Re: Re: ANH Obiwan and ROTJ Luke vs ROTS Dooku and Ventress
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You weren't serious when you made this, were you?
Well, I always thought Obi Wan was quite powerful as of ANH. I sure you already know my thoughts on Ventress from previous threads. Thought is would be a good match.
Re: Re: Re: ANH Obiwan and ROTJ Luke vs ROTS Dooku and Ventress
Originally posted by Kotor3I think it's been established that by ANH, Obi-Wan's virtual lack of combat training would drop him below the likes of his RotS self and the incredibly skilled an agile Ventress, never mind Dooku, whom he was never able to beat. RotJ Luke provides little in the way of lightsaber experience, his own being limited to Vader's style. Factor in Dooku's superior control of the Force and you get a win for him and Ventress.
Well, I always thought Obi Wan was quite powerful as of ANH. I sure you already know my thoughts on Ventress from previous threads. Thought is would be a good match.
Re: Re: Re: Re: ANH Obiwan and ROTJ Luke vs ROTS Dooku and Ventress
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I think it's been established that by ANH, Obi-Wan's virtual lack of combat training would drop him below the likes of his RotS self and the incredibly skilled an agile Ventress, never mind Dooku, whom he was never able to beat. RotJ Luke provides little in the way of lightsaber experience, his own being limited to Vader's style. Factor in Dooku's superior control of the Force and you get a win for him and Ventress.
The statement about Obi Wan is that from a source or just establish KMC opinions? I was always under the impression that Obi Wan power in the force increase by the time of ANH. Especially since Vader who is much more powerful in terms of force mastery than Anakin, still seem to have trouble taking Obi Wan, actually he never did. Obi Wan allowed himself to die.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ANH Obiwan and ROTJ Luke vs ROTS Dooku and Ventress
Originally posted by Kotor3Obi-Wan had spent time training in that Living Force thing, the whole Force ghost deal. But he didn't keep up his training over those 19 years neither in lightsaber combat or physical conditioning. Vader meanwhile had spent that same time as the second most powerful man in the galaxy, studying under Palpatine himself. Plus he's younger for however much that counts.
The statement about Obi Wan is that from a source or just establish KMC opinions? I was always under the impression that Obi Wan power in the force increase by the time of ANH. Especially since Vader who is much more powerful in terms of force mastery than Anakin, still seem to have trouble taking Obi Wan, actually he never did. Obi Wan allowed himself to die.
And I can't cite a source but if Vader's 80% of Palps and he had trouble taking ANH Kenobi---math doesn't make sense. He wasn't giving it his all in the ANH duel.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ANH Obiwan and ROTJ Luke vs ROTS Dooku and Ventress
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Obi-Wan had spent time training in that Living Force thing, the whole Force ghost deal. But he didn't keep up his training over those 19 years neither in lightsaber combat or physical conditioning. Vader meanwhile had spent that same time as the second most powerful man in the galaxy, studying under Palpatine himself. Plus he's younger for however much that counts.And I can't cite a source but if Vader's 80% of Palps and he had trouble taking ANH Kenobi---math doesn't make sense. He wasn't giving it his all in the ANH duel.
Lord Lucien, what exactly are you basing the statements that Obi Wan training was limited to the Living Force (or being one with the force)? Further what are you basing the statement that Vader was not giving it his all?
While that statement would make sense in the battle between Vader and Luke it does not make sense in the battle between Obi Wan and Vader. Unless you have some canon sources, I am going to have to base my interpretation on what the movie displayed and that is Obi Wan that allowed Vader to kill him; thus leaving me to believe that Obi Wan increase in power. Obi Wan’s statement to Vader “even if you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can imagine”.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ANH Obiwan and ROTJ Luke vs ROTS Dooku and Ventress
Originally posted by Kotor3
The statement about Obi Wan is that from a source or just establish KMC opinions? I was always under the impression that Obi Wan power in the force increase by the time of ANH. Especially since Vader who is much more powerful in terms of force mastery than Anakin, still seem to have trouble taking Obi Wan, actually he never did. Obi Wan allowed himself to die.
From Star Wars Death Star:"He still had some skill, his old Master did, but he was out of practice . Vader could feel it through the Force."
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ANH Obiwan and ROTJ Luke vs ROTS Dooku and Ventress
Thank you, Fan.
Originally posted by Kotor3The training Yoda told Obi-Wan about that he'd learn from Qui-Gon, who specialized in the Living Force ergo his ability to retain an identity. That training.
Lord Lucien, what exactly are you basing the statements that Obi Wan training was limited to the Living Force (or being one with the force)? Further what are you basing the statement that Vader was not giving it his all?While that statement would make sense in the battle between Vader and Luke it does not make sense in the battle between Obi Wan and Vader. Unless you have some canon sources, I am going to have to base my interpretation on what the movie displayed and that is Obi Wan that allowed Vader to kill him; thus leaving me to believe that Obi Wan increase in power. Obi Wan’s statement to Vader “even if you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can imagine”.
Fan I do not remember that quote from the movies but I will take your word on it. However I would like to know the source of that quote. Lucien I do not understand how you feel your statement answered my questions. I am fully aware of who learn what from who and the ability you were refering to.
The quote does prove one thing that I am not debating that Obi Wan is out of practice in saber combat which would make sense. My question is his increase power in the force. A better quote if you want to make an argument is the one from Vader were he stated to Obi Wan "Your powers are weak old man". Yet Obi Wan allowed himself to be killed. If Obi Wan is weaker than he was in ROTS, it makes his battle with Vader seem that much more ridculous. It still does not prove your assumption that Vader was holding back, especially since Vader did not hold back when Obi Wan allowed him to strike him. All I am saying is that your assumptions make sense if you are looking at the battle from that point of view and that is fine. I do not agree. I base my view off what I know happen in the movies and not the novel or anything else.
Originally posted by Kotor3I... don't think you understand a lot of what's said around here. That said I'm just not gonna bother with you.
Fan I do not remember that quote from the movies but I will take your word on it. However I would like to know the source of that quote. Lucien I do not understand how you feel your statement answered my questions. I am fully aware of who learn what from who and the ability you were refering to.The quote does prove one thing that I am not debating that Obi Wan is out of practice in saber combat which would make sense. My question is his increase power in the force. A better quote if you want to make an argument is the one from Vader were he stated to Obi Wan "Your powers are weak old man". Yet Obi Wan allowed himself to be killed. If Obi Wan is weaker than he was in ROTS, it makes his battle with Vader seem that much more ridculous. It still does not prove your assumption that Vader was holding back, especially since Vader did not hold back when Obi Wan allowed him to strike him. All I am saying is that your assumptions make sense if you are looking at the battle from that point of view and that is fine. I do not agree. I base my view off what I know happen in the movies and not the novel or anything else.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Fan I do not remember that quote from the movies but I will take your word on it. However I would like to know the source of that quote.
This is my source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Star_(novel.)
I don’t think it was mean. He is being true to KMC. There are people who have been on this forum for some time and are set in there ideas. If you don’t agree you somehow don’t understand what they are saying.
It is very simple he made a statement about Obi Wan and I asked him to prove it. Somehow the quote proves his statement correct and mine wrong. See, I did not conform to the current understanding of Obi Wan on KMC so I should be left alone. Classic KMC from certain people.
Originally posted by Kotor3Damn, I'm already turncoating on my own values.
I don’t think it was mean. He is being true to KMC. There are people who have been on this forum for some time and are set in there ideas. If you don’t agree you somehow don’t understand what they are saying.It is very simple he made a statement about Obi Wan and I asked him to prove it. Somehow the quote proves his statement correct and mine wrong. See, I did not conform to the current understanding of Obi Wan on KMC so I should be left alone. Classic KMC from certain people.
And thank you, we appreciate that there are some people who understand that when logic, reason and good 'ol common sense are applied, that a fact-based conclusion and precedent can be set. Maybe I was wrong about you.