Orion,Thor,Wonder Woman,Beta Ray Bill vs. Superman,Silver Surfer, Hal Jordan, Sentry

Originally posted by quanchi112
How is Sentry the weak link?

I dont really see Surfer taking out Thor though. I am using common sense. She can hang with Supes and Sentry but she loses the vast majority against both. Without her hiding and fleeing like I have said a 1,000 times she got dominated. Wrist break,temporary ko. Now,when she started hiding and such she did alright but to stand there and face Superman head on she would lose. Dude,she tricked him and snuck up behind him and bashed his eardrums in. Then she used animals to aid her in fleeing.

Quanchi, I'm sorry to say this but you are crazy. I have explained to you a thousand times and keep repeating the same things but its not getting through.

1st thing, in that fight superman gained the upper advantage in the beginning by blitzing a none aware wonder woman flying her to the sun which lead to her being punched back to earth. When she woke up AFTER BEING SNEAKED BY SUPERMAN, she used her speed (which is a part of her powers) and crushed supermans ears. Now if you want to call wonder woman using her speed as trickery then its safe to say that superman using his heat vision is trickery also. She then gained the upper hand but he grabbed her arm and broke it. She put her bracers over the injury and pressed her attack which lead to superman on the ground. SINCE SHE WASNT THERE TO KILL HIM, JUST TO GET TO MAX LORD, she decide to send some birds supermans way which would buy her the time to flee BECAUSE SUPERMAN HAD A FLASH BACK OF WONDER WOMAN/DOOMSDAYDAY KILLLING LOIS AND SHE KNEW THAT SUPERMAN WASNT GOING TO LET HER GET TO MAX LORD UNLESS HE WAS DEAD WHICH WASNT PART OF HER MISSION.

She then gets to max lord castle but like she expected superman would follow her which led to her cutting his throat.

Superman had no advantage in that fight except the time when he SNUCK UP ON HER WITH A BLITZ FLYING HER IN SPACE. Besides that wonder woman had a clear advantage by USING HER POWERS TO THE BEST OF HER ABILITY.

Theres nothing ot suggest that wonder woman would get dominated by superman. Lets not forget, wonder woman stalemate and was actually dominating amazo who is>>>superman and wonder woman did great against titus who took out the entire jla and wonder woman also did good against konvikt who also took out the jla. She is in his league and again I give her a small majority over him due to her skills and basically being everything superman is besides possessing any out put of energy. She has proven that her reflexes is above his and has also proven that she is a much better fighter. I dont see a reason on why not to give her a majority.

Originally posted by carver9
Quanchi, I'm sorry to say this but you are crazy. I have explained to you a thousand times and keep repeating the same things but its not getting through.

1st thing, in that fight superman gained the upper advantage in the beginning by blitzing a none aware wonder woman flying her to the sun which lead to her being punched back to earth. When she woke up AFTER BEING SNEAKED BY SUPERMAN, she used her speed (which is a part of her powers) and crushed supermans ears. Now if you want to call wonder woman using her speed as trickery then its safe to say that superman using his heat vision is trickery also. She then gained the upper hand but he grabbed her arm and broke it. She put her bracers over the injury and pressed her attack which lead to superman on the ground. SINCE SHE WASNT THERE TO KILL HIM, JUST TO GET TO MAX LORD, she decide to send some birds supermans way which would buy her the time to flee BECAUSE SUPERMAN HAD A FLASH BACK OF WONDER WOMAN/DOOMSDAY KILLLIING LOIS AND SHE KNEW THAT SUPERMAN WASNT GOING TO LET HER GET TO MAX LORD UNLESS HE WAS DEAD WHICH WASNT PART OF HER MISSION.

She then gets to max lord castle but like she expected superman would follow her which led to her cutting his throat.

Superman had no advantage in that fight except the time when he SNUCK UP ON HER WITH A BLITZ FLYING HER IN SPACE. Besides that wonder woman had a clear advantage by USING HER POWERS TO THE BEST OF HER ABILITY.

Theres nothing ot suggest that wonder woman would get dominated by superman. Lets not forget, wonder woman stalemate and was actually dominating amazo who is>>>superman and wonder woman did great against titus who took out the entire xmen and wonder woman also did good against konvikt who also took out the jla. She is in his league and again I give her a small majority over him due to her skills and basically being everything superman is besides possessing any out put of energy. She has proven that her reflexes is above his and has also proven that she is a much better fighter. I dont see a reason on why not to give her a majority.

completely and utterly disagree.

Originally posted by Raoul
completely and utterly disagree.

Lol, I knew you would be the 1st to post to my comment. What reasons on my post do you disagree with, everything that I said and wrote in that post was the truth; I didnt add or take anything away from that story.

If it make things better I also think that wonder woman could get a majority over sentry and hal, along with hyperion, and others, superman isnt the only one, he just keep being brought up because quanchi keeps bringing him up. I want quanchi to ask me why I think that wonder woman would overwhelm sentry because a while back me and quanchi was like the only ones backing sentry up but I have a change of heart. I would give numerous of reasons on why (one of my favorite characters) sentry would get that ass whipped.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol, I knew you would be the 1st to post to my comment. What reasons on my post do you disagree with, everything that I said and wrote in that post was the truth; I didnt add or take anything away from that story.

If it make things better I also think that wonder woman could get a majority over sentry and hal, along with hyperion, and others, superman isnt the only one, he just keep being brought up because quanchi keeps bringing him up. I want quanchi to ask me why I think that wonder woman would overwhelm sentry because a while back me and quanchi was like the only ones backing sentry up but I have a change of heart. I would give numerous of reasons on why (one of my favorite characters) sentry would get that ass whipped.

the fact that you claim it as the truth, rather than your own interpretation of it...

and no, i personally think hal would get a slight majority over diana...

Originally posted by Raoul
the fact that you claim it as the truth, rather than your own interpretation of it...

and no, i personally think hal would get a slight majority over diana...

I claim WHAT as truth, the story or the fact that I think that wonder woman should get a majority because story wise I didnt add anything to it, I said it just like it happened.

I dont expect people to say that wonder woman would get a majority over a lot of top tiers because again she is underrated but if people actually take the time and look at the things that she has done then they would get a grasp on how powerful she is. She has some boring comics but if a good writer ever grab a hold of her she could be one of the greatest top tiers out there (that sounded a little fannish huh).

Originally posted by carver9
I claim WHAT as truth, the story or the fact that I think that wonder woman should get a majority because story wise I didnt add anything to it, I said it just like it happened.

most of your post is interpretation rather than fact... its your commentary on the fight, not the writers...

one example, you claim she was stunned the entire time up until he crashed her down to earth. that's not fact, that's your interpretation of it.

I dont expect people to say that wonder woman would get a majority over a lot of top tiers because again she is underrated but if people actually take the time and look at the things that she has done then they would get a grasp on how powerful she is. She has some boring comics but if a good writer ever grab a hold of her she could be one of the greatest top tiers out there (that sounded a little fannish huh).

i do read wonder woman comics. i have read a lot of wonder woman, and as impressive as she is, DC still writes her as being < clark whenever they meet.

the sacrifice fight is the most abused and overused piece of evidence when it comes to superman v wonder woman debates, even though they've fought against each other on other occasions... if he'd been in his right mind, the sacrifice fight would have gone very differently...

Originally posted by Raoul
most of your post is interpretation rather than fact... its your commentary on the fight, not the writers...

one example, you claim she was stunned the entire time up until he crashed her down to earth. that's not fact, that's your interpretation of it.

i do read wonder woman comics. i have read a lot of wonder woman, and as impressive as she is, DC still writes her as being < clark whenever they meet.

the sacrifice fight is the most abused and overused piece of evidence when it comes to superman v wonder woman debates, even though they've fought against each other on other occasions... if he'd been in his right mind, the sacrifice fight would have gone very differently...

I agree with this statement, I know that the fight would have went different but the thing that you have to think about is that superman punches was his ALL, he wasnt holding back, Supermans heat vision was his ALL, he wasnt holding back, along with his ice breath and wonder woman withstood ALL of it while holding back.

So the question is, what is a right minded clark going to bring to the table that a amped clark that wasnt holding back. Does a clark that is in his right mind possess more power then a clark that isnt holding back and is amped. I agree, it would make him fight smarter but it would also decrease the level of his attacks, his punches wont be as strong, he heat vision wont be as powerful, etc....

Then you have to think about this, wonder woman was also holding back, she wasnt giving it her all because she wasnt trying to hurt him. So if that fight was written any different, then we would have a superman that isnt giving it his all against wonder woman who is fighting to the best of her ability which would lead to the fight ending the same way.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree with this statement, I know that the fight would have went different but the thing that you have to think about is that superman punches was his ALL, he wasnt holding back, Supermans heat vision was his ALL, he wasnt holding back, along with his ice breath and wonder woman withstood ALL of it while holding back.

that in itself is interpretation.

So the question is, what is a right minded clark going to bring to the table that a amped clark that wasnt holding back. Does a clark that is in his right mind possess more power then a clark that isnt holding back and is amped. I agree, it would make him fight smarter but it would also decrease the level of his attacks, his punches wont be as strong, he heat vision wont be as powerful, etc....

it would be, actually. superman measures every punch, every blast of heat vision. he could be just as strong, and a hell of alot more focused.

a wide blast of engraged hv < a focused one that would lobotomise you.

he knows how to punch to do the maximum amount of damage. he was blinded by rage, and as such, wouldn't be half as effective as a fighter.

in that same arc, superman takes a breath, and smashes through one of john's constructs. john stewart is almost a top tier gl, and he knows superman. he would make a containment field designed to hold superman. superman fought smart, and pwned him. and the league.

if someone runs at someone else swinging wildly, it's not going to be half as effective as the guy that knows exactly where to hit you to do the most damage...

see, that's MY interpretation of the fight. i won't claim its fact, but its how i see it, and it's just as valid as what you claimed...

Originally posted by Raoul
that in itself is interpretation.

it would be, actually. superman measures every punch, every blast of heat vision. he could be just as strong, and a hell of alot more focused.

a wide blast of engraged hv < a focused one that would lobotomise you.

he knows how to punch to do the maximum amount of damage. he was blinded by rage, and as such, wouldn't be half as effective as a fighter.

in that same arc, superman takes a breath, and smashes through one of john's constructs. john stewart is almost a top tier gl, and he knows superman. he would make a containment field designed to hold superman. superman fought smart, and pwned him. and the league.

if someone runs at someone else swinging wildly, it's not going to be half as effective as the guy that knows exactly where to hit you to do the most damage...

see, that's MY interpretation of the fight. i won't claim its fact, but its how i see it, and it's just as valid as what you claimed...

Good post, and I agree (even though I still give wonder woman the majority. I gave my reasons on that and it didnt have anything to do with the fight that me and you are discussing.)

Originally posted by carver9
Good post, and I agree (even though I still give wonder woman the majority. I gave my reasons on that and it didnt have anything to do with the fight that me and you are discussing.)

neither does my superman argument, for the most part... him being angry and out of control lessens him as an effective fighter, imo, and i still think the only thing diana is close to his equal in is reflexes, and when i say equal, i mean able to keep up, not actually bang on equal... and of course, she's a superior fighter, but i don't see it as enough, as they two of them actually spar regularly...

for my money he's stronger, faster, more durable, and versatile enough to put her down at least 7/10...

Originally posted by carver9
Quanchi, I'm sorry to say this but you are crazy. I have explained to you a thousand times and keep repeating the same things but its not getting through.

1st thing, in that fight superman gained the upper advantage in the beginning by blitzing a none aware wonder woman flying her to the sun which lead to her being punched back to earth. When she woke up AFTER BEING SNEAKED BY SUPERMAN, she used her speed (which is a part of her powers) and crushed supermans ears. Now if you want to call wonder woman using her speed as trickery then its safe to say that superman using his heat vision is trickery also. She then gained the upper hand but he grabbed her arm and broke it. She put her bracers over the injury and pressed her attack which lead to superman on the ground. SINCE SHE WASNT THERE TO KILL HIM, JUST TO GET TO MAX LORD, she decide to send some birds supermans way which would buy her the time to flee BECAUSE SUPERMAN HAD A FLASH BACK OF WONDER WOMAN/DOOMSDAYDAY KILLLING LOIS AND SHE KNEW THAT SUPERMAN WASNT GOING TO LET HER GET TO MAX LORD UNLESS HE WAS DEAD WHICH WASNT PART OF HER MISSION.

She then gets to max lord castle but like she expected superman would follow her which led to her cutting his throat.

Superman had no advantage in that fight except the time when he SNUCK UP ON HER WITH A BLITZ FLYING HER IN SPACE. Besides that wonder woman had a clear advantage by USING HER POWERS TO THE BEST OF HER ABILITY.

Theres nothing ot suggest that wonder woman would get dominated by superman. Lets not forget, wonder woman stalemate and was actually dominating amazo who is>>>superman and wonder woman did great against titus who took out the entire jla and wonder woman also did good against konvikt who also took out the jla. She is in his league and again I give her a small majority over him due to her skills and basically being everything superman is besides possessing any out put of energy. She has proven that her reflexes is above his and has also proven that she is a much better fighter. I dont see a reason on why not to give her a majority.

Superman is stronger and more durable and thats all true. She could defeat him with her skill on a rare occasion or so. For the most part in a fair fight straight up he wins. Stronger and more durable wins this fight.

Certain people seem to hold onto that Sacrifice fight like it's gold, while dismissing the other times that Clark has casually beat/outmaneuvered Diana. (The Tenth Circle, A League of One, etc.)

And the one thing those people overlook; In Clark's mind he is seeing a very different battle than the one actually taking place and facing a very different opponent. Supes wins a lot because he is a smart, tactical fighter. If he thinks he is facing a raging monster, but is actually facing a trained Amazon, he loses that whole advantage.

I'm not overlooking the fact that Clark thought he was fighting someone else. Had he actually lost the fight, that would have been a major reason why. He would obviously fight Diana much differently than he would fight Doomsday.

What I think people are overlooking is the fact that while his tactics would obviously have been different, in his mind he was trying to bring down a character that is stronger and more durable than Diana. He was trying to lay Doomsday out. It wasn't skillful or clever what Clark was trying to do, but Diana took what he *did* dish out. You can't dismiss that.

Diana has steadily been receiving upgrades, but I don't look to Sacrifice as proving much of anything other than she was able to hold her own against a raging Supes. It tells us nothing about what would happen if Clark had been in his right mind OR had Diana not been holding back, nor had she not been caught off guard. It's all supposition

I just have a problem with Quan's description of what happened. Trickery? That would be using her superspeed to get a tactical advantage. Fleeing? That would be going after the real threat.

I think she is Clark's superior when it comes to reflexes (and so does she for that matter). It's her training that puts her over the edge, as she is clearly more skilled.

The conundrum I think Diana is in is that I'm not sure if she could KO him. She'd have to straight up kill him or lasso him. I do give Clark the slim majority over her, but it's not because of his strength or durability. It's because he has so many other powers that Diana has to guard against, which makes it that much more difficult for her to get the upper hand. That's all without her gear of course.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
I'm not overlooking the fact that Clark thought he was fighting someone else. Had he actually lost the fight, that would have been a major reason why. He would obviously fight Diana much differently than he would fight Doomsday.

What I think people are overlooking is the fact that while his tactics would obviously have been different, in his mind he was trying to bring down a character that is stronger and more durable than Diana. He was trying to lay Doomsday out. It wasn't skillful or clever what Clark was trying to do, but Diana took what he *did* dish out. You can't dismiss that.

Diana has steadily been receiving upgrades, but I don't look to Sacrifice as proving much of anything other than she was able to hold her own against a raging Supes. It tells us nothing about what would happen if Clark had been in his right mind OR had Diana not been holding back, nor had she not been caught off guard. It's all supposition

I just have a problem with Quan's description of what happened. Trickery? That would be using her superspeed to get a tactical advantage. Fleeing? That would be going after the real threat.

I think she is Clark's superior when it comes to reflexes (and so does she for that matter). It's her training that puts her over the edge, as she is clearly more skilled.

The conundrum I think Diana is in is that I'm not sure if she could KO him. She'd have to straight up kill him or lasso him. I do give Clark the slim majority over her, but it's not because of his strength or durability. It's because he has so many other powers that Diana has to guard against, which makes it that much more difficult for her to get the upper hand. That's all without her gear of course.

The point is she wont be sneaking up behind him in this fight.

Originally posted by quanchi112
She was hiding and using his frantic she must die state of mind to her advantage. She benefited from his state of mind which was clearly clouded by anger.

The point is she wont be sneaking up behind him in this fight.

And he benefited from her decision not to fight him all out, not to mention that he got the jump on her. Clark wasn't the only person at a disadvantage in that fight.

Hiding . . . he threw a boulder at her, which she smashed back at him and then used her speed to get behind. That doesn't meet any definition of hide that I know.

Anyway, I give Thor's team 6/10. Sentry's the weakest link for me.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
And he benefited from her decision not to fight him all out, not to mention that he got the jump on her. Clark wasn't the only person at a disadvantage in that fight.

Hiding . . . he threw a boulder at her, which she smashed back at him and then used her speed to get behind. That doesn't meet any definition of hide that I know.

Anyway, I give Thor's team 6/10. Sentry's the weakest link for me.

Sentry isnt the weakest link by any means.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
I'm not overlooking the fact that Clark thought he was fighting someone else. Had he actually lost the fight, that would have been a major reason why. He would obviously fight Diana much differently than he would fight Doomsday.

What I think people are overlooking is the fact that while his tactics would obviously have been different, in his mind he was trying to bring down a character that is stronger and more durable than Diana. He was trying to lay Doomsday out. It wasn't skillful or clever what Clark was trying to do, but Diana took what he *did* dish out. You can't dismiss that.

Diana has steadily been receiving upgrades, but I don't look to Sacrifice as proving much of anything other than she was able to hold her own against a raging Supes. It tells us nothing about what would happen if Clark had been in his right mind OR had Diana not been holding back, nor had she not been caught off guard. It's all supposition

I just have a problem with Quan's description of what happened. Trickery? That would be using her superspeed to get a tactical advantage. Fleeing? That would be going after the real threat.

I think she is Clark's superior when it comes to reflexes (and so does she for that matter). It's her training that puts her over the edge, as she is clearly more skilled.

The conundrum I think Diana is in is that I'm not sure if she could KO him. She'd have to straight up kill him or lasso him. I do give Clark the slim majority over her, but it's not because of his strength or durability. It's because he has so many other powers that Diana has to guard against, which makes it that much more difficult for her to get the upper hand. That's all without her gear of course.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
And he benefited from her decision not to fight him all out, not to mention that he got the jump on her. Clark wasn't the only person at a disadvantage in that fight.

Hiding . . . he threw a boulder at her, which she smashed back at him and then used her speed to get behind. That doesn't meet any definition of hide that I know.

Anyway, I give Thor's team 6/10. Sentry's the weakest link for me.

so you think she's better in almost every way, but he's just too durable for her to take down easily?

Team two, easy.