A prayer for the world... and the kmc members

Originally posted by Quincy Jones
Well, since He IS the Creator, it is He that deserves the praise and glory, not the creation...

We know nothing about God, or even if there is one, and the fact that there are so many different kinds, puts it in mythical classification by association.

Therefore it's ludicrous to claim "he" deserves the praise. Who deserves what kind of praise for doing what, and should we devote our life to it? We must definately not devote our lives to something as fanciful as God.

Chogyam Trungpa:

Spirituality is about the present, nothing else, just here and now. We realise how constant and precise we interact with everything else, and that this is true for everything. This is actually quite scary so we borrow from the past and invite from the future, and maybe that's why we seek religion. It's quite ironic...and very funny indeed.

Originally posted by Quincy Jones
Unfortunate, but predictable.

don't waste your skills of precognition here!

go, go, there are murders to be solved and missing kittens to be returned!

Originally posted by Quincy Jones
Unfortunate, but predictable.

I dont expect the aetheists of kmc (or any in particular) to be able to understand the concept of salvation. To not oppose wisdom with mockery, just as the soldiers who crucified Jesus did when they said, "If you really are the Son of God, save yourself" or when they put a crown of thorns on His head and said, "behold, the king of the Jews"

Its happening all over again, but on a much larger scale this time.

Father forgive them, for they know not what they do. They really dont...

Do you hate atheists? It is very easy for an atheist to understand salvation. Many atheists started off in life as Christians, and have come to realize that they were lied too over the years.

Can you understand how what works for you does not work for everyone?

Originally posted by Quincy Jones
Well, since He IS the Creator, it is He that deserves the praise and glory, not the creation...

Any being that is a "He" is limited and cannot be the Creator.

I think my favorite part of all of this is the part where you pray for salvation from the devil because he's clearly working in KMC members.

Ah well, so much for the whole "don't judge people" thing.

Originally posted by inimalist
indeed

condescending remarks about my worth are normally those that make me the happiest

Well, is he doing it to make him feel better and act aloof (Jesus say bad) or is he doing it out of genuine hope and desire for your salvation, even if he is totally wrong and deluded its the intention that counts.

Quite unrelated but... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7744282.stm

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Well, is he doing it to make him feel better and act aloof (Jesus say bad) or is he doing it out of genuine hope and desire for your salvation, even if he is totally wrong and deluded its the intention that counts.

Quite unrelated but... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7744282.stm

I think he is doing it, because that is what he thinks he should do.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I believe that the Universe (and beyond) are so amazingly complex that to even wager a guess as to what it really is bascally ridiculous. I do put faith in the scientific method, due to it being time and time again being shown to work and help advance human society. As such I don't see any prove within this Universe as to a creator that ever interfered. Meaning, I do, pretty strongly, believe that Christianity is nonsense. You have to make quite a few additions and "that's just metaphorical" to make it even fly theoretically. I am not saying there is no creator, I am just saying I don't even understand what the hell "I" am, why I believe I am the same I was 7 years ago when everything has absolutely changed...the world is extremely complex and wild guesses and blind belief are to me the most idiotic approach towards understanding it. You have exactly one belief system....there are an endless amount of different belief systems, and there is NOTHING, not one piece of empirical evidence to suggest that yours is in any ways superior to any other.

So, I am agnostic, I guess...and atheist when it comes to most of the Christian Gods as people belief in them. So, I believe I am superior to you in my view as I don't claim to know the truth, as I realize the inherent doubt a human must have in a universe where all he has are his five senses and the ability to compute information...especially when you witness the senses being jaded and conclusions that have been evaluated to be incorrect.

And please try to get all you want to say into one post. We have an edit function for you to use, quintuple posting is frowned upon. Thanks.

Well, I must say that this response does at least possess some class. But on a more focussed note, what you have said, as I would have guessed, contains flawed information which Im not sure is on your part or by some other individual's misguidance.

In Christianity, ther isnt any so-called "guessing" as you have put it. All of the Christian doctrine is based on the bible, which unlike other religious documents, is not based on mythology. Its about the creation of the heavens and the earth, about the trials and tribulations of the Jews, the arrival of the Saviour, the redemption of mankind, and the end of the world.

There isnt any "blind belief", as you've so over-confidently put it. In the bible, Jesus really had to prove who He was. He performed miracles, healed the sick, raised the dead, and made the ultimate sacrifice by suffering a brutal agonising death. Around the era of Christ, word of Him had spread from the middle east to asia and europe.

Christ's existence and crucifixion have been documented and there is much proof of people being healed from cancer, brain tumors and even aids because of His divine intervention. I tried to post some links but since im quite new here, im not allowed to do so.

And yes, the universe is a really large place which just shows how powerful God is. I mean, what do you expect from an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent Being of His stature?

And by the way, I dont hate aetheists. I believe everyone has the potential to be better people. People have a right to believe whatever they want, as long as they know what the consequences of their decisions are.

In my opinion, life as an aetheist is quite easy. I mean, you feel no remorse when you deceive others, when you steal, when you cheat, when you slander, when you insult, when you provide pornographers with more business by watching videos of indecent content. Its easy to do immoral things without guilt when you believe noone is watching.

I can see the appeal of aetheism.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I mean, they believe that humans are fundamentally flawed- that people are naturally bad.

I don't know what other Christian denominations say but from a Catholic perspective though we are fundamentally flawed, we are innately good. The two have no correlation to each other.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Religion detaches us from the natural world and takes away our responsibilities by saying God controls everything.

Again only from a catholic standpoint. We recognize the stewardship within each human being, and with this stewardship comes the responsibility of taking care of life in all her forms. Nature is (to say the least) a part of life, and we are not only to meant to take care of it but enjoy it as well.

Originally posted by Quincy Jones
In my opinion, life as an aetheist is quite easy. I mean, you feel no remorse when you deceive others, when you steal, when you cheat, when you slander, when you insult, when you provide pornographers with more business by watching videos of indecent content. Its easy to do immoral things without guilt when you believe noone is watching.

That's entirely false. You're a very deluded individual.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
That's entirely false. You're a very deluded individual.

A victim of the propaganda, which not only deludes but also makes him feel superior to other people...

Originally posted by DigiMark007
That's entirely false. You're a very deluded individual.

Denial is the ultimate trait of a liar. Besides, you're not actually making a rebuttal here, you're just straight up throwing an insult at the issue.

I would like to say with absolute honesty that if there was no truth in Jesus Christ, I would stop being a Christian. How about you? If Jesus Christ really is who the bible says He is, would you humble yourself before Him?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
A victim of the propaganda, which not only deludes but also makes him feel superior to other people...

Tell that to Martin Luthor King. It was because of his relationship with Christ that he was able to harness the courage and will for fight for true justice, equality, human rights, and racial union.

He sounds more like an agent of truth, peace and freedom rather than a victim of propaganda to me.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
A victim of the propaganda, which not only deludes but also makes him feel superior to other people...

While you dismiss the willful and intentional stupidity of some who subscribe to your perspective, you also do what you're accusing others of doing. Quincy Jones and Jesus Is Alive are idiots; to this you have to agree. But saying that those who don't adhere to their strict interpretation and ignorant interpretation of the rhetoric is not serving their detractors, it's only bolstering the delusion you profess to know so much more about than they do.

Originally posted by Quincy Jones
Tell that to Martin Luthor King. It was because of his relationship with Christ that he was able to harness the courage and will for fight for true justice, equality, human rights, and racial union.

He sounds more like an agent of truth, peace and freedom rather than a victim of propaganda to me.

Are you talking about Martin Luther or Martin Luther King? You do know the difference, don't you? How about all the people who said the same things as Dr. Martin Luther "the King" and were not followers of Jesus? Oh yeah, you've been calling them terrorists and Muslims for the last 40 years.

It's just too bad that your version of "justice, equality, human rights and racial unification" are drastically skewed from those of Jesus'. And if you think you can speak absolutely for the supposed son of god, then why can't somone else? Too bad that someone else has been for millenia; like Martin Luther, Jesus himself, Thomas Jefferson, Ghandi and Malcom X? You've really got to get over yourself before you can consider anyone else. Sadly, you don't and that leads you to only consider everyone who looks and acts like you. More sadly, that's what leads to the non-conformity that caused people like Jesus and Martin-Luther to behave as they did. You're really such a failure to Jesus' ideals that he'd vomit if he met you. After all, we're talking about a guy that spent all his time around prostitutes, single men and lepers. Your world view is terribly skewed and the Jesus we find in the pages of the new testament is disappointed and disgusted in your perspective of the world and all the people who inhabit it.

Originally posted by Quincy Jones
Lord Jesus Christ, I thank you for this day you have given us. I thank you for my life and the lives of all the people in the world. I thank you for dying on the cross for our sins, Lord Jesus. We are simply unworthy of your salvation, Father.

Lord, I pray that you give us the strength to resist satan, for I know that he is very much alive and working in this forum. I pray that you give us courage, so that we may look him in the face without fear. And Lord, I pray that you give us the wisdom to make right and fruitful decisions.

Lord Jesus Christ, help us refrain from saying or posting stupid things in this forum. I pray that you give us time to humble ourselves, Lord, and not be fearful of the truth. Lord, I also pray that you forgive us for our sins, Father, and guide us on the right path to Your Glory.

All these things I pray in Jesus Christ's name.

Amen.

Originally spoken by the Man himself

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: “God, I thank you that I am not like other men - robbers, evildoers, adulterers - or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.”

But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, “God, have mercy on me, a sinner.”

I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. -- Luke 18:10-14

Originally posted by Quincy Jones
Denial is the ultimate trait of a liar. Besides, you're not actually making a rebuttal here, you're just straight up throwing an insult at the issue.

I would like to say with absolute honesty that if there was no truth in Jesus Christ, I would stop being a Christian. How about you? If Jesus Christ really is who the bible says He is, would you humble yourself before Him?

No! Because his followers reflect the true nature of their beliefs. This makes your god seem to be very evil.

Originally posted by Quincy Jones
Well, I must say that this response does at least possess some class. But on a more focussed note, what you have said, as I would have guessed, contains flawed information which Im not sure is on your part or by some other individual's misguidance.

In Christianity, ther isnt any so-called "guessing" as you have put it. All of the Christian doctrine is based on the bible, which unlike other religious documents, is not based on mythology. Its about the creation of the heavens and the earth, about the trials and tribulations of the Jews, the arrival of the Saviour, the redemption of mankind, and the end of the world.

I am sorry, but that isn't correct. For one the Bible gets interpreted very differently by different people, which leads to the multitude of denominations there are in Christianity. To guess which is the exact interpretations, is indeed guessing. And that's not even talking about Catholics and Mormons.

Originally posted by Quincy Jones
There isnt any "blind belief", as you've so over-confidently put it. In the bible, Jesus really had to prove who He was. He performed miracles, healed the sick, raised the dead, and made the ultimate sacrifice by suffering a brutal agonising death. Around the era of Christ, word of Him had spread from the middle east to asia and europe.

But he didn't prove it to anyone here. You don't believe it because he proved it to you, you believe that the book is correct to begin with, which there is no evidence for, as such it is blind guessing. On top of it nothing Jesus did in the book proves he is God, you could just as well assume he is mildly powerful sorcerer. If you'd believe Superman Comic Books to be correct, you'd probably worship him as he has quite a few more feats (and resurrections) under his belt...and yes, within the framework of the Comics he has proven. In fact, in fiction there are many more heroes with more impressive feats, the only difference that you and many others choose to believe the 2000 year old book as true.

Originally posted by Quincy Jones
Christ's existence and crucifixion have been documented and there is much proof of people being healed from cancer, brain tumors and even aids because of His divine intervention. I tried to post some links but since im quite new here, im not allowed to do so.

Documented within the bible. Other sources are at best very shady, at worst non-existent. But even if I gve you his existence and cruxifixation, it does not follow that he is divine..which again, is a "leap of faith".

Originally posted by Quincy Jones
And yes, the universe is a really large place which just shows how powerful God is. I mean, what do you expect from an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent Being of His stature?

That isn't based on anything. The Universe being large and very hard to comprehend doesn't prove the existence of God, much rather it makes one think that such simplistic terms as our minds can define might not be sufficient in any way to describe it. There are likely so many more possibilities than just God did it or even chance, to claim to know the truth is ludicrious. I guess that's where faith comes in for Christians, it is a way of saying "I know" even though there's no evidence.

Originally posted by Quincy Jones
And by the way, I dont hate aetheists. I believe everyone has the potential to be better people. People have a right to believe whatever they want, as long as they know what the consequences of their decisions are.

You insulted and generalized them. Whether you hate them or not, you seem ignorant and bigoted towards them. As for the consequences comment, I don't think anyone actually knows the consequences of their actions in the long run. Short term, maybe.

Originally posted by Quincy Jones
In my opinion, life as an aetheist is quite easy. I mean, you feel no remorse when you deceive others, when you steal, when you cheat, when you slander, when you insult, when you provide pornographers with more business by watching videos of indecent content. Its easy to do immoral things without guilt when you believe noone is watching.

That is incorrect. A conscience as well as moral frameworks are not exclusive to Religion. Atheists do very much feel remorse, but, one might, unfairly, argue that Christians do not. They do not feel sorry for their actions, but rather fear punishment from their "master"...

Originally posted by Quincy Jones
I can see the appeal of aetheism.

I think you mistake atheism there. Unless you are a very convinced nihilist or a psychopath, most atheist actually are limited just as much as Religious people. Which is why you don't see a plague of atheist crime, as they are generally just as well adjusted as Christians.

Originally posted by Quincy Jones

I would like to say with absolute honesty that if there was no truth in Jesus Christ, I would stop being a Christian. How about you? If Jesus Christ really is who the bible says He is, would you humble yourself before Him?

That is hard to say, if he explains to me his points very exactly and I do agree with his moral framework yes. There's of course the addition of fear, which might very well make this a "Morton's Fork", as in either I stay true to my believes and be tortured in hell for eternity or I submit to Jesus and sell out all the morals and believes I hold. Though, I always figured that, God being all knowing, I wouldn't have a chance either way, since I personally have not much option. I can't make myself belief that a) God exists and b) that the morals of any Christian Denomination are desirable...as such it is actually impossible for me to "accept Jesus as my saviour" and I am doomed to hell without a chance for me to redeem myself...another reason, why I don't believe in a good God anyways.

A problem I see is that I wouldn't know which sect of Christianity to follow, I assume you believe Catholicism to be nonsense?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Well, is he doing it to make him feel better and act aloof (Jesus say bad) or is he doing it out of genuine hope and desire for your salvation, even if he is totally wrong and deluded its the intention that counts.

Quite unrelated but... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7744282.stm

my definition of immorality almost hinges on the fact that people think they are doing good...

I get what you are saying, though, so ya... I get he probably thinks what he is doing is good. I guess if I were as mature as I should be, I just wouldn't have said anything.

However, the arrogance of the "prayer" for my "salvation" somewhat rubs me the wrong way. One might think an omnipotent being would know how to make a better pitch?

Originally posted by inimalist
my definition of immorality almost hinges on the fact that people think they are doing good...

I get what you are saying, though, so ya... I get he probably thinks what he is doing is good. I guess if I were as mature as I should be, I just wouldn't have said anything.

However, the arrogance of the "prayer" for my "salvation" somewhat rubs me the wrong way. One might think an omnipotent being would know how to make a better pitch?

Pride, the sin that made the angels fall.