Ultron vs. the Destroyer.

Originally posted by h1a8
[B]
Being able to manipulate matter doesn't automatically give one the ability to manipulate all matter. Fire has the abillity to manipulate matter (depending on how hot it is) but not all. I personally do not think the Destroyer can even put one crack in Ultron's armor. And if he slightly dent's it, Ultron would just reform it anew. You must prove that the Destroyer can manipulate true adamantium. [/B]

Uh, Ultron uses an internal **molecular rearranger** to be able to move around, Genius. If matter manipulation didn't work on true adamantium, Ultron would be frozen in one spot.

matter manipulation (which destroyer has) is MOST CERTAINLY a weak spot for ultron.

not that it matters, as there's no attack anywhere in ultron's arsenal that can scratch destroyer.

Originally posted by SIAFON
Okay I vote Ultron. Thor has faced the Destroyer plenty of times with a human as the host, and that was the reason he was able to stand toe-to-toe with it. In time defeat it. Ultron on the other hand has stood up to all of the Avengers, Thor included. So with Lex being in the armour I say Ultron. The Destroyer armour animated by a living host, and the more powerful the host. The more powerful the armour, but Ultron is just a handful period. In Secret Wars when Ultron turned on the Villians Doom had The Molecular Man levitate him up to Galactus line of sight, and then Galactus took him out. Doom then turned Ultron into his bodyguard which even the heroes feared. Thor, Hulk, She-Hulk, Collosus, Magneto, I mean the list goes on. But I vote for Ultron.

Up until recently, Thor had never beaten the Destroyer in a straight fight. He always got killed whenever he faced it head on. He won by attacking the body or expelling the spirit in control of the armor.

Ultron cannot hurt the Destroyer. It's taken skyfather level power to fight it head on. Nothing Ultron does will have the slightest effect on the armor. Which has matter manip, and the visor beam. That beam has cleaved Mjolnir and other insanely durable objects, adamantium won't be a problem.

Destroyer > Ultron

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Up until recently, Thor had never beaten the Destroyer in a straight fight. He always got killed whenever he faced it head on. He won by attacking the body or expelling the spirit in control of the armor.

Ultron cannot hurt the Destroyer. It's taken skyfather level power to fight it head on. Nothing Ultron does will have the slightest effect on the armor. Which has matter manip, and the visor beam. That beam has cleaved Mjolnir and other insanely durable objects, adamantium won't be a problem.

The Destroyer's beam should easily disintegrate the adamantium, its much weaker hand beams carved through Mjolnir like a knife through butter and Mjolnir is at least as hard as adamantium (I think Thor was able to dent it once using Mjolnir), and the visor beam removes matter from existence

Thors hammer is not as strong as Adamantium, uru can be damaged and re-melted and reformed over and over again. The elves that make uru weapons on asgard have no problem melting it down time and time again, give them a piece of Adamantium and watch them look crazy... PS. Ultron has a D beam also.

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
um thor strike a bar of adamantium with his hammer and small piece broke off so yeah it is break

btw your forgetting Hulk who cracked Ultrons armor - with his fist

oh yeah and about u sayin u can "dent" steel with wood...lol...you can bend a steel bar if u hit it hard enuff with wood bat or something like that (and btw the wood gonna get damaged too) but thats got nothing to do with mjolnir vs adamantium or caps shield. mjolnir put dent in adamantium @ the impact point and the hammer itself wuz intact

diamond can scratch ruby but ruby cant scratch diamond (try it and its the ruby that get damaged)

hey its that simple : if u say adamantium > magic uru then its like sayin earth > asgard

Originally posted by h1a8
Give me the issue #. I'm pretty sure I have it. The one I have shows Thor barely putting a dent in it with no breaks at all. Remember every instance of adamantium being damage was retconned to secondary adamantium. Only two instances were not (Thor and Hulk).

True. This may be the only instance where a break occurred. But even though Klaw had a portion of the Beyonder's power we can't be sure that this Ultron copy was made of true adamantium (could have been a weaker copy). Evidence points to this since otherwise we would get many contradictions.

usualy its the Wolverine folx who say it wasnt the true Ultron
the retconned ultron was the one where wonderman crushed its skull with his bear hands - THAT was 2nd adamantium

Know that Pressure equals Force divided by Area P=F/A means that a piece of paper can cut through my stronger flesh.

btw cut off a thin piece o skin/flesh & try to make it cut paper. lol
flesh is tougher but not harder

It also means that a sledge hammer made of wood can dent and break some very strong steel without the slightest damage it the wood.

but thats got nothing to do with trying damaging a steel BAR with wood hammer (enuff hits and theres gonna be no more hammer ^^)

the bar was smaller then thors hammer. so with pressure & all that if the bar was harder it woudlve taken off piece of the hammer (and best case he wouldve BEND the bar, not dented it)

A simply iron sledge hammer can shatter diamonds.

Earth>Asgard doesn't logically follow from Adamantium>magical Uru.

Originally posted by james2099
Thors hammer is not as strong as Adamantium, uru can be damaged and re-melted and reformed over and over again. The elves that make uru weapons on asgard have no problem melting it down time and time again, give them a piece of Adamantium and watch them look crazy... PS. Ultron has a D beam also.

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
an Avenger issue iirc

nope your wrong
the hammer can BEND the steel (if its a bar or something) or even break it in 2 jus like a strong trained guy can bend it with his hands
(even then the hammer aint gonna be full intact)

but thats got nothing to do with trying damaging a steel BAR with wood hammer (enuff hits and theres gonna be no more hammer ^^)

the bar was smaller then thors hammer. so with pressure & all that if the bar was harder it woudlve taken off piece of the hammer (and best case he wouldve BEND the bar, not dented it)

yeah but theres gonna be damage on the sledge at impact point

yup it does if true adamantium > magic uru then it woud mean earth > asgard
in fact that woud place earth tech > skyfather magic. lol

Originally posted by h1a8
Avengers vol1. #66
"I smote the metal cylinder before me-- with all my might!
Yet,'tis scarcely dented!"

got th scan btw?

Thus a weaker bending or breaking the stronger doesn't mean that the weaker is indeed stronger.

basically if bar was harder then hammer then hammer couldve bend the bar in the middle (maybe) but certainly not dented it

A metal bar smaller than a wooden sledge hammer can be bent with a strike from the hammer without the slightest damage to the hammer. Also it is impossible to determine whether Thor's hammer had the slightest mark or scratch from striking the bar. A weaker can indeed damage a stronger without any damage to the weaker. This is a fact.

Race 'A' having some type of tech greater than race 'B' doesn't mean that race A's tech, as a whole, is greater than B's. To assume so is a clear fallacy in logic.

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
and hammer wasnt dented @ all

got th scan btw?

a well-trained guy can bend or even break steel bar in 2 with his bear hands
now lets see the guy cut thru that same bar with his hand karate-style. lol

basically if bar was harder then hammer then hammer couldve bend the bar in the middle (maybe) but certainly not dented it[/B][/QUOTE] A dent is a bend.

again this depend on type of damage
yo own fact in yo previous post about "pressure" & all that means if the bar was smaller then the hammer shoudlve been damaged & not the bar

if earths best material is > asgards best material then its symbolic it means earth > asgard. its that simple

Originally posted by h1a8
A dent is a bend.

if u dent something then u dig hole or groove in it (so localy u make the stuff denser!!! either that or u take small piece off it)

thx 4 the scan btw. 2 bad they dont show detail
but notice theres tiny pieces of metal flyin just when hes hitting the bar

(btw he only held hammer with 1 hand wtf?!)

Thickness plays a role in resisting damage.

False. There is more to compare than strength of materials. Strength of Adamantium could be the only thing that trumps Asgard's metals. But Asgard could astronomically trump Earth in everything else. You know Uru isn't chosen as Asgard's chief metal for its durability alone. Its chosen for its combination of exceptional ability to hold enchantments and great durability. I doubt adamantium can hold any enchantments.

also "ablity to hold enchantment" is all useless if the result is still weaker then adamantium. especially since mjolnir is suppose to be a weapon (damage things) weapons are suppose to be harder then what they hit

so if plain admantium tougher then magic uru then clearly it mean earth tougher then asgard, like i said its symbolic (imagine if skyfather magic cant make something thats harder then non-magic-enhance earth stuff! this woud place earth > skyfather level! :/ )

heres from official site

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Destroyer_(construct)

"The Destroyer armor is made from an unknown metal found on Asgard and was enchanted by Odin to make that metal harder than uru, the metal Mjolnir is made of, or adamantium and almost totally indestructible"

not rilly answer to 'uru vs adamanitum' (in fact they place "uru" and "adamantium" side by side like their equal!) but at least we know that whatever Destroyer armor is made of its harder then adamantium (and uru)

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
not rilly

if u dent something then u dig hole or groove in it (so localy u make the stuff denser!!! either that or u take small piece off it)

(btw he only held hammer with 1 hand wtf?!)
yeah OVERALL damage like bending or breaking the thing in 2, not LOCAL damage @ impact point. otherwise this completely contradict yo previous statment about pressure

(anything can hold enchantments even marchmallow. lol. magic is magic. thats how they make golems even outa plain rock)

also "ablity to hold enchantment" is all useless if the result is still weaker then adamantium. especially since mjolnir is suppose to be a weapon (damage things) weapons are suppose to be harder then what they hit

so if plain admantium tougher then magic uru then clearly it mean earth tougher then asgard, like i said its symbolic (imagine if skyfather magic cant make something thats harder then non-magic-enhance earth stuff! this woud place earth > skyfather level! :/ )

My argument is that we don't know if the Destoyer's beams can put a hole through Ultron. I disagree that mystical Uru=true adamantium since it can be melted, reshaped, etc. and adamantium can't. Even if the Destroyer can dent Ultron, Ultron would simply reform the dent to anew. Destroyer must be able to break through to win.

Wolverine's claws can cut through anything provided he has the strength to wield them through. He once tried to cut Colossus (a weaker metal) and didn't even manage to put a scratch on him.

With all that said, Ultron definitely can't win. But whether or not Destroyer can win depends on the writers opinions on how strong the Destroyer's attacks are (since there isn't enough evidence available).

Originally posted by h1a8
Then Thor had to have struck the bar with the edge of his hammer. Otherwise the small dent couldn't have arisen from a larger striking area.

This is where you are cleary wrong. OHUTMU says the Uru was chosen for it's excellent ability to hold enchantments along with its great durability. Uru can be reshaped, melted, etc. while Adamantium can't. Nearly everything can hold enchantments but some better than others. I doubt that adamantium can hold all the exotic powers (including the power of Thor himself) of Mjolnir.

Now on Earth we use different metals for different purposes. So us using a softer metal only means that this particular metal achieves our goal better. Also we can't even hope to put the type of enchantments on anything the way Odin can. I don't know about you but I would rather have Mjolnir with all its powers than an adamantium hammer with little to no powers.

My argument is that we don't know if the Destoyer's beams can put a hole through Ultron. I disagree that mystical Uru=true adamantium since it can be melted, reshaped, etc. and adamantium can't. Even if the Destroyer can dent Ultron, Ultron would simply reform the dent to anew. Destroyer must be able to break through to win.

oh btw if destroyer beam cant damage ultron armor then its like your sayin that earth >> asgard (skyfather firepower cant beat adamantium? lol then skyfathers woud be like flies next to S.H.I.E.L.D. just send in earth ship with adamantium hull and blast asgard to bits, so called asgard "gods" would be powerless. lol)
but in official bio it says destroyer beams can destroy any known substance, so there

also how fast can Ultron repair armor anyway? not instantanous iirc (by the time it repair a hole Destroyers gonna put more holes in it then fry the circuits)

also NORMAL uru can be melted but were talkin about MAGIC uru. show me where mjolnir gets melted by something that cant melt adamantium
I agree that normal uru must be a bit weaker then true adamantium 🙂

Wolverine's claws can cut through anything provided he has the strength to wield them through. He once tried to cut Colossus (a weaker metal) and didn't even manage to put a scratch on him.

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
yeah but then it means hammer scratched the bar. so the bar shouldve broke off piece of hammers edge too which it didnt
its like diamond scratching ruby or saphir it can only scratch it cuz its harder

if adamantium is harder (and it is harder then PLAIN uru) then it should able to hold everything uru can (strong metal means it can hold strong magic so that the metal can channel all that magic without melting

btw whos OHOTMU?

nope mjolnir is 1st foremost a HAMMER so its suppose to hit things (otherwise why not make walking cane out of it lol). this means asgardians shouldve given it their best. this mean the main purpose of the enchatment shoud be to make hammer harder
if enchnated uru was not as tough as adamantium then basicly its crap, id rather have adamantium hammer

uh who says it cant
the best we get to see adamantium is against core of the sun (yellow star) but how dyou know how hot asgardians can make their fire? their suppose to be skyfather-level u know

oh btw if destroyer beam cant damage ultron armor then its like your sayin that earth >> asgard (skyfather firepower cant beat adamantium? lol then skyfathers woud be like flies next to S.H.I.E.L.D. just send in earth ship with adamantium hull and blast asgard to bits, so called asgard "gods" would be powerless. lol)
but in official bio it says destroyer beams can destroy any known substance, so there

also how fast can Ultron repair armor anyway? not instantanous iirc (by the time it repair a hole Destroyers gonna put more holes in it then fry the circuits)

also NORMAL uru can be melted but were talkin about MAGIC uru. show me where mjolnir gets melted by something that cant melt adamantium
I agree that normal uru must be a bit weaker then true adamantium 🙂

IMO wolvie shouldve at least scratch colossus esp with his superstrenght
human (normal human eh no superstrenght) can scratch ruby with a diamond. yet diamond is only tad harder then ruby (10/10 for diamond vs 9/10 for ruby on moh scale of hardness)

Originally posted by h1a8
It seems you are now arguing just to not be wrong. That is my cue to stop and let you have the last word. Why is it so hard to be wrong or just plain objective? Hitting something with the edge of something else doesn't necessarily have to produce a scratch. To say otherwise is just plain ridiculous.

and yeah if the edge that hits is harder then what it hits then it makes a scratch if u hit it strong enuff - thats kinda how they compare hardness in RL u know

What the hell does hardness have to do with the ability to hold enchantments. You know real magic doesn't exist right? There doesn't have to be any logic when magic is concerned in comics.Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe.

Then you are a fool. You would lose everytime to the enchanted hammer. Uru is still practically indestructible. So it is still capable of smashing through anything (even adamantium). So why not have the extra enchantments to go along with it.

if the hammer aint as hard as another plain (non magic) metal hammer even despite magic then that prove the magic enchantment is cheap crap

now on other hand u gotta point about uru vs enchatment : uru can have many enchantments aaaaand one of these is...making uru harder then anything else! now THAT woud make more sense dont it? ^^

u admit asgardians can enchant something to make it harder then anything else (they did it with destroyer) so why do u think they cant do it with the hammer hmm?

Marvel iirc says it can't.

Odin can just teleport them away.

If it says that about Destroyer beams then you may have a point. See I get people to use real evidence to support their claims and not mickey mouse ones. I am the KMC trainer. I teach people to debate effectively.

also u saying uru can be melted is BS were talking about magicaly enhanced uru, not the plane stuff
maybe "KMC trainer" himself need more training? 😛

In my original argument I wasn't saying that Adamantium is necessarily stronger than Magic Uru. I'm just saying that there isn't enough evidence to know. We have only speculation (which isn't canon).

Also iirc Marvel showed all the enchantments Odin placed on Mjolnir. None were to increase its durability.

True. Maybe Colossus is harder than we think. 🙁

destroyer wins 10/10

(no wall of text needed)

Originally posted by h1a8
Also iirc Marvel showed all the enchantments Odin placed on Mjolnir. None were to increase its durability. 🙁

The destroyer wins.