After Sidious was destroyed, the true Sith went extinct. Exar Kun's spirit that left Luke in a coma and tried to take over Kyp's body possibly could have resurrected the Sith Order, but that failed. We'll never know. Nothing remained that could true Sith. The "Sith" on Korriban in the LOTF series were frauds. "One Master One Apprentice - One to embody the power the other to crave it."
Caedus was extremely powerful in the Force. His 5 year journey taught him many aspects of the Force. But his Sith training primarily came from Lumiya who had a very limited knowledge of Sith teachings. Vader was versed in Sith teachings, but not all. Lumiya was actually like Starkiller and Mara - assasins. In my opinion, Starkiller would definitely be able to kick Lumiya's ass in all aspects: Force, Lightsaber and All Out - he did kill Shak Ti. If Starkiller remained dark side he have been a far better Master to Caedus. Starkiller did know some Sith teachings and was strong in the Force. After all, he was Vader's "apprentice." If he was ambitious enough, he could have killed Vader.
Jacen/Caedus was already well on his way to the dark side. Each man/woman makes their own choice to become a Sith. It all depends on what powers they are taught. As some of you point out, Bane wouldn't try some of the rituals because they were so dangerous. Bane did point out that Revan was a true Sith Lord.
But we have to consider why Revan would want to much less know how to perform these rituals. Caedus cut Ben off from the Force - a powerful technique indeed. But why wouldn't Caedus want more destructive power much less crave it? The true Sith were extinct and Caedus claimed the title of Sith Lord. But according to my knowledge in order to become a Sith Lord, doesn't one have to kill their Master? Caedus never killed Vergere or Lumiya. Opinions anyone?
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Jacen/Caedus was already well on his way to the dark side. Each man/woman makes their own choice to become a Sith. It all depends on what powers they are taught. As some of you point out, Bane wouldn't try some of the rituals because they were so dangerous. Bane did point out that Revan was a true Sith Lord.But we have to consider why Revan would want to much less know how to perform these rituals. Caedus cut Ben off from the Force - a powerful technique indeed. But why wouldn't Caedus want more destructive power much less crave it? The true Sith were extinct and Caedus claimed the title of Sith Lord. But according to my knowledge in order to become a Sith Lord, doesn't one have to kill their Master? Caedus never killed Vergere or Lumiya. Opinions anyone?
EDIT:Vegere sacrificed herself in the vong war for Jacen/Jaina(?) and Jacen wasn't even close to becoming a sith or a full fledged dark sider yet. If you wan to continue this debate then fine but bring up some real points not this crap that is irrelevant to the thread.
Power - I meant Force wise, not political. Jacen/Caedus sought to save the GA which he did from a certain point of view. Daala was placed in charge and it's no secret she doesn't like Force-users.
Craving power has everything to do with being Sith. Revan sought power that would bring ultimate destruction. Caedus fought in the YV War, Joiner Crisis & 2nd GCW. Throughout those conflicts he learned various diferrent Force abilities from other cultures. Revan however after the Mandalorian Wars, disappeared for 2 years and returned a Sith Lord after plundering Malachor V and Korriban for example.
Caedus never fought a true Sith Lord in combat. Revan did. He fought and killed Malak in both a mastery of the dark side and lightsaber. I believe if Caedus fought a true Sith Lord like Revan, he would be destroyed. I'm not saying it'd be quick and easy no. Revan would probably die due to his wounds, but Caedus would lose. Revan's mastery and knowledge of the dark side is just too strong. Revan understood ancient Sith teachings. Caedus did not.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Power - I meant Force wise, not political. Jacen/Caedus sought to save the GA which he did from a certain point of view.
Craving power has everything to do with being Sith. Revan sought power that would bring ultimate destruction
aedus fought in the YV War, Joiner Crisis & 2nd GCW. Throughout those conflicts he learned various diferrent Force abilities from other cultures
Revan however after the Mandalorian Wars, disappeared for 2 years and returned a Sith Lord after plundering Malachor V and Korriban for example.
Caedus never fought a true Sith Lord in combat. Revan did. He fought and killed Malak in both a mastery of the dark side and lightsaber
I believe if Caedus fought a true Sith Lord like Revan, he would be destroyed.
You are far from proving it or making a convincing argument. Hell your entire argument has been: "Revan is more sithly and craves power while Caedus is not a true sith, therefore Revan wins. Once again provide real evidnce that Revan is superior, as we have already stated, Caedus has shown us more abilities to use in combat,he has a broader knowledge of the force than Revan, he is of skywalker blood, a better saber duelist, and can take more pain than virtually every other character in sw.
Revan's mastery and knowledge of the dark side is just too strong.
Revan understood ancient Sith teachings. Caedus did not.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Power - I meant Force wise, not political. Jacen/Caedus sought to save the GA which he did from a certain point of view. Daala was placed in charge and it's no secret she doesn't like Force-users.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Craving power has everything to do with being Sith. Revan sought power that would bring ultimate destruction. Caedus fought in the YV War, Joiner Crisis & 2nd GCW. Throughout those conflicts he learned various diferrent Force abilities from other cultures. Revan however after the Mandalorian Wars, disappeared for 2 years and returned a Sith Lord after plundering Malachor V and Korriban for example.
Spelling out SW history doesn't make your argument more persuasive. If anything it lessens the efficacy of your points because it ticks people off. (Making them less likely to want to agree with you.)
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Caedus never fought a true Sith Lord in combat. Revan did. He fought and killed Malak in both a mastery of the dark side and lightsaber.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I believe if Caedus fought a true Sith Lord like Revan, he would be destroyed.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I'm not saying it'd be quick and easy no. Revan would probably die due to his wounds, but Caedus would lose. Revan's mastery and knowledge of the dark side is just too strong. Revan understood ancient Sith teachings. Caedus did not.
Sadly, these are points that I've already addressed. Revan's mastery of the Force appears to have been tied up in rituals, and the extent of his combat knowledge is completely unknown. Caedus is stronger in the Force (skywalker bloodline) and has shown greater mastery (in the form of numerous techniques) than has Revan.
There is nothing upon which to base a claim of Revan's superiority.
Originally posted by Faunus
When did Caedus fight Kyp?
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Isn't that the one where the Jedi Strike team has to get the tracer on him? Caedus ends up throwing a speeder bike at someone...I might be wrong. I haven't read the books for a while. Time for another run through.
In RTOJ, didn't Luke use Force choke against the Gamorrean guard in Jaba's Palace? It is safe to assume that both Jedi and Sith can use that power. And Luke was far from a Jedi Knight at the time. All of us have to agree with that part.
You make a mention that Caedus thrived on pain. That is true yes and so did Sion. But, the human body can only take so much. In the epic lightsaber battle between Jaina and Caedus, Jaina severed his Achilles tendon. As a former track runner, an injury to the Achilles is nearly "fatal" for an athlete (puts the entire career at risk). Therefore Caedus ability to fight was reduced dramatically. Although struck by FL, Jaina could have killed him even if he didn't give up.
Battle Meditation - We may never know if Revan knew Battle Meditation, but he was a master tactition. No battle plan goes according to plan in the face of the enemy and tracers work both ways. Caedus's meditation was disrupted by Allana's betrayal.
When I made a mention of true Sith Lord, does anyone believe that Caedus could actually kill a powerful Sith like Sidous? I'm making a mention of Sidious because he was the last true Sith Lord. All of his knowledge of the dark side were amassed by Bane who found Revan's holocron which taught him more about the dark side and Sith than his original training at the so called Sith Academy during his era. Sidious probably developed other powers that we don't know about. We'll never know. Now think if he faced Revan who knew the rituals and the unknown powers that were not mentioned? That's why I say he would be destroyed.
Other than Luke, Caedus was the most accomplished lightsaber artist. However, I believe he is not that skilled of an all out fighter. I agree that Mara used her surroundings in the cave to her advantage which is brilliant. A textbook ambush which caught him off guard. He also took a shoto lightsaber wound from her. But how skilled is Revan? He was able to fight with two lightsabers which is extremely difficult. Many martial artists can't master it.
Elite I can always count on you to provide evidence, but I think I deal with theoretical, unpredictability and unknowns. You always have to take into account the unpredictability factor. What if Revan unleashed a focused FS on Caedus or severed his connection to the Force during a lightsaber battle? We'll never know because they are seperated by 4,000 years.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
In RTOJ, didn't Luke use Force choke against the Gamorrean guard in Jaba's Palace? It is safe to assume that both Jedi and Sith can use that power. And Luke was far from a Jedi Knight at the time. All of us have to agree with that part.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
You make a mention that Caedus thrived on pain. That is true yes and so did Sion.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
But, the human body can only take so much. In the epic lightsaber battle between Jaina and Caedus, Jaina severed his Achilles tendon. As a former track runner, an injury to the Achilles is nearly "fatal" for an athlete (puts the entire career at risk). Therefore Caedus ability to fight was reduced dramatically.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Although struck by FL, Jaina could have killed him even if he didn't give up.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
When I made a mention of true Sith Lord, does anyone believe that Caedus could actually kill a powerful Sith like Sidous? I'm making a mention of Sidious because he was the last true Sith Lord. All of his knowledge of the dark side were amassed by Bane who found Revan's holocron which taught him more about the dark side and Sith than his original training at the so called Sith Academy during his era. Sidious probably developed other powers that we don't know about. We'll never know. Now think if he faced Revan who knew the rituals and the unknown powers that were not mentioned? That's why I say he would be destroyed.
That's all I have time for. EH will take the rest, or I'll deal with it when I get back.
Originally posted by Darth TruculentThe amount of irrelevant speculation in this post is mind-boggling.
In RTOJ, didn't Luke use Force choke against the Gamorrean guard in Jaba's Palace? It is safe to assume that both Jedi and Sith can use that power. And Luke was far from a Jedi Knight at the time. All of us have to agree with that part.You make a mention that Caedus thrived on pain. That is true yes and so did Sion. But, the human body can only take so much. In the epic lightsaber battle between Jaina and Caedus, Jaina severed his Achilles tendon. As a former track runner, an injury to the Achilles is nearly "fatal" for an athlete (puts the entire career at risk). Therefore Caedus ability to fight was reduced dramatically. Although struck by FL, Jaina could have killed him even if he didn't give up.
Battle Meditation - We may never know if Revan knew Battle Meditation, but he was a master tactition. No battle plan goes according to plan in the face of the enemy and tracers work both ways. Caedus's meditation was disrupted by Allana's betrayal.
When I made a mention of true Sith Lord, does anyone believe that Caedus could actually kill a powerful Sith like Sidous? I'm making a mention of Sidious because he was the last true Sith Lord. All of his knowledge of the dark side were amassed by Bane who found Revan's holocron which taught him more about the dark side and Sith than his original training at the so called Sith Academy during his era. Sidious probably developed other powers that we don't know about. We'll never know. Now think if he faced Revan who knew the rituals and the unknown powers that were not mentioned? That's why I say he would be destroyed.
Other than Luke, Caedus was the most accomplished lightsaber artist. However, I believe he is not that skilled of an all out fighter. I agree that Mara used her surroundings in the cave to her advantage which is brilliant. A textbook ambush which caught him off guard. He also took a shoto lightsaber wound from her. But how skilled is Revan? He was able to fight with two lightsabers which is extremely difficult. Many martial artists can't master it.
Elite I can always count on you to provide evidence, but I think I deal with theoretical, unpredictability and unknowns. You always have to take into account the unpredictability factor. What if Revan unleashed a focused FS on Caedus or severed his connection to the Force during a lightsaber battle? We'll never know because they are seperated by 4,000 years.
I meant when Jaina severed his tendon she had him easily and Caedus knew it. In the book it even states that his body was wearing out and he was dying and he knew it. His body was beyond salvage. He couldn't really move due to his leg injury.
I did mention that Sidious invented many powers that he utilized and had at his disposal. But, the original knowledge that was passed to him was from Revan from his Master Pelagius. There was no line of succession so, Caedus would never have the power to defeat Sidious. Now if he faced Revan who knows the ancient powers, it would not be quick and easy, but Revan would defeat him in Force and Revan would die due to injuries. Lightsaber is an entirely different matter.
Red already covered half the post so I wont make a rebuttal to what he has posted and continue where he left off.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Other than Luke, Caedus was the most accomplished lightsaber artist. However, I believe he is not that skilled of an all out fighter.
A textbook ambush which caught him off guard.
Jacen loaded four poisoned darts into an adapted blaster and slipped the others into slots on his belt, wondering how he could think such things so calmly. He approached the tunnel mouth with slow care. While he could sense the layout, Mara had vanished from the Force again. There was about a meter of headroom as he edged carefully along the central tunnel, and he could see horizontal shafts at about hip height branching off. It had been built to drain storm water; in harsh winters, local Kavani had once made emergency homes down here.
Jacen stood and listened.
"Okay," he said. "I know you can hear me, Mara. You can still back out of this."
His voice echoed. There was no response, just as he expected, so he began walking deeper into the maze of drains, lightsaber in his right hand and blaster in the other. The only light around him now was a green haze from the glowing blade of energy.
"I could," he said quietly, "go back, block the entrance to this complex with flammable material, and set fire to it." She could hear him, all right: he could hear water dripping slowly deep in the tunnels. Sound was magnified, even if it was hard to pinpoint the origin. "And the fact that these tunnels have vents means the chimney effect would smoke you out, asphyxiate you, or barbecue you."
Silence.
He held his breath, listening.
Crack.
His right knee exploded with blinding pain as Mara cannoned out horizontally, Force-assisted, from a side conduit and caught his leg on the joint with her boots, ripping the tendons. As he lost his footing in the narrow passage, screaming, he found himself wedged for a second and groping for support. He lashed out with his lightsaber, shaving powdery brick from the wall. Mara dropped to the muddy floor to dodge the lightsaber, then sprang up and sprinted away down the tunnel.
But how skilled is Revan? He was able to fight with two lightsabers which is extremely difficult. Many martial artists can't master it.
but I think I deal with theoretical, unpredictability and unknowns
I also think Simus could beat Revan because he is an unknown because we know survived being decapitated from Ragnos and he is ancient sith who may know techniques that even Revan doesn't know about.........
What if Revan unleashed a focused FS on Caedus or severed his connection to the Force during a lightsaber battle?
We'll never know because they are seperated by 4,000 years.Which is why make logical decisions based on the known facts of characters. There is some speculation invloved vs threads but you are taking speculation too far, which is why unknowns which Revan can be considered should not be used in vs threads.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I did mention that Sidious invented many powers that he utilized and had at his disposal. But, the original knowledge that was passed to him was from Revan from his Master Pelagius. There was no line of succession so, Caedus would never have the power to defeat Sidious.
I already answered this, Sidious's knowledge is not just limited to what Bane passed down. (who btw had access to Belia Darzu' and Freedon Nadd's holcorons) Sidious had access to other sources even from the ancient sith themselves such as Naga Sadow's holocron among others.
You bring up exact points there Elite! The more ancient, the stronger because they have a broader knowledge of Sith and dark side powers. Nadd would destroy Revan because Revan did not have Nadd's knowledge. That is exactly my point - he (Caedus) didn't have the full knowledge of dark side power. But nonetheless, Caedus was of the dark side. He could have exploited the teachings he learned from the Shadow Academy. I'm not counting FL.
Revan's knowledge of the dark side and the Sith ecplised Caedus. Jacen went on the five year journey and discovered many powers that he could use against Revan. But Revan has ancient Sith and dark side power that Caedus wouldn't know about because Lumiya & Vergere didn't teach him. Bane learned more about the dark side and the Sith in a few weeks than Jacen/Caedus learned in five years. Bane learned those powers from Revan's holocron.
Lethal do you remember the phrase "knowledge is power?" Revan sought knowledge thus giving him enourmous power in the dark side. The Sith before him knew more about Sith and dark side powers than Revan did. Caedus doesn't know the ancient powers which is safe to assume that they are far more lethal and destructive. But a serious question is, why didn't Caedus seek those powers? It baffles me.