god's divine will or man's free will? (other ramblings included)

Originally posted by Tourist
see, this is one of the things i have a problem with. back when i lived in texas i dated a chick who's dad was both verbally and physically abusive to both her and the rest of her family. but he went to church every sunday. now anyone that has met him wouldn't have much of an issue declaring that i was vastly superior in character than him and yet he gets to go to heaven when he dies and i burn in hell? how is it fair that a good hearted guy is tortured for all eternity while an abusive prick receives a get out of jail free card every week just because he showed up to a building for a few hours and said "I'm sorry"?

Did your high moral caliber lead you to report him to the cops?

Why does your own belief system say you're going to hell? What on Earth would posses you to believe that? For God's sake man people have spent their entire lives developing completely batshit insane philosophies to rationalize their own actions and you can't even go out and find one where you don't end up in hell? Go be an Objectivist (you can't do anything wrong to begin with) or an atheist (no hell to worry about) or an humanist (he goes to hell you get puffy clouds) or a join a progressive Christian sect (he doesn't get out of anything for saying sorry).

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Calvanists believed (believe?) some fairly absurd thing about fate. Uncommon? Insane? Probably, but people did believe them

Predestination- you were chosen as one of the elect who would go into heaven from the dawn of time. No actions anyone commits can earn them or cost them entry.

Originally posted by Tourist
i don't mind taking a little berating when its justified. i have no misconceptions that i know any more than you or sym. in fact that's pretty much the reason i'm asking these questions. it very well may be a bi-product of where i grew up and the religious institutions that were present at the time. my exposure to organized religion has been rather dissapointing (due to individuals who react almost violently to those who do not believe as they do or others that just blindly follow a belief structure that they don't really understand but will defend it until their dying breath). as a result i don't expect much from most religious people and have never really felt the need to expand my knowledge beyond what currently inspires the questions i have because honestly i haven't met anyone that has necessitated such a course of action. usually the response i receive is "er.................well..............I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG. THE BIBLE SAYS SO!!!!!!!!".

trust me, there are just as many self righteous super christians with little more information concerning their religion than what could be contained on a flyer as there are know-it-all super atheist theologians.

Not my fault your American I'm afraid.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Predestination- you were chosen as one of the elect who would go into heaven from the dawn of time. No actions anyone commits can earn them or cost them entry.

Yeah but if you were rich it meant people knew you were going to heaven and if you were poor it meant your were going to hell but if you were rich and suddenly became poor it was proof that you actually were going to hell after all (well not exactly like that but you get the idea). At least that was what they taught us about them in high school. They also said the Earth revolved around the sun and people evolved from monkeys 😉

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yeah but if you were rich it meant people knew you were going to heaven and if you were poor it meant your were going to hell but if you were rich and suddenly became poor it was proof that you actually were going to hell after all (well not exactly like that but you get the idea). At least that was what they taught us about them in high school. They also said the Earth revolved around the sun and people evolved from monkeys 😉

Your bit about rich people seems pretty un-Calvinistic to me...

I say that as a Scot, a man who's nation was transformed by Calvin's teachings. Though maybe I am mistaken...the bit about evolution and the earth-sun seems irrelevant...

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Did your high moral caliber lead you to report him to the cops?

Why does your own belief system say you're going to hell? What on Earth would posses you to believe that? For God's sake man people have spent their entire lives developing completely batshit insane philosophies to rationalize their own actions and you can't even go out and find one where you don't end up in hell? Go be an Objectivist (you can't do anything wrong to begin with) or an atheist (no hell to worry about) or an humanist (he goes to hell you get puffy clouds) or a join a progressive Christian sect (he doesn't get out of anything for saying sorry).

actually yes i did. however the family wasn't willing to admit to such abuse and without anyone to officially press charges there isn't much the cops can do (at least this was the explanation i was given).

my personal belief system doesn't allow for the concept of hell to be real. i don't believe in a higher power therefore there is no hell as a result (i am an atheist in case you missed it). what i'm questioning is how can such an apparently large portion of at least the american populous believe that one individual will suffer for eternity while another gets to go to heaven just based on their beliefs and not their character? is this just in the states or is this common throughout the rest of the world? if so, what the hell is wrong with these people?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Predestination- you were chosen as one of the elect who would go into heaven from the dawn of time. No actions anyone commits can earn them or cost them entry.

wow...just wow.

edit - trying to reign in the number of periods used for a pause. =D

There is nothing wrong with believing that people go to hell. It is the great cosmic order of things- it creates context for existence and is the basis for law and order in many cultures. Including historically our own.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
There is nothing wrong with believing that people go to hell. It is the great cosmic order of things- it creates context for existence and is the basis for law and order in many cultures. Including historically our own.

ok, maybe i wasn't clear in my point. forgive me, i'm currently running on 3 hours of sleep over the past 2 days. =/

i don't have a problem with the idea of hell itself. though if there is a hell i think it should be reserved for the truly wicked (hilter comes to mind) and not just a catchall for those who chose the wrong belief in the religion lottery.

Originally posted by Tourist
ok, maybe i wasn't clear in my point. forgive me, i'm currently running on 3 hours of sleep over the past 2 days. =/

i don't have a problem with the idea of hell itself. though if there is a hell i think it should be reserved for the truly wicked (hilter comes to mind) and not just a catchall for those who chose the wrong belief in the religion lottery.

Well, they made the choice didn't they. Besides some people who are good but not Christian go to heaven ofcourse and many bad people who are Christian go to hell.

Also, your condemnation or salvation is judged on your merits alone. You cannot stand before God and say, "OK I got some things wrong...but I wasn't as bad as Hitler..." Let's face it, your never gonna be in the position Hitler was in (I assume) so you never know how you might have acted etc if you were he.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Your bit about rich people seems pretty un-Calvinistic to me...

It was a while back.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I say that as a Scot, a man who's nation was transformed by Calvin's teachings. Though maybe I am mistaken...the bit about evolution and the earth-sun seems irrelevant...

T'was a joke.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It was a while back.

T'was a joke.

Nah...don't get it 😂

Originally posted by Tourist
i don't have a problem with the idea of hell itself. though if there is a hell i think it should be reserved for the truly wicked (hilter comes to mind) and not just a catchall for those who chose the wrong belief in the religion lottery.

Hell is very subjective these days. Some Xians believe in the age old "Lake of Fire", whereas some Xians I've met actually believe that Hell is merely an eternity of being without God/Jesus' presence, which, they say, will be punishment enough. Sounds like everyday Earth life to me.

Hell is humbug.
Used to keep simpletons in mind a long,long, time ago.
Heaven and Hell is here and now I think.
To worry what's going to happen to me after this life is gone seems a little ridiculous.

Sorry to say this but the Bible and all the characters within are all works of fiction. All resemblance to events or people within the Bible are purely coincidentally and should not be taken literally.

Man writes Bible, creates God. Other men believe in Bible out of fear of God. Man works out that another man created God. Everything works out in the end.

Originally posted by MilitantDog
Sorry to say this but the Bible and all the characters within are all works of fiction. All resemblance to events or people within the Bible are purely coincidentally and should not be taken literally.

Man writes Bible, creates God. Other men believe in Bible out of fear of God. Man works out that another man created God. Everything works out in the end.

You keep saying this and we get the message, you're not the first 15 year old super-atheist to come along and fight the crusade against the ignorant and stupid theists...

Sadly, you're just regurgitating arguments from your appointed leaders i.e. Hitchens and Dawkins but very very poorly. Ergo, we don't care what you have to say and you will probably leave the forums within a week or two when you realise that what you believe to be unassailable logic is not actually all that unassailable at all- indeed chances are you will leave less an atheist and the forum members will stay exactly what they were. Your impact here being totally negligible because you just run around saying things we all ready know that other people have said.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
You keep saying this and we get the message, you're not the first 15 year old super-atheist to come along and fight the crusade against the ignorant and stupid theists...

Sadly, you're just regurgitating arguments from your appointed leaders i.e. Hitchens and Dawkins but very very poorly. Ergo, we don't care what you have to say and you will probably leave the forums within a week or two when you realise that what you believe to be unassailable logic is not actually all that unassailable at all- indeed chances are you will leave less an atheist and the forum members will stay exactly what they were. Your impact here being totally negligible because you just run around saying things we all ready know that other people have said.

Well done you assumptions have made you look more of an arse than I thought you were already.

I'm actually 29, married and served 10 years in the RAF. I have travelled the world and seen the wonders that Religion has brought to the world (war, hatred, rampant sexual disease to name a few).

I'm not saying you are ignorant or stupid. Just lacking in self worth and slightly misguided.

"Sadly, you're just regurgitating arguments from your appointed leaders i.e. Hitchens and Dawkins but very very poorly. Ergo, we don't care what you have to say and you will probably leave the forums within a week or two when you realise that what you believe to be unassailable logic is not actually all that unassailable at all- indeed chances are you will leave less an atheist and the forum members will stay exactly what they were. Your impact here being totally negligible because you just run around saying things we all ready know that other people have said"

Everything you have just said is exactly how I feel about you. You spout constantly about Jesus this, God that, the Bible says this. You have in fact criticised yourself without knowing it.

Oh and chances are that many of the hard core bible botherers on these threads are just smart arses trolling for a response from the poor, poor fools who will rise to them like you.

Oh and your assumption that I am an atheist is also wrong. I follow no such path.

Originally posted by MilitantDog
I'm actually 29, married and served 10 years in the RAF. I have travelled the world and seen the wonders that Religion has brought to the world (war, hatred, rampant sexual disease to name a few).

Religion didn't create war or hatred or sexual disease.

Originally posted by MilitantDog
Well done you assumptions have made you look more of an arse than I thought you were already.

I'm actually 29, married and served 10 years in the RAF. I have travelled the world and seen the wonders that Religion has brought to the world (war, hatred, rampant sexual disease to name a few).

I'm not saying you are ignorant or stupid. Just lacking in self worth and slightly misguided.

"Sadly, you're just regurgitating arguments from your appointed leaders i.e. Hitchens and Dawkins but very very poorly. Ergo, we don't care what you have to say and you will probably leave the forums within a week or two when you realise that what you believe to be unassailable logic is not actually all that unassailable at all- indeed chances are you will leave less an atheist and the forum members will stay exactly what they were. [B]Your impact here being totally negligible because you just run around saying things we all ready know that other people have said"

Everything you have just said is exactly how I feel about you. You spout constantly about Jesus this, God that, the Bible says this. You have in fact criticised yourself without knowing it.

Oh and chances are that many of the hard core bible botherers on these threads are just smart arses trolling for a response from the poor, poor fools who will rise to them like you.

Oh and your assumption that I am an atheist is also wrong. I follow no such path. [/B]

Wow...you clearly know very little about me- if you did you would know that your claims are totally false- not only that your argument doesn't follow.

If I am accusing you of regurgitating other peoples arguments- which you confess to doing- that can not be compared to someone talking about Jesus the Bible etc often in a RELIGION FORUM though let's face it, I never go about saying "Bible says this, Jesus says that" if it is not in a conversation about the Bible or Christianity. So your response was poor.

Regurgitating others arguments and only discussing one topic (which I do not do) is not the same thing.

You are a petulant child who has been scolded, you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being brainwashed or sweep them into a stereotype of fanatical Christians- you even call the atheists who disagree with you mad evangelicals!

Your tactics are pitiful, your arguments are flawed.

However, perhaps it is just a bad start. We could always have a new beginning and you could try and be more reasonable with your debates- rather than making grand sounding statements which are essentially paraphrases from the God Delusion.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Religion didn't create war or hatred or sexual disease.

Religion may not have started those things, but it has a very heavy hand in propagating them.