actual superior evidence or reasoning despicable (the sort of arrogance you like to portray), the lie is that I criticise everyone for being arrogant. AC, for example, may very well be arrogant in most cases, seeing as he is usually to some degree right.

It's not necessarily the most flattering of character traits, but that's besides the point. Also, you know what you are.

I only act arrogant because that's the tone of the GDF.

Originally posted by lord xyz
I only act arrogant because that's the tone of the GDF.
Sure. Why would I want to discuss your juvenile reasons to behave like a turd? The fact is you behave arrogantly and have no sort of knowledge, even of the most basic stuff to back it up with. You clown.

I'm a very humble person. God told me so! I'm special, I'm humble and damn I'm gonna tell everyone too!!

I'm only arrogant when I talk down to people who aren't as good as me.

Walmart people?

Sorry, I used to work there. 😑 😂

Btw, no wandering eye.

(Hell there might be really quiet people around who none of us have noticed!)

Don't look at me...

I used to be a 'millitant @sshole'. I like to think that I moved past that though. Being a militant anything seems to cause more problems than it solves. 😬

Except for Grammar Nazis. We will solve the world's '1337 speak' problem.

(The only people I'm deliberately rude to are Young Earth creationists, and lets face it, they get what they deserve.)