Marvel Universe VS. Mortal Kombat...FIGHT!!!!

Comicbook_kid Crom's champion

As we all know, they just came out with the DC Universe Vs. Mortal Kombat video game, which I thought was pretty good. Yeah, it's corny seeing someone like Sonya Blade beating up Superman, Kano beating up Captain Marvel, or even Joker beating up Raiden... but hey...it's a video game.

Anyway, I always thought that a "Marvel Universe Vs. Mortal Kombat" game would be a MUCH better idea; with the combatants being somewhat closer in terms of power and skill. Here is a list of the battles that I thought would be cool for a Marvel Vs. MK tournament...all you have to do is list who YOU think which combatant would come out the victor of each match... and who you think which team would come out the over-all victor of the tournament...the Marvel Universe or the MK Universe?? Now...FIGHT!!!

Here are the matches...

1 - Luke Cage VS. Jax =

2 - Electra VS. Mileena =

3 - Black Widow VS. Sonya Blade =

4 - The Lizard VS. Reptile =

5 - Ice-Man VS. Sub-Zero =

6 - Iron Fist VS. Lui Kang =

7 - Daredevil VS. Johnny Cage =

8 - Dr. Octopus VS. Kintaro =

9 - The Vision VS. Cyrax =

10 - The Punisher VS. Stryker =

11 - She-Hulk VS. Sheeva =

12 - Daken VS. Baraka =

13 - Classic Ghost Rider VS. Scorpion =

14 - Dr. Strange VS. Shinnok =

15 - Classic Thor VS. Raiden =

16 - Gray Hulk VS. Motoro =

17 - Beast VS. Goro =

18 - Classic Iron Man VS. Sektor =

19 - Hawkeye VS. Nightwolf =

20 - Storm VS. Sindel =

21 - Captain America VS. Hsu Hao =

22 - Winter Soldier VS. Kano =

23 - Blade VS. Nitara =

24 - Mystique VS. Shang Tsung =

And the Final Match (and possible Tie-Breaker).....

25 - Hercules VS. Shao Kahn =

It's the fate of two universes hanging in the balance...which team comes out the victor???

Newjak I am Beyond Power

Re: Marvel Universe VS. Mortal Kombat...FIGHT!!!!

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid

Here are the matches...
1 - Luke Cage VS. Jax = Luke cage
2 - Electra VS. Mileena = Electra
3 - Black Widow VS. Sonya Blade = Sonya Blade
4 - The Lizard VS. Reptile = Reptile
5 - Ice-Man VS. Sub-Zero = Ice Man
6 - Iron Fist VS. Lui Kang = Iron Fist
7 - Daredevil VS. Johnny Cage = Johnny Cage
8 - Dr. Octopus VS. Kintaro = Kintaro
9 - The Vision VS. Cyrax = Vision
10 - The Punisher VS. Stryker = Punisher
11 - She-Hulk VS. Sheeva = she-Hulk
12 - Daken VS. Baraka = Daken
13 - Classic Ghost Rider VS. Scorpion = Scorpion
14 - Dr. Strange VS. Shinnok = Dr. Strange
15 - Classic Thor VS. Raiden = Classic Thor
16 - Gray Hulk VS. Motoro = Gray Hulk
17 - Beast VS. Goro = Goro
18 - Classic Iron Man VS. Sektor = Iron Man
19 - Hawkeye VS. Nightwolf = Nightwolf
20 - Storm VS. Sindel = Sindel
21 - Captain America VS. Hsu Hao = Captain America
22 - Winter Soldier VS. Kano = Winter Soldier
23 - Blade VS. Nitara = Nitara
24 - Mystique VS. Shang Tsung = Shang tsung
And the Final Match (and possible Tie-Breaker).....
25 - Hercules VS. Shao Kahn = Shao Khan if he uses his more exotic godly like powers. Pure brawl I'm going with Herc in a very lopsided beating.

Here's how I see them going

Comicbook_kid Crom's champion

Re: Re: Marvel Universe VS. Mortal Kombat...FIGHT!!!!

Originally posted by Newjak
Here's how I see them going

Very cool and interesting choices....thanks for your opinions!

What do the rest of you think about Newjak's choices?

Vally Doosh Senior Member

Re: Re: Re: Marvel Universe VS. Mortal Kombat...FIGHT!!!!

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
Very cool and interesting choices....thanks for your opinions!
What do the rest of you think about Newjak's choices?

They suck like the rest of Newjak's choices.

batdude123 Fellow Tu Quoqumber

I think they're just dandy.

Newjak I am Beyond Power

Re: Re: Re: Re: Marvel Universe VS. Mortal Kombat...FIGHT!!!!

Originally posted by Vally Doosh
They suck like the rest of Newjak's choices.

I chose you ha-son

Vally Doosh Senior Member

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Marvel Universe VS. Mortal Kombat...FIGHT!!!!

Originally posted by Newjak
I chose you ha-son

uhuh

Newjak I am Beyond Power

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Marvel Universe VS. Mortal Kombat...FIGHT!!!!

Originally posted by Vally Doosh
uhuh

biscuits

jinzin Senior Member

Re: Marvel Universe VS. Mortal Kombat...FIGHT!!!!

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
As we all know, they just came out with the DC Universe Vs. Mortal Kombat video game, which I thought was pretty good. Yeah, it's corny seeing someone like Sonya Blade beating up Superman, Kano beating up Captain Marvel, or even Joker beating up Raiden... but hey...it's a video game.
Anyway, I always thought that a "Marvel Universe Vs. Mortal Kombat" game would be a MUCH better idea; with the combatants being somewhat closer in terms of power and skill. Here is a list of the battles that I thought would be cool for a Marvel Vs. MK tournament...all you have to do is list who YOU think which combatant would come out the victor of each match... and who you think which team would come out the over-all victor of the tournament...the Marvel Universe or the MK Universe?? Now...FIGHT!!!
Here are the matches...

Good matchups here. While I don't agree that DC outstrips MK to a massive degree I do think the game did a poor job of MK character representation and storytelling to make matchups interesting. Anyways here de picks

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
1 - Luke Cage VS. Jax =

Great matchup here. Both strong, well rounded fighters, could take this either way. At first thought one might believe a solid hit on jax and it's over but you'd be wrong. Before Jax' metalic arms were added onto him he was a strong enough contender to trade blows with Kintaro, lift 300plus pounds for reps of up to 400 without breaking a sweat and quake the ground with punches. So he can take A Luke Cage punch. I'd say the addition of the metallic arms give Jax the advantage of reach, but it's doubtful if his blast or his rockets would even affect Luke much.
I fell comfortable calling this an even draw though if either combatant got an advantage here it would be jax because of his reach.

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
2 - Electra VS. Mileena =

Harder to call, we haven't really seen much of what Mileena can do outside of game mechanics. And while she has a few powers using teleportation and chi formed projectiles I just don't think that they would work against Elektra's sensory perception. I also don't think Mileena's Tarkatan brain has any defence against Elektra's mind tricks and telepathy. Due to Elektra's sheer speed I also don't see Mileena making any use of her strength. 7-8/10 Elektra.

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
3 - Black Widow VS. Sonya Blade =

Well, what's faster the Widow's Bite or the Ring of Doom? Whoever can whip out their projectile faster on the draw wins the fight IMO, but from what I've seenand what I know Widow's superior speed, experience, and presumabley fighting skill would be too much for Sonya to handle. Widow 6/10

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
4 - The Lizard VS. Reptile =

Another good fight. Both strong, fast, and primal. Thing is, while Conners relies entirely on his physicality in a fight, reptile doesn't. With a combination of acid spit, explosive orbs, razor sharp tongue, invisability, agility, and about ten thousand years of fighting experience, I don't see Lizard lasting longer than the minute or so it would take reptile to get past his hyde. 😬 Reptile 9/10

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
5 - Ice-Man VS. Sub-Zero =

Iceman's got the whole molecular control over ice thing goin for him. And while Subzero can control ice to a mass degree it takes it's toll on him. All Iceman has to do is wait him out. Iceman 10/10

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
6 - Iron Fist VS. Lui Kang =

Both use a wealth of powerful chi based attacks, both are supremely fast fighters, and both are accustomed to fighting and beating enemies that far exceed their own capabilities in sheer power. I think this is another likely draw. 5/5.

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
7 - Daredevil VS. Johnny Cage =

Cage gets handled. He doesn't have the focus to deal with DD's agility, experience, and radar sense. While naturally talented, and possessing chi based powers of his own, I just don't see him getting past the radar sense, and I think he'd be likely to get outsmarted. DD 7-8/10

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
8 - Dr. Octopus VS. Kintaro =

With regular tenticals? Pretty sure the combination of strength, speed and power would overwhelm Doc fairly quickly especially when Kintaro's arms are strong enough and plentiful enough to negotiate every one of Doc's tenticals.... Kintaro 10/10

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
9 - The Vision VS. Cyrax =

Cyrax doesn't have anything that can contend with Vision's ability to phase. Vision 10/10

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
10 - The Punisher VS. Stryker =

Stryker's tough but he's a rookie. Punishers experience and variety of range clench the win for him here. Punisher 9/10

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
11 - She-Hulk VS. Sheeva =

Shiva's a lot weaker than her bretheran. She might be able to outfight She Hulk but I doubt she has what it takes to put she hulk down. She Hulk 7/10

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
12 - Daken VS. Baraka =

Still haven't seen enough of Daken IMO. He has the smarts to take Baraka down and the tools but Baraka's a tank with a high damage and pain talerance. One hit from Baraka and Daken will be on the receiving end of his own funeral. Still not enough info to call IMO. ?/?

jinzin Senior Member

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
13 - Classic Ghost Rider VS. Scorpion =

Good fight, but it's another draw. Neither character can hurt the other enough for a win. Scorpion has the only way of getting a victory by BFR.... so barring that it's a 5/5 split.

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
14 - Dr. Strange VS. Shinnok =

Tough call. We never see what Shinnok can really do, only hear about how powerful he was from Raiden. In terms of sheer power he's half the reason that Earthrealm went into an Ice-age in the MK verse but Strange has always been a contender for his type. Warlock and WWH are prime examples. I tend to think Strange takes this but I can't honestly say. 😬 ?/?

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
15 - Classic Thor VS. Raiden=

Depends on if Thor's hammer can aquire any control over Raiden's powers. If he can Raiden's Finished. If he can't, we're in for a great fight. In a straight up I think this is another draw. Both have vast amounts of experience though I will say Raiden's probably the more gifted when it comes to martial arts. I don't see any powers outright from either here that greatly outstrips the other. Draw 5/5

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
16 - Gray Hulk VS. Motoro =

Motoro's supposedly weaker than Goro so I'm under the impression Motoro has not much of a chance here. Even with his range I don't think it helps much. 😬
Hulk 9-10/10

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
17 - Beast VS. Goro =

Not much Beast can do but stay out of Goro's way. With his experience, strength, and chi based attacks he'd have Beast put entirely on the defensive IMO. Goro 9-10/10

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
18 - Classic Iron Man VS. Sektor =

Better fight than the vision one. Sektor's a better fighter upclose, probably a lot faster and has netting and bombs that would have Iron Man wise to be careful. His body is durable enough to navigate through lava so it'd be surprising to see if Iron Man could do serious damage with his repulsors even. I'd say if this were current Iron Man he'd pull the win, but with classic armor, he goes down. Sektor 7/10

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
19 - Hawkeye VS. Nightwolf =

In a regular arena matchup, probably Nightwolf, but only because he can rein lightning on Hawkeye before Hawk's even managed to draw an arrow. In a h2h fight, I think Hawkeye's good enough to win, and in a ranged matchup-obviously. But with Nightwolf's lightning there's not much his opponent can do to defend himself.

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
20 - Storm VS. Sindel =

Sindel's scream would be a pain in Storms ass, and her hair would make close combat a defnite nono, but storm doesn't have to fight upclose so she wins pretty easily. storm 10/10

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
21 - Captain America VS. Hsu Hao =

pffft. Hsu's skills are mediocre at best. His range is meaningless against' Cap's shield and he doesn't even have an experience factor to speak of. Unless Cap's a big fan of the Village People, Hsu loses this fight 10/10

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
22 - Winter Soldier VS. Kano =

Kano's a better fighter than Hsu at least and Bucky's not at Cap's level, plus Kano most likely has a strength advantage so it's a much closer matchup. It would be interesting to see this fight get up close because Bucky can do some serious damage with that arm while Kano's eye beam's nothing to scoff at. Winter Soldier though, has the agility and the skills to take Kano down quick while Kano's a talker... Winter Soldier wins 7/10

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
23 - Blade VS. Nitara =

Nitara's not exceptionally impressive in any facet lest her ability to manipulate. In a fight she loses this. Blade 8/10

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
24 - Mystique VS. Shang Tsung =

Both can change their form but only one of them has hundreds of years experience, chi bases attacks and can actually memic the powers of the people he changes in to. Plus, he has the ability to steal your strength and add it to his own in mid battle. Mystique doesn't even begin to have a chance here unless she had prep, and he didn't know he was in a fight. 😐 SHang Tsung 10/10

Originally posted by Comicbook_kid
And the Final Match (and possible Tie-Breaker).....
25 - Hercules VS. Shao Kahn =

Herc's probably got a strength advantage but.... that's it. 😬
You have to consider that Shao Khan has every ability that Tsung has and then some... and then some! While in a slug fest Herc might be able to win even with Khan stealing his powers, in a typical fight Khan just has waaaaay too much sorcery at his disposal on top of being a frikkin tank. Shao Khan 10/10. 9 if Herc somehow managed to close the gap on him before he could make use of it.

Comicbook_kid Crom's champion

HELL YEAH!!! Now that's what I call one hell of a reply to a match.

Jinzin, THANK YOU for such well thought out, informative, and insightful break-downs of each of the matches. VERY cool!!!!! 🙂 I really enjoyed reading all of your comments! Great job dude.

Now this folks is how you examine and dissect a match. Would like to see more commentary like this on here instead of the usual crap responses I normally see on here.

Anybody else wanna break it down how they think the matches would go?

Bouboumaster Senior Member

1 - Luke Cage VS. Jax = Luke Cage 10/10. Titanium skin + 50 tons punch in the face ftw

2 - Electra VS. Mileena = Elektra 7/10. Mileena is a great fighter, but Elektra have a low lvl of telepathy that could really tip the scale for her.

3 - Black Widow VS. Sonya Blade = Who ever win this fight, we are the real winners. (But Black Widow would win 6/10.)

4 - The Lizard VS. Reptile = I don't agree with you, guys. Yes, Reptile have versatility and infinitly more skillz that the Lizard, but Connor have a crazy ass healing factor, and, if my memories are good, he's a 25 tonners. I say the Lizard more often than not, 7/10.

5 - Ice-Man VS. Sub-Zero = Ice-Man pwn 10/10

6 - Iron Fist VS. Lui Kang = On this one, I'll go with Liu with, let say, 6/10. Both are great fighter, but in MK, Liu is THE greatest. His skillz gives him the opportunity to beat the most powerfull villains in his universe.

7 - Daredevil VS. Johnny Cage = Daredevil 8/10. Cage's good, but not good enough to keep it with Murdock. Plus, DD got his sticks.

8 - Dr. Octopus VS. Kintaro = Kintaro would murder Octopus in a one shot... If he were able to come near him. A bloodlust Octopus would one-shot him with a tentacle in the face. And Kintaro couldn't do nothing about it, since he's no Spider-Man or Wolverine or anybody fast enough to whistand them. Octopus 9/10

9 - The Vision VS. Cyrax = Vision pwn 10/10

10 - The Punisher VS. Stryker = Stryker is a noob and Punisher **** around with metahuman. Frank 8/10

11 - She-Hulk VS. Sheeva = She-Hulk is skilled, and she's a 70 toners. She win 10/10

12 - Daken VS. Baraka = Daken win via Healing Factor 7/10

13 - Classic Ghost Rider VS. Scorpion = Ghost Rider can't loose this one. He pwn 10/10 and destroy Scorpion, once for all.

14 - Dr. Strange VS. Shinnok = The dude have fought Shuma-Gorath in the past, and he's backed by the Vishantis, while Shinock have trouble with some humans. Strange win 10/10

15 - Classic Thor VS. Raiden = Raiden have the skillz, but he also got a ftl hammer in the face. Thor 10/10

16 - Gray Hulk VS. Motoro = 70 toner vs... that creature. Hulk smash and win 10/10

17 - Beast VS. Goro = Good fight, but Beast 8/10 via agility, strenght and intelligence.

18 - Classic Iron Man VS. Sektor = Classic Iron Mansucked. His only advantage was to fly and strenght. Sektor got him on versality, agility and skillz. If it comes to h2h, Iron Man would have trouble. Sektor 7/10

19 - Hawkeye VS. Nightwolf = Nightwolf is less skilled, but have other power that gives him the win 8/10

20 - Storm VS. Sindel = Sindel win: more skillz, and her power can be summoned fast enough to gives Storm real problem. BUT if Storm is able, during the match, to call her power, Sindel is dead.
6,5/10 to Sindel, if she act quickly.

21 - Captain America VS. Hsu Hao = Hsu Hao suxx, and Steve Rogers pwn. Captain America 10/10

22 - Winter Soldier VS. Kano = Boom Head Shot. Winter Soldier 8/10

23 - Blade VS. Nitara = A vampire against the most deadly vampire killer. Blade 8 or 9/10

24 - Mystique VS. Shang Tsung = Shang Tsung win via soul suck and skillz. Mystique is skilled, but she don't know the kung fu like Shang Tsy does! 😛 8/10 to the dude.

And the Final Match (and possible Tie-Breaker).....

25 - Hercules VS. Shao Kahn =
Hercules broke Shao Kahn face with one punch 10/10. C'mon! Shao Kahn have difficulties against ****in' Liu Kang. Just imagine how it would suck for him to fight a master of wrestling who can hold 100 tons in his hands. And that's if Hercules doesn't decide to fr him in the space.

Comicbook_kid Crom's champion

Great job Bouboumaster...awesome responses. Very nice!!

jinzin Senior Member

Just a few things.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
1 - Luke Cage VS. Jax = Luke Cage 10/10. Titanium skin + 50 tons punch in the face ftw

Once again, Jax had super strength and super durability enough to fight Shokan's like Kintaro before the arms. A 50 ton punch isn't going to do much to put him down.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
8 - Dr. Octopus VS. Kintaro = Kintaro would murder Octopus in a one shot... If he were able to come near him. A bloodlust Octopus would one-shot him with a tentacle in the face. And Kintaro couldn't do nothing about it, since he's no Spider-Man or Wolverine or anybody fast enough to whistand them. Octopus 9/10

Not sure why you think Octopus can one shot Kintaro. Once again he's a Shokan, these guys are bricks that pick up massive pillars and use them for baseball bats. Most estimate them to be in the 80-100 ton class.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
15 - Classic Thor VS. Raiden = Raiden have the skillz, but he also got a ftl hammer in the face. Thor 10/10

lol

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
25 - Hercules VS. Shao Kahn =
Hercules broke Shao Kahn face with one punch 10/10. C'mon! Shao Kahn have difficulties against ****in' Liu Kang. Just imagine how it would suck for him to fight a master of wrestling who can hold 100 tons in his hands. And that's if Hercules doesn't decide to fr him in the space.

hmmm you're not interpretting the storyline accurately here.
The only time Shao Khan had a problem with Lui Kang was during the second MK Tournement but multiple character bios allude to the fact that he was fighting off multiple opponents in the last "match" of the tourney and this is further supported in multiple tellings of the story. Keep in mind that when he allowed himself to participate in the MK tourney, his powers were reduced to that of a mortal giving the MK gang a much more reasonable chance to win. There's also the point that the whole MK II tourney was nothing more than a red herring to put his invasion plans into action which means the outcome of the tourney may not even be legitimate. When Shao Khan invaded Earthrealm bypassing the tournement it took nothing less than Raiden fighting at his full to get Khan to retreat and in some bios support that the elder gods may have even helped which should give some indication to the sorcerers power.

Mindset Senior Member

Jinzin, how wouldn't Ghost Rider beat Scorpion for a majority?

Is Scorpion immune to the penance stare for some reason?

Also, hellfire affects the soul and body.

jinzin Senior Member

Scorpion uses hellfire too. 😐 He's a champion of both heaven and hell, and he's not really a coporial being unless he wants to be. He's a spectre and he's already been engulfed in the deepest pits of the neather realm... and embraced it. I doubt the Penance stare would do much of anything to get the win. The reason why neither of these two can win in a physical matchup is because they both have the ability to instataneously reform after being damaged.

Mindset Senior Member

Originally posted by jinzin
Scorpion uses hellfire too. 😐 He's a champion of both heaven and hell, and he's not really a coporial being unless he wants to be. He's a spectre and he's already been engulfed in the deepest pits of the neather realm... and embraced it. I doubt the Penance stare would do much of anything to get the win. The reason why neither of these two can win in a physical matchup is because they both have the ability to instataneously reform after being damaged.

Mortal Kombat hellfire is the same as Marvel, I wasn't aware the same name made them equivalent, sorry. 😐 See, I can use that smiley for no reason too.

Ghost Rider was able to defeat Lucifer, although at half power, with his hellfire, what has Scorpion done?

I'm not sure how being in the nether realm equates to the penance stare not doing anything to him. Ghost Rider is able to kill demons and angels with it.

jinzin Senior Member

Originally posted by Mindset
Mortal Kombat hellfire is the same as Marvel, I wasn't aware the same name made them equivalent, sorry. 😐 See, I can use that smiley for no reason too.
Ghost Rider was able to defeat Lucifer, although at half power, with his hellfire, what has Scorpion done?

So you assume them to be completely different... yeah.. that makes sense. 🙄

...which would be near impressive if Lucifer didn't bounce up and down the scale with no explanation whatsoever. His hellfire also didn't work on Venom...
As for Scorpion. Oh nothing much... aside from becoming a champion of heaven and hell, taking over the neather realm and forcing both quan chi and shinnok into hiding. 😐

Originally posted by Mindset
I'm not sure how being in the nether realm equates to the penance stare not doing anything to him. Ghost Rider is able to kill demons and angels with it.

And some are completely unaffected by it. All depends on who he's staring down. Basically my rationale is that if Scorpion doesn't have a soul and was already tortured by his own sins to a point of comfort that he embraced it and overcame it, I doubt the stare would to much.

There's really no point in carrying this discussion any further since evidence doesn't exist as to what would happen one way or the other. If it works GR wins. If it doesn't, stalemate or BFR for scorpion. My opinion is that it likely wouldn't. If you feel inclined differently that's fine.

I-Drop Privateer

Sho Kahn can shapeshift?

Bouboumaster Senior Member

Originally posted by jinzin
Just a few things.
Once again, Jax had super strength and super durability enough to fight Shokan's like Kintaro before the arms. A 50 ton punch isn't going to do much to put him down.

What about a few? And would Jax punch be able to just, let say, hurt Cage?

hmmm you're not interpretting the storyline accurately here. The only time Shao Khan had a problem with Lui Kang was during the second MK Tournement but multiple character bios allude to the fact that he was fighting off multiple opponents in the last "match" of the tourney and this is further supported in multiple tellings of the story. Keep in mind that when he allowed himself to participate in the MK tourney, his powers were reduced to that of a mortal giving the MK gang a much more reasonable chance to win. There's also the point that the whole MK II tourney was nothing more than a red herring to put his invasion plans into action which means the outcome of the tourney may not even be legitimate. When Shao Khan invaded Earthrealm bypassing the tournement it took nothing less than Raiden fighting at his full to get Khan to retreat and in some bios support that the elder gods may have even helped which should give some indication to the sorcerers power.

Even if he's depowered in Earth Realm, do you think he stand a chance against the GOD OF STRENGHT? Ares is the God of War, and I see Shao Khan having problems with him, but Hercules would stomp. He's one hundred tons class and more. Didn't he lifted Manathan recently?

Which Team comes out the Victor?