Originally posted by Wade Wilson
Venom's actually deeper than any other Spider-man villain
He really not. Venom's motivation is that he believes Spider-Man ruined his life. When in fact Spidey and Brock had never even met until Brock became Venom.
All Spidey had done was catch the serial killer, Sin-Eater. Brock construed that as the cause for him losing his job and his wife leaving him. It was utter contrived nonsense. Not deep at all.
Originally posted by harri
Well that's your opinion, and maybe your right, but maybe your wrong to.
Yeah, it is just my opinion. I mean when you look at all the great comic book feuds between hero and villain: Reed Richards vs Dr Doom, Batman vs The Joker, Daredevil vs Bullseye etc.
They are all great because there is a real basis for the feuds. Something personal happened between them that caused it. Either in their past, or when they met.
Venom decided to hate Spidey when they never even knew eachother. All Spidey did was catch a killer. And Brock construed that as Spidey ruining his life. Utter nonsense.
Me? Stupid? 😂 You sir are the one who has a f*cked up brain due to that fact that all your blood goes to a certain place due to the fact that Ocks going to be in more episodes of the spec spiderman than Venom 🙄 Don't believe me about Ock asking for spideys assistance, Amazing spider-man (vol 2) issue 12. Norman is way more evil than ock and it's plain and simple, I shouldn't even have to explain, he killed spidermans unborn child, he killed Gwen Stacy the love of spidermans life before MJ, he got spiderman to believe he was a clone which sent spiderman over the edge for a while. If I remember the only reason why ock found out spidermans identity was because spiderman was dying and not at a 100%, Norman was able to find out spidey's identity by himself and not requiring the aid of someone else. You retard I know they haven't killed him, I never said they did...I was making the point that a villain that wasn't your beloved ock was able to kill spiderman which is something ock has tried and failed at doing. Norman isn't a big boy because he's never had a chance to face hulk or supes..wow 😐 I am glad I was able to back up your retarded non existant point. 🙄 Ock beating hulk is just retarded, the only reason your using that stupid win is because you obviously are blind to the fact that Ock would easily get his ass kicked if it was done by writers who actually knew what the hulk can do and how powerfull he is.
Originally posted by steverules_2
[B]Me? Stupid? 😂 You sir are the one who has a f*cked up brain due to that fact that all your blood goes to a certain place due to the fact that Ocks going to be in more episodes of the spec spiderman than Venom 🙄
As usual, you missed the point entirely. The point I was making, like with the cartoon thread, is that these professionals in the entertainment industry know that the Venom character is not up to the standards of Goblin and Ock.
That's why they limit him. In Raimi's case he never even wanted to use him, but did so for the sake of the fans.
Don't believe me about Ock asking for spideys assistance, Amazing spider-man (vol 2) issue 12.
I have that issue. It ain't there.
Norman is way more evil than ock and it's plain and simple, I shouldn't even have to explain, he killed spidermans unborn child, he killed Gwen Stacy the love of spidermans life before MJ, he got spiderman to believe he was a clone which sent spiderman over the edge for a while.
Because he knows Spidey's real identity. If Ock did, he'd do all that and more. Probably give MJ's baby radiation poisoning or something while still in the womb.
What is Venom's excuse? He has the knowledge, yet in nearly 20 years the writers have never let him do anything big with it.
Why is that? Because Venom is not as high a class of villain as Norman and Octavius.
If I remember the only reason why ock found out spidermans identity was because spiderman was dying and not at a 100%, Norman was able to find out spidey's identity by himself and not requiring the aid of someone else.
Wrong!
Norman used his henchman to lure Spidey into a fight so he could expose him to the gas that would dull his spider sense. And lacking a spider sense is not being at 100%
You retard I know they haven't killed him, I never said they did...I was making the point that a villain that wasn't your beloved ock was able to kill spiderman which is something ock has tried and failed at doing.
Tsk tsk, sticks and stones.
Why did you point out such an obvious fact? Every villain, bar Morlun, has tried and failed to kill Spidey. That's not exclusive to Ock. And it's not something I ever denied.
So thanks for derailing the discussion with such an obvious and pointless piece of info.
Norman isn't a big boy because he's never had a chance to face hulk or supes..wow 😐
No, Norman is a big boy because his status was achieved by more than being able to match an enemy in a fight.
Don't you see what I'm saying by now? All of your points about Venom have been purely about his fighting skills. That seems to be the whole basis for your pro Venom arguement.
Most of Spidey's enemies are very able fighters. They have to be to be able to fight Spidey. So unless you have something to add about Venom other than his fighting skills, then stop wasting my time and yours.
Give me something of substance. What has Venom achieved as a villain? Has he seriously hurt someone Peter cares about? Killed someone Peter cares about? Done anything remotely clever as a villain other than stalk and fight him?
I am glad I was able to back up your retarded non existant point. 🙄 Ock beating hulk is just retarded, the only reason your using that stupid win is because you obviously are blind to the fact that Ock would easily get his ass kicked if it was done by writers who actually knew what the hulk can do and how powerfull he is.
They do know. And they know how powerful Ock can be. He's toppled speeding trains in the comics. Toppled whole buildings in the comics.
Like I said, it's just sour grapes with you. Not my fault I have the comic book facts to back up my opinions.
Originally posted by KeeharUm.. that's just a part of a much bigger story. It's not just about Spider-man, its more about Brock's father, long story. Also, Brock wants to be a good guy, and at some point of his life he had to face the possibility that for many years his actions were not his own, that he doesn't have a free will, that he was a slave for many years, and his hatred for Spider-man and desire to punish bad guys is actually caused by the symbiote but at the same time he couldn't leave the alien. There's a lot of inner struggle in the character, while Ock's and Osborn's motives are pretty obvious and not complicated. So yes, he IS deeper,
He really not. Venom's motivation is that he believes Spider-Man ruined his life.
Originally posted by Wade Wilson
Um.. that's just a part of a much bigger story. It's not just about Spider-man, its more about Brock's father, long story. Also, Brock wants to be a good guy, and at some point of his life he had to face the possibility that for many years his actions were not his own, that he doesn't have a free will, that he was a slave for many years, and his hatred for Spider-man and desire to punish bad guys is actually caused by the symbiote but at the same time he couldn't leave the alien. There's a lot of inner struggle in the character, while Ock's and Osborn's motives are pretty obvious and not complicated. So yes, he IS deeper,
Oh man, Ock and Gobby both have backstories with their parents, too. Norman's dad used to lock him up in dark rooms when he was a kid. That's what Norman did to Peter when he tried to force him to become his air.
As for Ock, his father used to verbally abuse him, while his mother was overbearing and used to suffocate his life and ruined his engagment to a woman he loved.
All this was referenced several times in their stories.
Brock wanting to be the good guy was something they cooked up in the 90's when the stalking Spidey thing got stale. So they made Venom anti hero. And they invented Carnage, a one dimensional character who just likes to kill, for someone new for Venom to fight other than Spidey.
It was all plot devices, man. Nothing deep about it at all. Look at what they're doing now with the Anti-Venom rubbish. And I wont even get started on Toxin.
Originally posted by steverules_2
You have the issue? Well you really must suck at reading since it's in the issue, he says to spiderman: "I require your aid" before he chucks him to venom.
Ok, I'll re-read it and see. But then Venom has teamed up with Spidey many times before.
So it's not a weakness. Just a matter of usefulness.
You clearly miss my point in our discussion that I am not trying to say that Venom is more evil that ock, I am saying that Norman is
But you have failed to say why. I can list a dozen stories where Ock cooked up schemes so unspeakably foul and evil. Big mass murder schemes.
I mean it doesn't get more evil than that. If Ock was armed [no pun intended] with the knowledge of Spidey's identity, he'd wreak unspeakable evil on Spidey's life. Moreso than he has already done.
And we both know it.
if it was just venom then don't you think I would have left norman out of this? Venom coulda easily hurt MJ, but he didn't...he could have hurt Peter's parents (even though they weren't his real parents), he broke black cats nose and could have done worse had he chose to, without his symbiote he neally killed aunt may when she was in hospital, so there ya go something about venom other than his fighting skills and something other than stalking and fighting.
Yes, that's exactly my point. That's what I've been saying all along. Venom has inhibitions. They writers don't let him expand on that. He's not on the villain scale of Ock and Goblin.
They are evil. They are schemers. They have little to no morals. That's why they have wreaked more havoc on Spidey's life.
Pete minus a spider sense is less than him being at 100% yes, but I think Pete dying is worse than no spider sense at all.
Well, of course. Don't get much worse than death lol.
Originally posted by steverules_2
😂 Dammit I edited the post after the PM you sent and got the unedited one, oh well
It's cool. I just read your PM now.
We're both cool with eachother, myself and steverules. Sorry for letting things get so heated, folks. When us comic book geeks get going, we take no prisoners 😂
Anyway, regardless of differing opinions, Goblin, Ock, and Venom are "The big three" of the Spidey rogues gallery.
I have to put my 2 cents in on Venom. I did like Venom because of his cool look BUT also because, I've said this before, Spiderman-Venom is a love story. Not because of Brock (who has been handled inconsistently at best) but because of the symbiote and Peter's rejection of it. The symbiote is half of Venom. It HATES Spiderman because he rejected its love. Spurned affection makes for good story (as does the 'wrong' type of love).
To prove my point, look here at the last few pages when Spiderman is by the church bell destroying the symbiote. It SAVES him with its 'last dying breath'.
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/5032078.html#cutid1
okay, Spiderman 3 should have just been Spidey dealing with Sandman and his black suite issues. Than he eventually defeats Sandman comes to terms with his inner evil and the death of his uncle ben and expels the black suite. Harry is still alive but still pissed at him and wants to kill him. MJ and Pete are still shaky. Than maybe at the very end of Spider-man 3 we get to See the famous bell tower seen and Eddie Brock turning into Venom.
This would than be the perfect set up for Spider-man 4 which could have totally been focused with Eddie Brock and Venom. How Spidey deals with them. Venom is stronger/superior to Spider-man and there is the threat he tells the world his secret.
Than in this movie, Harry can die if that is what marvel/Sam Raimi wants. Peter and MJ reconcile. And I do not know if Venom should die or not.
Also no cheesy scenes like in Spidey 3 that was over the top.
But I will admit it is easy to say this/criticize especially since the movie is already out
Originally posted by KeeharWait, you're saying that Carnage was brought just to make Venom more interesting?? 😕 Carnage, Toxin and orher symbiotes were created because someone was too lazy to think of an original character, the same way they created a dozen goblin rip offs, like Menace in brand new day for example. So I dont see how that makes Venom a bad character. And as for plot devices, look at Goblin's story, a buisenessman who wnet crazy, died, ressurected, and died again only to ressurect even more crazy than before. What's so deep about this character? And yes, Venom's full story was written in 90s but so what? It's not like Ock's whole story was revealed in his first appearance. A scientist who becomes a villain because of issues he had as a child and as a grown up... ❌ I'd stick with Venom...
Oh man, Ock and Gobby both have backstories with their parents, too. Norman's dad used to lock him up in dark rooms when he was a kid. That's what Norman did to Peter when he tried to force him to become his air.As for Ock, his father used to verbally abuse him, while his mother was overbearing and used to suffocate his life and ruined his engagment to a woman he loved.
All this was referenced several times in their stories.
Brock wanting to be the good guy was something they cooked up in the 90's when the stalking Spidey thing got stale. So they made Venom anti hero. And they invented Carnage, a one dimensional character who just likes to kill, for someone new for Venom to fight other than Spidey.
It was all plot devices, man. Nothing deep about it at all. Look at what they're doing now with the Anti-Venom rubbish. And I wont even get started on Toxin.
Originally posted by Wade Wilson
[B]Wait, you're saying that Carnage was brought just to make Venom more interesting?? 😕
That's exactly it. Carnage was created because of Venom. Someone new for Venom to fight because the stalking Spidey routine got old. So they changed Venom's routine.
Suddenly killing Spider-Man was not priority one. Protecting innocents was. It was a lame plot device. That whole Lethal Protector storyline is one of the best examples of why 90's Spidey comics suck.
Carnage, Toxin and orher symbiotes were created because someone was too lazy to think of an original character, the same way they created a dozen goblin rip offs
No, the difference here is that all the Goblin rip offs came after Norman Osborn was killed off in the early 70's. They tried to fill his void.
All the lame symbiote rip off characters came while Venom was still around. They were plot devices to try and keep Venom interesting.
And as for plot devices, look at Goblin's story, a buisenessman who wnet crazy, died, ressurected, and died again only to ressurect even more crazy than before. What's so deep about this character?
Everything. His obsession with Spider-Man, his relationship with his son, the symbolism of the Goblin persona.
And yes, Venom's full story was written in 90s but so what? It's not like Ock's whole story was revealed in his first appearance. A scientist who becomes a villain because of issues he had as a child and as a grown up... ❌ I'd stick with Venom.
If you've read Octavius' backstory, you'd see his evil stems from more than just his parent troubles. Same with Norman Osborn. The parents were factors, but ultimately these guys became products of their own making. The accidents that gave them their powers was the final push to send them over the edge.
The difference here is that the classic villains when they were created in Stan Lee's day were never given a backstory in their original appearances. Stan didn't have the luxury of fitting that into one issue stories. Every issue had to be a new story and a new villain. Different times back in the 60's. Later on future writers added a back story to all the classic villains. Stan lay the foundations, other writers built on it.
Venom came in the 80's, when characters could be given full backstories in multiple issue stories. They waited until the 90's to give Venom one with his dad because they were changing his motive in order to try and keep the character interesting.
Why do you think Sam Raimi could not understand where Venom's humanity was when he researched the character in the comic books? The writing for him is all over the place. It's shallow and makes little to no sense.
Originally posted by steverules_2Steve? Your sig is depressing.
Me? Stupid? 😂 You sir are the one who has a f*cked up brain due to that fact that all your blood goes to a certain place due to the fact that Ocks going to be in more episodes of the spec spiderman than Venom 🙄 Don't believe me about Ock asking for spideys assistance, Amazing spider-man (vol 2) issue 12. Norman is way more evil than ock and it's plain and simple, I shouldn't even have to explain, he killed spidermans unborn child, he killed Gwen Stacy the love of spidermans life before MJ, he got spiderman to believe he was a clone which sent spiderman over the edge for a while. If I remember the only reason why ock found out spidermans identity was because spiderman was dying and not at a 100%, Norman was able to find out spidey's identity by himself and not requiring the aid of someone else. You retard I know they haven't killed him, I never said they did...I was making the point that a villain that wasn't your beloved ock was able to kill spiderman which is something ock has tried and failed at doing. Norman isn't a big boy because he's never had a chance to face hulk or supes..wow 😐 I am glad I was able to back up your retarded non existant point. 🙄 Ock beating hulk is just retarded, the only reason your using that stupid win is because you obviously are blind to the fact that Ock would easily get his ass kicked if it was done by writers who actually knew what the hulk can do and how powerfull he is.
Also, welcome back to the forums Ock!