Black Panther vs Superman

Originally posted by RealityWarper
No limits fallacy" doesn't exist,

No sir, they do indeed. A no limit fallacy exists to stop things like this:

Since Thor can stop time, he can pretty much wipe out the Celestial race on his own, seeing as how they don't have feats to prove otherwise. Not of this specific nature. For example.

But its implied that Skyfather level power is simply no good against them, and just because Thor could affect lower level characters with his time stop doesn't mean he can do it to outrageously higher level characters. It would be like saying he has no limit. Almost like a fallacy...

Originally posted by panthergod
Oh and BP wins here. Easily. And Abhi knows it.

Originally posted by Vanguard
[BTChalla has an eidetic memory. [/B]

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/darknight2k/media/bWVkaWFJZDo5MDc0ODU2MQ==/?ref=&hotlinkfix=1521626176604

Originally posted by Damborgson
No sir, they do indeed. A no limit fallacy exists to stop things like this:

Since Thor can stop time, he can pretty much wipe out the Celestial race on his own, seeing as how they don't have feats to prove otherwise. Not of this specific nature. For example.

But its implied that Skyfather level power is simply no good against them, and just because Thor could affect lower level characters with his time stop doesn't mean he can do it to outrageously higher level characters. It would be like saying he has no limit. Almost like a fallacy...

The power-level isn't a counter to the ability to stop time.

People are making either special pleading for the Celestials or a shitty argument for Thor because he has yet to prove that he can harm Celestials or attack people during his time-stop.

Either ways "no limit fallacy" doesn't exist.

That's just an excuse coming from poor debaters.

Originally posted by RealityWarper

People are making either special pleading for the Celestials or a shitty argument for Thor because he has yet to prove that he can harm Celestials

You just described the concept.

Originally posted by Deadline
Does he have to use kryptonite aren't there other ways of beating Superman?

Maybe not ... IF you discount the roughly 1 dozen ways Superman and other Kryptonians have actually been SHOWN being severely affected or taken down in the comics.

1. Sonics.
2. Hyper sonics.
3. Hyper-gravity devices.
4. Red-solar radiation or its equivalent.
5. Hypnosis.
6. Mind control.
7. Teleportation.
8. Hyper-shrinking.
9. Magic.
10. Beings of similar or greater power level fighting against him.
11. Power-draining.
12. Power-overload.

Here's one of the more rarely seen episodes of Superman being taken down by non-conventional means.

From what I can gather, Superman was first shrunk to microscopic size.
This all by itself would probably render him a non-threat, and, indeed, in this storyline, necessitated Batman going after his Kryptonian friend to save him.
(Pym particles, anyone?)

I note, however, some things that don't necessarily seem like they should logically follow JUST from being shrunk:

-- Time passes differently here. Actions that take a few moments normal scale take days, or weeks, or months, or even more time in this sort of "micro verse"
-- The ordeal largely robs Superman of his stored solar energy. Probably this is due to the extreme amount of time that passed for Superman relative to the "normal" DC world, and, indeed, the narration suggests that.
-- The ordeal largely robs Superman of his mind.

It's of interest to note that, BESIDES the inherent danger of too much time passing and Superman losing enough power to even sustain his life in this episode with absolutely nothing else being done to him,
there is ALSO the danger, at the other extreme, of Superman being overloaded with power and literally exploded so the villains of the story can collect energy from him.
Finally, there is the THIRD danger, once Batman puts his containment plan in to action, of Superman being taken out by parasites power DRAINING him back to normal, sane-of-mind levels.

Source: Superman/Batman #59
Circa: June 2009

Not sure if shrinking with Pym Particles ( Panthers methodology) cause time to pass differently, like as in DC.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not sure if shrinking with Pym Particles ( Panthers methodology) cause time to pass differently, like as in DC.

Neither am I, but, with Superman at roughly the size of a bacterium, I'm not sure it would make a difference.

Originally posted by Damborgson
No sir, they do indeed. A no limit fallacy exists to stop things like this:

Since Thor can stop time, he can pretty much wipe out the Celestial race on his own, seeing as how they don't have feats to prove otherwise. Not of this specific nature. For example.

But its implied that Skyfather level power is simply no good against them, and just because Thor could affect lower level characters with his time stop doesn't mean he can do it to outrageously higher level characters. It would be like saying he has no limit. Almost like a fallacy...

yeah lol at a no limits fallacu NOT existing. wtf? of course there is. special allowances need to be made (even in terms of logic) when debating comic books. a no limit fallacy is one of the checks and balances intended to keep discussion of purely fictional and often illogical characters and feats from getting too far out of hand. a seeming contradiction in itself. seriously. explains a lot though in regards to some of the sentry arguments i ignore. 👆

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Here's one of the more rarely seen episodes of Superman being taken down by non-conventional means.

From what I can gather, Superman was first shrunk to microscopic size.
This all by itself would probably render him a non-threat, and, indeed, in this storyline, necessitated Batman going after his Kryptonian friend to save him.
(Pym particles, anyone?)

I note, however, some things that don't necessarily seem like they should logically follow JUST from being shrunk:

-- Time passes differently here. Actions that take a few moments normal scale take days, or weeks, or months, or even more time in this sort of "micro verse"
-- The ordeal largely robs Superman of his stored solar energy. Probably this is due to the extreme amount of time that passed for Superman relative to the "normal" DC world, and, indeed, the narration suggests that.
-- The ordeal largely robs Superman of his mind.

It's of interest to note that, BESIDES the inherent danger of too much time passing and Superman losing enough power to even sustain his life in this episode with absolutely nothing else being done to him,
there is ALSO the danger, at the other extreme, of Superman being overloaded with power and literally exploded so the villains of the story can collect energy from him.
Finally, there is the THIRD danger, once Batman puts his containment plan in to action, of Superman being taken out by parasites power DRAINING him back to normal, sane-of-mind levels.

Source: Superman/Batman #59
Circa: June 2009

Just want to point out that this Superman was amped, SIGNIFICANTLY.

Potential Panther Solutions to Superman:

7. Teleportation.
4. Red solar radiation or its equivalent.

Source: Justice League of America #24, Volume 2
Circa: October 2008

Tags: Amazo GravityWell Alt Benes SuperDiana Antares

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Neither am I, but, with Superman at roughly the size of a bacterium, I'm not sure it would make a difference.

It would if his power levels are still the same. You noted several dangers, none of which would apply if Pym Particles don't affect the passage of time.

You've just made a lightspeed bacterium bullet that could fly through your head. DC has bacterium (Despotellis) who is deadly even at those size levels. The Atom is deadly at subatomic levels.

Interesting, and finally after more than 5 years I've found what one poster (you!) suggested as an answer in this pound for pound strength ranking thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=572374&pagenumber=6

"Despotellis" was easy enough to find once given that proper name:

Source: Green Lantern #18, Volume 4
Circa: May 2007

Not a bacterium but some kind of sentient virus.
Not sure if we're meant to understand a truly singular entity doing this, however.
Viruses do their damage by commandeering the human body and forcing it to essentially infinitely replicate the virus, usually causing the host cells to literally burst open from the overrun. Millions and millions of viruses in other words, not just one.

The best answer in relation to this thread, though, is that you and I thought of this on Day 1 of discussion. A man as bright as T'Challah given Wakandan tech and a full YEAR to prepare would reasonably employ a means of shrinkage that would NOT self-sabotage himself, if he indeed chose the shrinkage route.

The GL is Leezle Pon. Despotellis is from the Sinestro Corps.

And agreed that he wouldn't; I'm just pointing out that using Pym Particles may not be as effective as shrinking in DC, as it does not have time dilation effects (and thus, the draining of Supermans solar reseves).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I'm just pointing out that using Pym Particles may not be as effective as shrinking in DC, as it does not have time dilation effects (and thus, the draining of Supermans solar reseves).

I'm thinking this discussion may have the ability to affect current and future comic writers. Idea likely to be stolen:
People with the ability to shrink can potentially gain extra time to prep and think against opponents who are faster than they at "normal" world size.

Okay, that's it. Steal away, writers, but remember me if I'm ever in need of some royalty money!

Lol. It's a tactic we've mentioned before on the boards.

My spin on it was for a prison. It enables the super criminals to live their natural lives out in the space of a few days.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

My spin on it was for a prison. It enables the super criminals to live their natural lives out in the space of a few days.

That's ... pretty cold.

Interesting, but ... cold.

At any rate, since I'VE never seen much discussion on this particular sub-topic, I'll show the following, which is where I actually first heard the term Microverse, and remember still years and years later for Spider-Man riding a bullet:

Source: Spectacular Spider-Man Annual #10
Circa: 1990

Note from the above that Spider-Man is vulnerable to things that would be barely noticeable, particularly to sonics, which in this case is Harry merely whispering.
Note too that it is his roommate Harry, a man with no extraordinary science pedigree in the Marvel Universe, who begins the process that may, arguably, be what cures Spider-Man -- the understanding or employment of shrink and growth technology can be affected by relative laymen at Marvel, in other words.

Spider-Man's journey into the Microverse was apparently a 3- part story.
I saw this conclusion only recently and don't recall the 1st part of the arc at all.

It's worth noting that Spider-Man spends a great deal of time just trying to get his PERCEPTION in order; the world around him isn't even readily identifiable AS the world around him. Superman would have a hard time even RECOGNIZING T'Challa if Superman was shrunk down to the size Peter was here, let alone have any idea how to engage him.

Pay attention to the 8th scan in particular.
It's proof that time dilation occurs when people are shrunk really small in the Marvel Universe even as at DC.

Source: Web of Spider-Man Annual #6
Circa: 1990

That was back in 1990; subsequent depictions have not shown this, I believe.