Catholics and birth control

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Besides, the Church isn't handing out condoms to them on the basis that "God is good, condoms are not." So, yeah, while I'm usually the one defending religion here there's really no doubt that Christian evangelism in the Third World is doing huge amounts of damage.

I am aware, and where we (Christians) aim for the fact of both no condoms and higher emotional transcendence, we usuall never get one or the other (or in many cases either). But we have to stand by what we say. The doctrines don't need to change, the peopel do.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I don't recall Job giving up despite all the hardships he was put through.

The Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do everything, and that no though can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee and declare unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but not mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. (Job 42:1-6)

Originally posted by King of Blades
The Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do everything, and that no though can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee and declare unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but not mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. (Job 42:1-6)

He never gave up...a temporary loss of faith perhaps...but he continued to struggle through...

Either why Job teaches us the importance of struggling through no matter what we face and keeping the fact no matter how hard it is...for His ways are not our ways.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
He never gave up...a temporary loss of faith perhaps...but he continued to struggle through...

Either why Job teaches us the importance of struggling through no matter what we face and keeping the fact no matter how hard it is...for His ways are not our ways.

No no, you're right he never gave up to man. But when God said you did he said you're right. God only said this to humble Job (not that that was neccessary) but merely that God has final say. And indeed God was just and fair and said to his friends "you're all a**holes" (I think that's the King of Blades versions whistling)

Originally posted by Da Pittman
OK, that really doesn't make any scene at all, how is using natural spermicide not made by God? Natural spermicides are not made by man, hence the "natural" part. You are taking advantage of what God created, even with a condom God created man to think and to create and that is a part of his creation, is it not? How is a spermicide ending up with a "dead person", do you even know what a spermicide is?

What is this "impulse" thing? So just for 2 days out of the month you have to control your impulse but the rest you can go hog wild, that makes no scene at all. Condoms do not lead to "he I got one, lets do it" anymore than "I'm only fertile 2 days of the month, so lets do it".

The end result in either situation is that you want to have sex and not get her pregnant so by pulling out, condoms or not fertile cycles it is still the same thing. All are an impulse thing only you have to watch out for 2 days out of the month and if you even count the time that sperm can live that is still only 4 days. So exactly is this curbing the impulse thing? You could say that avid users of condoms also have impulse control that they will not have sex if they don't have one.

What about the women that have to take the pill for medical reasons?

Originally posted by King of Blades
That was directed to Systematic Chaos, not to you.

Second, you referred to my comment as a basis to your post and your comment as to what I posted was totally incorrect.

Questions asked.

1. Do you even know what a natural spermicide is?
2. What about women that take the pill for medical reasons, are they in sin?
3. How is killing sperm killing people?

You can create a natural spermicide just by your diet, this help to prevent the implantation of the egg. How is this any different then wearing a condom? These are things that God created, we have to eat and some people choose to eat these God created things with the benefit of helping to prevent pregnancy. Women can use natural lubricant such as aloe vera, lemon juice and yams just to name a few that act as a spermicide, these all were created by God.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Well first off am I not worthy for you to respond to my questions,

NO! No shut up.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
NO! No shut up.

the catholic church took the breed them out method, from the mex. catholic church,, the same plan with the america plan with mex.. only on a global scale... zinc

Originally posted by King of Blades
Not at all, I mentioned clearly before that "Catholics view that our passions, when off from our intellect, are the cause of our follies as mortals. Only when when return the balance between our appetites and our reasoning do we then truly enjoy what God has given us."

I agree with that. Sadly it is totally unrelated to the use of condoms or spermicide.

Originally posted by King of Blades
Killing sperm by wearing a condom or by spermicide are both means of accomplishing a goal but by means other then what God originally intended. Steming from the will of God is sinful.

Before I lose track of myself (cause I'm multi-tasking here) here is what I'm saying:

The "they both accomplish the same thing/no differentiation" is clearly an invalid form of argument seeing that you don't apply that same reasoning to murder/self-defense.

The reason that NFP is better then rhythm is statistics. (Natural vs. Natural)
The reason why NFP is better then spermicide/condoms is because they are both artificial remedies that plays a direct role in the killing of sperm and go against the intentions of God during creation. (Natural vs. Unnatrual and playing God).
Hence why anything other then NFP is discouraged and/or prohibited.

How do you know that wearing a condom or using spermicide are things that God never intended? Is this just an arbitrary distinction you've drawn or is there some sort of basis for it?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I don't recall Job giving up despite all the hardships he was put through.

I recall Job being an extraordinary man.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Well first off am I not worthy for you to respond to my questions, after all I did start this thread. 😉

For the record, you creating this thread has absolutely no say as to whom I direct my comments. You presented the topic and the topic is what I address. If you happen to be the target of my responses then I will speak to you, if somebody else then it's somebody else. Why speak to the wall if your audience is the bird?

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Second, you referred to my comment as a basis to your post and your comment as to what I posted was totally incorrect.

Though this is true, because that's what a response usually entails, I addressed the "not the same" matter. That, and where I never do this in a conversation, I will place my foot down and say that it is correct. Given the case that both examples produce similar results with two separate means of achieving them BY THE PRECEDENCE that one case applies one better then the other (the ends do not justify the means) it behooves the similar case to follow suit. Therefore we see that though spermicides, NFP, and a condom both achieve the same thing, there are amongst them one better then the other. Which that one is (personal reasons aside) has not been mentioned nor is it part of the argument that neither of the cases allows the "they're both the same" case.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Questions asked.

1. Do you even know what a natural spermicide is?
2. What about women that take the pill for medical reasons, are they in sin?
3. How is killing sperm killing people?

1). Yes
2). The pill is one of many medical remedies. There are others (and better if I recall correctly) medicines and/or "pills" that would deal with the given disease.
3). Nothing I ever said formed a correlation in sperm and people. Methods of killing either was the topic of my conversation (as the above mentioned explains clearer).

However I want to touch base about something in your second question. Please understand, what makes the pill so condemning within the Catholic church and other Christian Denominations is the fact that it works as an abortifacient. And abortion is irreconcilable in the eyes of any Christian and/or Catholic doctrine. Therefore let us presume this scenario:

If Sally was told by Dr. Joe that she needed to take the pill for illness-X, and Sally is not sexually active, then there is no abortion on the bases of the pill. Theoretically, since there is no abortion or threatening of the child's life, there is no sin. However when she succumbs to temptation or has a moment of weakness the abortion is performed and Sally's in some deep trouble. But this is only the case (given the above premise to be true) that taking the pill without being sexually active (and with no other alternative) would be, within the realm of theory, to be perfectly alright.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
You can create a natural spermicide just by your diet, this help to prevent the implantation of the egg. How is this any different then wearing a condom? These are things that God created, we have to eat and some people choose to eat these God created things with the benefit of helping to prevent pregnancy. Women can use natural lubricant such as aloe vera, lemon juice and yams just to name a few that act as a spermicide, these all were created by God.

Yes but aloe vera (the cream I'm guessing, not the actual plant juice), yams, and even lemon juices aren't taken in their complete natural form. They are either processed or manufactured or created in which case none of the above mentioned are natural at all. Further more, they go beyond the intended use of the item. It's not because they can be used as "natural spermicides" (and I quote to use the term loosely) that they ought to be used as such.

An Egyptian papyrus dating from 1850 B.C. describes a mixture of dough and crocodile dung that was inserted into the woman in order to prevent pregnancy. It would block the sperm and, because of its acidic nature, perhaps also act as a spermicide.

It comes a hell of a lot closer to being truly natural, but never closer to being correct.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I agree with that. Sadly it is totally unrelated to the use of condoms or spermicide.

Quite the contrary it has everything to do with it. People have sex based on the impulse. Not that this is bad, but impulsive sex is not love at it's fullest. Consensual and understood and chosen sex transcends beyond the "bodily function" and into the realm of true unity between two people. Condoms and spermicides are immediate remedies for impulsive desires. Where waiting "tempers desires" and allows choice and reasoning to decide (not the thing between your legs) when you wish to partake in the act.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
How do you know that wearing a condom or using spermicide are things that God never intended? Is this just an arbitrary distinction you've drawn or is there some sort of basis for it?

All bad things are unnatural, but not all unnatural things are bad.

Man plays God when wearing a condom or using spermicide. He is deciding what life he wants to bring in and what life he doesn't. The woman is playing God when she takes the pill and aborts the fetus, by ending a life she does not wish to begin. Man plays God artificially and it is in these artificial means where there is immorality. Not arbitrarily; logically.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I recall Job being an extraordinary man.

The story of Job was to give the deuteronomic code the finger
bad things can happen to good people

Originally posted by King of Blades
All bad things are unnatural, but not all unnatural things are bad.

Man plays God when wearing a condom or using spermicide. He is deciding what life he wants to bring in and what life he doesn't. The woman is playing God when she takes the pill and aborts the fetus, by ending a life she does not wish to begin. Man plays God artificially and it is in these artificial means where there is immorality. Not arbitrarily; logically.

You're completely batshit insane.

Originally posted by King of Blades
For the record, you creating this thread has absolutely no say as to whom I direct my comments. You presented the topic and the topic is what I address. If you happen to be the target of my responses then I will speak to you, if somebody else then it's somebody else. Why speak to the wall if your audience is the bird?

Originally posted by King of Blades
1). Yes
2). The pill is one of many medical remedies. There are others (and better if I recall correctly) medicines and/or "pills" that would deal with the given disease.
3). Nothing I ever said formed a correlation in sperm and people. Methods of killing either was the topic of my conversation (as the above mentioned explains clearer).

However I want to touch base about something in your second question. Please understand, what makes the pill so condemning within the Catholic church and other Christian Denominations is the fact that it works as an abortifacient. And abortion is irreconcilable in the eyes of any Christian and/or Catholic doctrine. Therefore let us presume this scenario:

If Sally was told by Dr. Joe that she needed to take the pill for illness-X, and Sally is not sexually active, then there is no abortion on the bases of the pill. Theoretically, since there is no abortion or threatening of the child's life, there is no sin. However when she succumbs to temptation or has a moment of weakness the abortion is performed and Sally's in some deep trouble. But this is [b]only the case (given the above premise to be true) that taking the pill without being sexually active (and with no other alternative) would be, within the realm of theory, to be perfectly alright. [/B]

Originally posted by King of Blades
Yes but aloe vera (the cream I'm guessing, not the actual plant juice), yams, and even lemon juices aren't taken in their complete natural form. They are either processed or manufactured or created in which case none of the above mentioned are natural at all. Further more, they go beyond the intended use of the item. It's not because they can be used as "natural spermicides" (and I quote to use the term loosely) that they ought to be used as such.

If you are having sex for anything but trying to have a baby then you are using them for not the intended purpose by your logic.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You're completely batshit insane.

You may not agree with my views, this much is certain, but name calling isn't necessary and I am not insane.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
It was a joke 😆 Granted a bad one like most of my jokes

Originally posted by Da Pittman
So if you are on the pill you can’t have sex? Not all pills kill the egg after implantation, some prevent it in the first place. Not all pills are the same.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
You can eat natural food for which it was intended and get the same effect, you can use them also in their natural form as well.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
If you are having sex for anything but trying to have a baby then you are using them for not the intended purpose by your logic.

Sex is both unitive and procreative. To have sex not for babies (for either economic reasons or the couple is not ready to have a baby) that doesn't mean they can't have sex. Hence the Natural Family Planning.

Originally posted by King of Blades
I have yet to find a diet whose effects are spermicide. I have read of food altering the sperm itself but never to the point of its obliteration. If you could provide cases of dietary spermicide (natural perferably) I could better address your point. All the cases I have read into are spermicides that are applied.

Originally posted by King of Blades
Sex is both unitive and procreative. To have sex not for babies (for either economic reasons or the couple is not ready to have a baby) that doesn't mean they can't have sex. Hence the Natural Family Planning.

If you can not see the contradictions in what they teach there is not much I can help you with, you keep grabbing at straws to prove your point then throw them away as you need them to make another one. Can you show me one passage in the Bible that says wearing condoms is a sin?

Maybe you should check this out.
http://www.biblestudy.org/question/are-methods-preventing-pregnancy-permitted-in-bible.html

Nothing in the Bible says that you can't use birth control from spermicides to condoms and what ever as long as the sperm doesn't implant with the egg.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
I didn't say that eating food was a form of spermicide, I said that certain foods can act like birth control. By changing the bodies hormones and chemicals this can make it so that the body has a harder time implanting the egg or even fertilizing it. Having a bad diet or eating disorder can also cause havoc with the reproduction process or the environment for the sperm to live.

You may limit it, but it isn't a complete obliteration. There is still a chance for conception.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
What about my question? If a woman is on birth control for medical reasons they can not have sex by your opinion? What if you take a drug that makes your eggs not able to be fertilized? Life didn't take place because the egg was dead.

Originally posted by Da Pittman

If you can not see the contradictions in what they teach there is not much I can help you with, you keep grabbing at straws to prove your point then throw them away as you need them to make another one. Can you show me one passage in the Bible that says wearing condoms is a sin?

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Maybe you should check this out.
http://www.biblestudy.org/question/are-methods-preventing-pregnancy-permitted-in-bible.html

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Nothing in the Bible says that you can't use birth control from spermicides to condoms and what ever as long as the sperm doesn't implant with the egg.

Gal 5:20; Rev 9:2; Rev 21:8
These three passages condemn “sorcery”. However, the Greek word used is pharmakeia, a word denoting pharmaceutical contraceptives and abortificants.
`````````````````````````

There is a word or concept that states that the negative consequence of a neutral or good action are not guilt imposing upon the doer (especially when the consequence is an unavoidable/inevitable one). Here is a brief example:

I believe it was in the movie Master and Commander where the mast, during a storm, had collapsed and was going to sink the ship. The captain was going to cut the rope to the mast and save the crew except if he cut the rope he would kill the man in the crows nest. Now this is not the kill one to save a hundred because he is not directly killing the man in the crow's nest when he cuts the rope. He is instead cutting the rope (his direct action) and the direct consequence is the the mast is freed (the indirect consequence is that the man dies).

I wish I knew the word or phrase so that I could present to you a more adequate example, so bear with me for now.

Now let us identify your example with the pill and only the pill. Now if your wife were to have an illness that a certain pill (whose side effects would be infertility) then they would come as an unavoidable side effect. In other words the "dead egg" is not the direct goal of taking the pill. So you are not, as the captain is not, responsible for the "killing of the egg". However people who take the pill seldom have anything wrong with them and their motives are selfish and therefore immoral. We apply this case and scenario to an "only if[b] there was a woman [b]who had to take the pill. But it should be noted that, as I've said before, that there are multiple remedies for illnesses and you should check to see for others with less impacting side-effects. After all it is medically proven that prolonged uses of the pill leave permanent infertility.

What I think you are failing to understand is that the Catholic Church condemns the direct impediment of conception. As in I am performing a direct action (wearing the condom) in the hopes of stopping conception (a direct consequence of wearing the condom). However the results of NFP is not done by the couples. When the couple have sex around the woman's infertile period, the egg and the sperm not fertilizing is not a direct result of the actual man and woman (i.e. the man doesn't make the woman infertile/woman doesn't make man's egg not stick). These things occur through the natural process (one made by God). If you don't understand or this is all to confusing, then forget this last part.

Originally posted by King of Blades
You may limit it, but it isn't a complete obliteration. There is still a chance for conception.

Originally posted by King of Blades
I see no contradiction in their teachings seeing as they do not instruct one way and then expect another. Further more I do not understand where you believe I am pulling and throwing away straws here seeing as I haven't forgone any of my original standing. To add, you have yet to present to me anything concrete. If anything you are the one throwing straws, not me.

Originally posted by King of Blades
And? As a Catholic we are both Bible and Sacred Tradition. Doctrine finds its roots in both.

Originally posted by King of Blades
Gal 5:20; Rev 9:2; Rev 21:8
These three passages condemn “sorcery”. However, the Greek word used is pharmakeia, a word denoting pharmaceutical contraceptives and abortificants.

Originally posted by King of Blades
Now let us identify your example with the pill and only the pill. Now if your wife were to have an illness that a certain pill (whose side effects would be infertility) then they would come as an unavoidable side effect. In other words the "dead egg" is not the direct goal of taking the pill. So you are not, as the captain is not, responsible for the "killing of the egg". However people who take the pill seldom have anything wrong with them and their motives are selfish and therefore immoral. We apply this case and scenario to an "[b]only if[b] there was a woman [b]who had to take the pill. But it should be noted that, as I've said before, that there are multiple remedies for illnesses and you should check to see for others with less impacting side-effects. After all it is medically proven that prolonged uses of the pill leave permanent infertility.

What I think you are failing to understand is that the Catholic Church condemns the direct impediment of conception. As in I am performing a direct action (wearing the condom) in the hopes of stopping conception (a direct consequence of wearing the condom). However the results of NFP is not done by the couples. When the couple have sex around the woman's infertile period, the egg and the sperm not fertilizing is not a direct result of the actual man and woman (i.e. the man doesn't make the woman infertile/woman doesn't make man's egg not stick). These things occur through the natural process (one made by God). If you don't understand or this is all to confusing, then forget this last part. [/B]

Now what if I wanted to wear a condom during her infertile period, just to be safe or to prevent STD’s? What about the pull out method? This is were you are grabbing at straws, you say that the purpose of a condom is that it is not to get pregnant and that having sex during her infertile period is not to get pregnant but they are different? The purpose and reason are both the same, the sperm will not fertilize the egg and you are both doing it for the exact same reason. You want to have sex and not get pregnant.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Nothing is 100%, not even the pill or the morning after pill and your point is?

You keep saying that condoms are not natural so using them as birth control is against God, but I have shown you many things that are natural and you still say they are against God. I still have not seen anything that is proof that birth control is a sin against God, no passage or verse.

Say what? You say that condoms are condemned by God and they, who follow the same faith as you say otherwise.

So I looked up these passages and haven’t a clue has any of this has to deal with birth control or anything that I was talking about. Even looking at the definition of pharmakeia I do not even see the connection that you are referring to. The only reference to what you are talking about I could only find on Wiki “Further, and earlier schools of thought have understood the warning against Pharmakeia to be a ban on oral contraceptives that were in use at the time” which wasn’t much more than a footnote and not even a reliable source of information. Even in this reference it is a ban on ORAL contraceptives and nothing about spermicidal treatments or condoms.

One of the most common medical reasons for the pill is a hormone imbalance or severe menstrual cycles and millions of women are affected by this and one would be my wife jus to name one. They would be taking the pill to balance their hormones and not the effect of birth control so you point would fail their as in the case of my wife and millions of other women. There is nothing out there that has been shown to come even close to the effects of the pill to balance hormones and reduce the severity of the menstrual cycle.

Now what if I wanted to wear a condom during her infertile period, just to be safe or to prevent STD’s? What about the pull out method? This is were you are grabbing at straws, you say that the purpose of a condom is that it is not to get pregnant and that having sex during her infertile period is not to get pregnant but they are different? The purpose and reason are both the same, the sperm will not fertilize the egg and you are both doing it for the exact same reason. You want to have sex and not get pregnant.

You know...I don't believe you have the right to question Catholic birth control...

😛

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
You know...I don't believe you have the right to question Catholic birth control...

😛

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Why not? I'm married to a Catholic and was married in a Catholic church and had to take all the Catholic classes, and to this day none (except for my wife) knows that I'm an Atheist. 😈

...a wolf in sheep's clothing....

I will contact your Diocese immediately!