Originally posted by jaden101
perhaps not...but what it does mean is that there will be war between those put out by the legalisation of drugs over who controls other aspects of organised crime...meaning more crime....and more serious crime at that.
That's but an assumption, not actually supported by any stats or facts or historical examples.
Originally posted by jaden101
because if you're suggesting they'll all of a sudden built proper manufacturing plants in order to make safer drugs...they wont...if you're insisting that they'll pay the coca farmers a proper wage to grow the product rather than do it at threat of violence and give then a barely living wage....they wont...to think that they will is just silly really.
The problem is not that they do not make safe drugs. The problem is that, through it being illegal, the safe, good stuff, gets cut and mixed with all sorts of shitty stuff, like, for example, rat poison (as happened in Germany)...also, it's really not England's responsibility to make sure that third world countries have a minimum wage that we would find accetable. Exposing our society to horrible legislation and all the side effects brought by it, on the assumption that "well, the third world countries will use cheap labour (which happens regardless) is just ludicrous.
Originally posted by jaden101
that's the only possible argument for legalising...that the money raised will be used to get people off drugs and no siphoned off for other purposes...at least that's the only way i can see it getting support.
Well, at least you see one of the good 50 true arguments. Now we can both rally support for drug legalization, hooray.
Originally posted by jaden101
but as is always the case...that doesn't happen...just like when the UK government said they were hiking up rail prices to reinvest in the railways...when infact only a fraction of the extra money actually was used for that.
Well, I don't trust the government either, but really, I don'T see why my tax money that I pay by buying comic books, a relatively harmless choice, should be used to fund anything (including drug rehab) when those people buy drugs for billions of pounds each year and not one penny of it goes to the government, which would benefit me again.
Originally posted by jaden101
good for the US...personally i don't give a **** about their war on drugs
Well, most of Europe is not as bad in their drug prohibition, but the basic problems still apply, just on a smaller scale.
Originally posted by jaden101
the only faulty logic is thinking that drug addicts aren't causing damage to society regardless of who the supplier is...you're merely sanctioning state sponsored house breaking and mugging....well done you.
I never said that, no one ever said that. In fact we all agreed on that, but whenever all the other pro-legalization are brought up, you counter again with "Well, but drug addicts will do bad stuff either way", which doesn't make the valid points any less valid, it's just saying that not everything will be better, which is obviously true, just not of any interest to any discussion, ever.
Originally posted by jaden101
apart from the flimsy reasons i've already given...what benefit do these drugs have for the taker and the society...given that there's a massive amount of medical evidence for the physical damage that psychotropic
Well, it makes you feel pretty ****ing awesome for a while. That's reason enough for the user, really.
Originally posted by jaden101
the irony with me is that i own two books pihkal and tihkal ...and i've tried quite a few of the things in both
😄
The irony with me is that I only tried Marijuana, and hated it....yet, here I am, not denying other people their own experience. I'm awesome like that. 😛
Originally posted by jaden101from personal experience, i've never seen a single positive from drug addiction or heavy usage...and that stems from cannabis to heroin and everything in between...i've seen friends lose their jobs because their cannabis use led them to be unable to work a full day or being under the influence to the extent that it affected their work standard
Were these people writers, artists, musicians? The creative boost offered by Cannabis and its properties of relaxation thus allowing the shit to flow in terms of visualisation and then actualisation are undeniable. Lets also not forget people who prefer to chill out at home, maybe doing something creative, rather being a pissed up aggro case fighting in a pub with random toms, dicks and harrys...?
Its good for for pain relief and countering the sick feeling for cancer patients going through treatment? Glycoma relief?
True that it can get hold of some people, but so does mountain climbing. Its their right to climb or not.
If you ban Cannabis citing violent crime as a reason for any reason, then you should definitely ban drink.
Not only have I seen 3 people die through alchohol abuse,
(as opposed to the none that I have seen die through abusing the pot)
I bet that if you had 50 geezers all pissed in a room together,
and you had another 50 geezers next door all chilled out, I know which room'll be calling the ambulances and meat wagons for first...
I agree on the hard drug issues you mentioned though.
Just that not all drugs're as bad as Heroin is all Im saying.
That's but an assumption, not actually supported by any stats or facts or historical examples.
alcohol = prohibited....criminals sell alcohol...moonshine...potcheen etc
alcohol becomes legalised...criminals move into other areas...gambling...racketeering...drugs...prositution...
The problem is not that they do not make safe drugs. The problem is that, through it being illegal, the safe, good stuff, gets cut and mixed with all sorts of shitty stuff, like, for example, rat poison (as happened in Germany)...also, it's really not England's responsibility to make sure that third world countries have a minimum wage that we would find accetable. Exposing our society to horrible legislation and all the side effects brought by it, on the assumption that "well, the third world countries will use cheap labour (which happens regardless) is just ludicrous.
fair trade heroin alongside fair trade bananas and coffee...hey...just puting it out there.
Well, I don't trust the government either, but really, I don'T see why my tax money that I pay by buying comic books, a relatively harmless choice, should be used to fund anything (including drug rehab) when those people buy drugs for billions of pounds each year and not one penny of it goes to the government, which would benefit me again.
so how's about trying to stop them having the need for drugs in the 1st place...radical idea i know
I never said that, no one ever said that. In fact we all agreed on that, but whenever all the other pro-legalization are brought up, you counter again with "Well, but drug addicts will do bad stuff either way", which doesn't make the valid points any less valid, it's just saying that not everything will be better, which is obviously true, just not of any interest to any discussion, ever.
so you're adimitting that there wont be an improvment on that level at all...but are willing to go through all the massive problems and cost involved in implementing it in the 1st place for what someone argued earlier is a tiny market anyway...
Well, it makes you feel pretty ****ing awesome for a while.
how would you know?... 😛
so we've come to this...some drugs shouldn't be legalised due to their massively adverse social effects...and some should be tolerated mostly for their medicinal effects and should be controlled to maximise their quality so as to enhance those effects....at a price of course
I could be wrong, but I never am.
except when you are. which is, strangely enough, everytime you have a different opinion to me. *snigger snigger titter titter*
Were these people writers, artists, musicians? The creative boost offered by Cannabis and its properties of relaxation thus allowing the shit to flow in terms of visualisation and then actualisation are undeniable. Lets also not forget people who prefer to chill out at home, maybe doing something creative, rather being a pissed up aggro case fighting in a pub with random toms, dicks and harrys...?
the Bill Hicks argument and the Mike Skinner argument in such a short space of time...nice
you know what these drugs did?...
Jimi Hendrix...overdose
Janis Joplin...overdose
Jim Morrison...overdose
Tommy Bolin...overdose
Tim Buckley...overdose
John Entwistle...heart failure due to cocaine use
there's loads more...but you see the pattern emerging...some of them are disputed...but even those are drug linked regardless of whether accidental or deliberate OD
I agree on the hard drug issues you mentioned though. Just that not all drugs're as bad as Heroin is all Im saying.
on this we agree.
Originally posted by jaden101
so how's about trying to stop them having the need for drugs in the 1st place...radical idea i know
Fair enough if you have a plan for it. Banning drugs obviously doesn't work. Hey, I got an idea, lets spen the tax money we get from drugs when they are legal on your idea to stop them taking
them in the first place.
Originally posted by jaden101
so you're adimitting that there wont be an improvment on that level at all...but are willing to go through all the massive problems and cost involved in implementing it in the 1st place for what someone argued earlier is a tiny market anyway...
No, I am giving you this, and say the rest of the arguments are still more than enough to legalize drugs.
And you are not going to get legalizing drugs cost more than continuing to ban them, that's just factually incorrect.
Originally posted by jaden101
how would you know?... 😛
I talked to people that took it. They might have lied though. But they didn't.
Originally posted by jaden101
so we've come to this...some drugs shouldn't be legalised due to their massively adverse social effects...and some should be tolerated mostly for their medicinal effects and should be controlled to maximise their quality so as to enhance those effects....at a price of course
Nope, we are still at all of them should be legalized, for a ridiculous multitude of reasons, not one of them you have countered in any way.
Fair enough if you have a plan for it. Banning drugs obviously doesn't work. Hey, I got an idea, lets spen the tax money we get from drugs when they are legal on your idea to stop them taking
damn...if only i'd said that'd be the only reason for legalising it earlier...oh wait
Nope, we are still at all of them should be legalized, for a ridiculous multitude of reasons, not one of them you have countered in any way.
do please list all the beneficial effects of heroin and crack on the individual and society...seeing as these are the things you're claiming i haven't countered...despite you not actually posting any of them in the 1st place.
Originally posted by jaden101I will, the second you show me that I claimed that you haven't countered the beneficial effects of heroin and crack.
damn...if only i'd said that'd be the only reason for legalising it earlier...oh waitdo please list all the beneficial effects of heroin and crack on the individual and society...seeing as these are the things you're claiming i haven't countered...despite you not actually posting any of them in the 1st place.
Actually, don't bother, I never said anything about that. I was talking about the beneficial effects legalizing drugs has on society and (by extension) on the individual, not about the drugs themselves. I can list all the arguments for that though.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I will, the second you show me that I claimed that you haven't countered the beneficial effects of heroin and crack.Actually, don't bother, I never said anything about that. I was talking about the beneficial effects legalizing drugs has on society and (by extension) on the individual, not about the drugs themselves. I can list all the arguments for that though.
all of them should be legalized, for a ridiculous multitude of reasons, not one of them you have countered in any way.
all drugs include heroin and crack does it not?
your only argument is the money argument...and it's flawed
it can be argued that it's the social situation that leads people towards the drugs and that the money can be used to help solve the social situation...i.e poverty....but it wont...how do i know this...because the same argument can be applied to alcohol dependancy...obesity...heart disease...given that statistics say that poor people are far more likely to eat unhealthily...drink more and smoke more...and that the tax revenue generated from fatty foods, cigarettes and alcohol are astronomical...yet poverty is as bad now as it's been for the last 100 years..
clearly drug taxes would be no different.
the same could be argued for mental health reasons for drugs...for whatever personal or social reason....alcohol dependancy can be attributed to the same things...as can smoking and eating unhealthily
so drug taxes wouldn't aleviate these problems in society.
the difference is that people with smoking habits and obesity can still function fully in society...those with severe drug problems cannot, for the most part anyway, do that....especially those at the end that cannot afford the addiction...thus comes the problems i've mentioned countless time already.
so aside from the limited medical uses...what are these benefits you speak of?
Originally posted by jaden101the Bill Hicks argument and the Mike Skinner argument in such a short space of time...nice
you know what these drugs did?...
Jimi Hendrix...overdose
Janis Joplin...overdose
Jim Morrison...overdose
Tommy Bolin...overdose
Tim Buckley...overdose
John Entwistle...heart failure due to cocaine usethere's loads more...but you see the pattern emerging...some of them are disputed...but even those are drug linked regardless of whether accidental or deliberate OD
on this we agree.
Ahhh! The old "If someone has had the same opinion before, yours cannot have any validity" argument...?
So if I experience 1st hand that the water when not a gas or solid is wet,
am I merely ripping off those who wrote before that water is wet..?
Not sure what argument Mike Skinner may have had, as I never listened to anything the talentless c*** said...!
Yes I know what those drugs did and they werent cannabis.
You left out Momma Cass: Sandwich
Sandwiches are baddddddd.
Fair play. The cannabis being lumped in with the harder shit and being demonised worse than Alcohol was my only argument.
I have heard the Bill Hicks argument before true but dont know what you refer to about Mike skinner as I never listen to that talentless little ****.. But rest assured though, my experience is 1st hand all the way baby...
That yours is the one commonly expressed by MPs and anti drug debaters, doesnt mean that Im gonna assume that you are letting them write speeches for you as you post.
Also my arguments are not being applied to hard drugs.
Originally posted by Jack Daniels
Snoop died from mushrooms while flying a plane..lol
That would be the biggest killer in air travel responsible:
Gravity.
Ban gravity. 😉
Or at least be willing have the government tell you how much gravity you should or shouldnt have... And which gravity-subject objects you can keep in your household. 😛
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
That would be the biggest killer in air travel responsible:Gravity.
Ban gravity. 😉
Or at least be willing have the government tell you how much gravity you should or shouldnt have... And which gravity-subject objects you can keep in your household. 😛
Don't tell jokes about gravity! He's fed up with people walking all over him and I tell you...if he gives up...we're ****ed!
Re: Drug Addicts
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Debates across the world occur when ever the issue of how to deal with drug problems come up...the question is, should they be treated as patients: say given drugs like heroin on prescription in order to get them off the drug or should they be treated as criminals and imprisoned for their habit?What do you think?
Read High Society by Ben Elton. Apply the general idea. Leave the country if it all goes wrong.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Ahhh! The old "If someone has had the same opinion before, yours cannot have any validity" argument...?
So if I experience 1st hand that the water when not a gas or solid is wet,
am I merely ripping off those who wrote before that water is wet..?
Not sure what argument Mike Skinner may have had, as I never listened to anything the talentless c*** said...!Yes I know what those drugs did and they werent cannabis.
You left out Momma Cass: Sandwich
Sandwiches are baddddddd.Fair play. The cannabis being lumped in with the harder shit and being demonised worse than Alcohol was my only argument.
nothing quite beats puting words in people's mouthes does it?
I have heard the Bill Hicks argument before true but dont know what you refer to about Mike skinner as I never listen to that talentless little ****.. But rest assured though, my experience is 1st hand all the way baby...
once is enough....or have the drugs rotted your brain that much that you forgot you already posted
the difference in tone between the two would also suggest a split personality of some kind...again...a possible result of drug use. 😛 😆
anyway...here's the mike skinner argument if you're interested
Hello, hello. my names terry and Im a law abider
Theres nothing I like more than getting fired up on beer
And when the weekends here I to exercise my right to get paralytic and fight
Good bloke fairly
But I get well leery when geezers look at me funny
Bounce em round like bunnies
Im likely to cause mischief
Good clean grief you must believe and I aint no thief.
Law abiding and all, all legal.
And who cares about my liver when it feels good
Wwhat you need is some real manhood.
Rasher rasher barney and kasha putting peoples backs up.
Public disorder, Ill give you public disorder.
I down eight pints and run all over the place
Spit in the face of an officer
See if that bothers you cause I never broke a law in my life
Someday Im gonna settle down with a wife
Come on lads lets have another fight
Eh hello. my names tim and Im a criminal,
In the eyes of society I need to be in jail
For the choice of herbs I inhale.
This aint no wholesale operation
Just a few eighths and some playstations mys vocation
I pose a threat to the nation
And down the station the police hold no patients
Lets talk space and time
I like to get deep sometimes and think about einstein
And carl young and old kung fu movies I like to see
Pass the hydrator please
Yeah Im floating on thin air.
Going to amsterdam in the new year - top gear there
Cause I taker pride in my hobby
Home made bongs using my engineering degree
Dear leaders, please legalise weed for these reasons.
Like I was saying to him.
I told him: top with me and you wont leave.
So I smacked him in the head and downed another carling
Bada bada bing for the lads night.
Mad fight, his faces a sad sight.
Vodka and snake bite.
Going on like a right geez, hes a ****,
Shouldnt have looked at me like that.
Anyway Im an upstanding citizen
If a war came along Id be on the front line with em.
Cant stand crime either them hooligans on heroin.
Drugs and criminals those thugs on the penny coloured will be the downfall of society
Ive got all the anger pent up inside of me.
You know I dont see why I should be the criminal
How can something with no recorded fatalities be illegal
And how many deaths are there per year from alcohol
I just completed gran tourismo on the hardest setting
We pose no threat on my settee
Ooh the pizzas here will someone let him in please
We didnt order chicken, not a problem well pick it out
I doubt they meant to mess us about
After all were all adults not louts.
As I was saying, were friendly peaceful people
Were not the ones out there causing trouble.
We just sit in this hazy bubble with our quarters
Discussing how beautiful gail porter is.
Mtv, bbc 2, channel 4 is on until six in the morning.
Then at six in the morning the sun dawns and its my bedtime.
Causing trouble, your stinking rabble
Boys saying Im the lad whos spoiling it
Youre on drugs it really bugs me when people try and tell me Im a thug
Just for getting drunk
I like getting drunk
Cause Im an upstanding citizen
If a war came along Id be on the front line with em.
Now terry youre repeating yourself
But thats okay drunk people cant help that.
A chemical reaction inside your brain causes you to forget what youre saying.
What. I know exactly what Im saying
Im perfectly sane
You stinking student lameo
Go get a job and stop robbing us of our taxes.
Err, well actually according to research
Government funding for further education pales in insignificance
When compared to how much they spend on repairing
Leery drunk people at the weekend
In casualty wards all over the land.
Why you cheeky little swine come here
Im gonna batter you. come here.
Originally posted by jaden101
all drugs include heroin and crack does it not?
Again, "legalized" being the operative word. Not "all drugs have great positive effects on society and the individual". That's a very gross misinterpretation of what you quoted there.
Originally posted by jaden101
your only argument is the money argument...and it's flawed
Actually, no, you may say that my arguments all are flawed, but the money one is certainly not the only argument I have brought.
Originally posted by jaden101
it can be argued that it's the social situation that leads people towards the drugs and that the money can be used to help solve the social situation...i.e poverty....but it wont...how do i know this...because the same argument can be applied to alcohol dependancy...obesity...heart disease...given that statistics say that poor people are far more likely to eat unhealthily...drink more and smoke more...and that the tax revenue generated from fatty foods, cigarettes and alcohol are astronomical...yet poverty is as bad now as it's been for the last 100 years..
Poverty is as bad as it has been for the last 100 years? Where do you come up with that stuff? Obviously poverty is much, much better in basically every western country now than it used to be
Originally posted by jaden101
clearly drug taxes would be no different.
That doesn't follow from anything. Clearly the government would have more money. Whether that is spend on roads, drug rehab, medicare, schools or just to give a tax cut across the board...it will have an influence. That much is clear. The government having a billion more in taxes not doing anything is a ridiculous assumption, based on solely nothing.
Originally posted by jaden101
the same could be argued for mental health reasons for drugs...for whatever personal or social reason....alcohol dependancy can be attributed to the same things...as can smoking and eating unhealthily
Smoking has become much less dominant, alcohol, I am pretty sure has been worse during prohibition at least in the US...whether that has gotten better in the UK, I do not know, but then again the UK has a reputation for it's immense Alcohol problem. Either way, that's again, and argument for nothing, not against legalization of drugs.
Originally posted by jaden101
so drug taxes wouldn't aleviate these problems in society.
That's an assumption, and not actually based on any evidence.
Originally posted by jaden101
the difference is that people with smoking habits and obesity can still function fully in society...those with severe drug problems cannot, for the most part anyway, do that....especially those at the end that cannot afford the addiction...thus comes the problems i've mentioned countless time already.
What about all those very many with not severe drug problems, but very casual usage. Why do they have to suffer because some people can't control their desires. There are people that function fully normal in a society although using drugs, why does their choice need to be criminalized. Oh, and before you answer, remember drugs are illegal now, yet all those junkies and drug gangs are very dominant everywhere, obviously banning drugs doesn't protect you from those that can't control their drug use. So why do the ones that can also have to suffer?
Originally posted by jaden101
so aside from the limited medical uses...what are these benefits you speak of?
Again, misinterpreting what I said. I never said that the drugs have benefits (besides the medical ones, you point out...and I guess relaxation or keeping you awake they can do well, too, but lets not get into how awesome drugs are, cause it was never my point)...I said LEGALIZING HAS BENEFITS...you heard DRUGS HAVE BENEFITS. Do you see the difference? I shan't argue an argument you have misheard. If you want me to name the advantages of legalization, I can do that, but stop saying I claim drugs are beneficial. If anything you are the one that obviously thinks drugs as they are a beneficial, since I want them legalized to CHANGE and adhere to higher standards, while you seem to be alright with the very dominant, but unsafe drugs all over the place we have now.