Originally posted by jinzinMephisto was in a church at the time, and that was said to be a reason he was powerless in the Hulk feat.
Mephisto's been beaten by the proffesor Hulk in his own real with one punch, by Black Panther, and a couple other mid level heroes iirc. That's not really that impressive. 😬
Either way, Hulk and Ironclad (yes, Ironclad) were also said to have rocked a dimension as well.
And in what way did Shinnok and Raiden cause an Ice Age?
And implications of planet busting don't compare to Surfer easily crushing a planet in an attempt to teach Ravenous a leason. 😬
Isn't that basically what I'm trying to explain to you?
No i didnt get that from ur arguments
Uh... I get that... As I said, you can make the argument that Surfer's feats> Raiden until proven otherwise. But you can't make baseless assumptions that he's stronger, faster, more powerful etc etc when Raien's never capped out his limits. You can only argue "until proven otherwise".
No i dont think u do. Evrything i am arguing is based on the conditions of the forum. So me saying surfer is stronger faster more powerful etc is entirely correct within forum conditions. I dont care if raiden has never capped out his limits cuz within the context and conditions of this forum fight, surfer is far superior to him. (If u feel like u can add until proven otherwise)
Once again, it's still a baseless assumption seeing how we've never seen Raiden's limitations... If a character is strong enough to show he's class 100 without effort. It's possible/probable that he might be a 100+ ton lifter too. Without any known limitations it's hard to estimate WHAT a character is capible of. In that regard you can't keep making baseless claims about them. All you can argue is using until proven otherwise arguments... Which is fine.
U see, thats all we can really do with raiden: make assumptions. He doesnt have enough feats to really establish his powerlevel. The few feats he does have, certainly dont put him on surfers level. Further the powerlevel of raiden used on KMC wont be that which he might have but has never shown but will instead be based on what he has achieved. And regarding that surfer is far superior to him all round
He saw which way the guy was moving while starting his teleporting. pretty crappy teleport
Yes surfer saw his energy residue from his teleportation and used it to calculate the trajectory of where he would appear. It doesnt take away from the fact that it was teleportation and that surfer was able to react to it while off his board.
Based on your assumptions about his unknown limitations. no expression
No on the forum we take into account on panel evidence and not vague and unproven potential. If raiden has the feats to match surfer then he will be put on that level, if he doesnt then he simply wont. The fact is he doesnt. end of story
Mephisto's been beaten by the proffesor Hulk in his own real with one punch, by Black Panther, and a couple other mid level heroes iirc. That's not really that impressive. erm I'm not sure how deactivating all the machines on earth means he's more powerful than raiden. confused though the black hole feat is impressive.
Scans and context of the professor hulk and black panther incident? Cuz im almost sure that it had to do with mephisto not really fighting them but instead using trying to put them in some scheme for their souls. And the deactivating all earths machinery and is an example of global matter manipulation. He basically took away all the energy from earth as well as manipulated the planets photons in order to create perpatual darkness.
But that's not how you represented your argument. You just flat out stated that he was faster, stronger, etc etc.. When no evidence really exists to make that concrete. He's faster by comparitive feats, stronger because of his feats of strength. But it's not because of Raiden's known limitations.
I didnt know i needed to mention it but just to make it clear my argument was made in regards to the KMC environment. Which in essence is based on their cocmparative feats. I have no desire to get into discussions about raidens potential which has never been shown.
You should care because it DOES matter. you can't conclusively state a winner of the fight if you don't understand their limitations, you can quage a speculatory one but that's really all you can do. I'll accept the fact that you don't think Raiden can win based on his lack of feats. But nothing about your first statement on the matter is conclusive... at all.
Actually on KMC it DOESNT matter at all. I can certainly conclusively state a winner here based on his feats. If Raiden is put in fights on KMC all we can do is base his power level off the feats he has accomplished. As i said my first statement on the matter was based on raidens accomplished feats and hence it is very valid on KMC.
Originally posted by jinzin
How the hell is it fanboyism to state facts?The way he was arguing was engaged in a logical fallacy. You can't make baseless statements about such matters when there's nothing conclusive to support them.
Actually i wasnt engaged in any sort of fallacy at all. It was perfectly logical and infact the ONLY way t determine a winner in a forum match. Fallacious reasoning would be having Raiden involved in matches and basing his entire performance in said match off abilities he has not displayed. Heck the situation can be related to multiple other characters. Neither the hulk nor superman nor thor have really ever shown a limit to what they are able to lift. However in determining the strongest of the three on KMC, we would use the feats they had actually performed. Hence a statement such as " Superman is the strongest out of the three" or "hulk is the strongest out of the three" would be perfectly acceptable as long as it is supported by the feats they have accomplished.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Actually i wasnt engaged in any sort of fallacy at all. It was perfectly logical and infact the ONLY way t determine a winner in a forum match. Fallacious reasoning would be having Raiden involved in matches and basing his entire performance in said match off abilities he has not displayed. Heck the situation can be related to multiple other characters. Neither the hulk nor superman nor thor have really ever shown a limit to what they are able to lift. However in determining the strongest of the three on KMC, we would use the feats they had actually performed. Hence a statement such as " Superman is the strongest out of the three" or "hulk is the strongest out of the three" would be perfectly acceptable as long as it is supported by the feats they have accomplished.
You need to bone up on fallacies.
Argumentum ad ignorantiam
Argumentum ad logicam
and Argumentum ad nauseam are all part of what you've been spewing here.
In any case, I don't really feel like continuing to rail this into the dirt as I actually agree that Surfer wins. The point is simply that you can't determine a winner based on Surfer being "stronger faster, more powerful"... etc etc... because that's not true. He has the better feats. But Raiden doesn't really have feats much less ones that are clear which is why it's such an open ended question.
When it comes to what he does have: Planet busting and demension ripping are certainly feats that would put Raiden within the tier range of SS considering how easily he's described as doing them. Does SS have better feats than that? Sure, but does that mean Raiden couldn't do something of SS level? No because we've never seen his limit.... However, since negative's can't be proven I understand and agree with your sentiment, just not the way you're representing it. I thought I was clearer about this in my other post but I can see how you missed it. I read the other post and you're practically stating what I'm trying to communicate to you in the first place (lol) so I won't continue to pester you about this but I don't agree that you can state a conclusive winner between these two as much as you can an argueable one.
Originally posted by I'm BranRipped through demensional barriors?
Mephisto was in a church at the time, and that was said to be a reason he was powerless in the Hulk feat.
BP depowered him through prep in Wakanda.
He hasn't really. I mean, off the top of my head, Adam Warlock due to him absorbing souls in the millions of souls place of Meph, and Thor by being a terrible plot device.Either way, Hulk and Ironclad (yes, Ironclad) were also said to have rocked a dimension as well.
And in what way did Shinnok and Raiden cause an Ice Age?
And implications of planet busting don't compare to Surfer easily crushing a planet in an attempt to teach Ravenous a leason. 😬
Originally posted by jinzin
"Actually" you WERE/ARE. 😐You need to bone up on fallacies.
Argumentum ad ignorantiam
Argumentum ad logicam
and Argumentum ad nauseam are all part of what you've been spewing here.In any case, I don't really feel like continuing to rail this into the dirt as I actually agree that Surfer wins. The point is simply that you can't determine a winner based on Surfer being "stronger faster, more powerful"... etc etc... because that's not true. He has the better feats. But Raiden doesn't really have feats much less ones that are clear which is why it's such an open ended question.
When it comes to what he does have: Planet busting and demension ripping are certainly feats that would put Raiden within the tier range of SS considering how easily he's described as doing them. Does SS have better feats than that? Sure, but does that mean Raiden couldn't do something of SS level? No because we've never seen his limit.... However, since negative's can't be proven I understand and agree with your sentiment, just not the way you're representing it. I thought I was clearer about this in my other post but I can see how you missed it. I read the other post and you're practically stating what I'm trying to communicate to you in the first place (lol) so I won't continue to pester you about this but I don't agree that you can state a conclusive winner between these two as much as you can an argueable one.
I know perfectly well logical fallacies are and within the context of how power levels are determined on KMC, im my argument isnt falling into any at all. You keep saying that i cant conclusively state that surfer is faster, stronger, more powerful etc. The thing is that within the context of battle in this forum i actually can because feats are the supreme evidence used. Within the KMC environment and context, saying that surfer is faster stronger and more powerful than raiden is acceptable because its underlying meaning is that surfer has superior feats to raiden in all these departments. Go to KMCs tier system and u will see that powerlevels are determined to some extent thru powersets but mostly thru the characters accomplsihed feats.
Maybe i shud put it like this, A conclusive winner in actuality cant be decided between raiden and SS because raidens limits havent been tested as u said. However a conclusive KMC winner can be determined because that would be determined by the characters respective feats.