In-Universe v Out-of-Universe. Darth Vader v Luke Skywalker.

Very interesting. Vader looks a terrible and so does Luke. They both look hopeless, and I am not sure if anyone denies that. If some do, then it is trivial - the PT era shows a better display of swordsmanship.

Now, here is the question:

Is the real reason (tech) good enough to play nice with the In-universe reason (vader was a cyborg)?

Discuss.

LOL hopeless? Read NJO or read more of the EU about vader and THEN tell me he is hopeless.

Originally posted by DorianYates
LOL hopeless? Read NJO or read more of the EU about vader and THEN tell me he is hopeless.

I am aware that Vader is not hopeless. My understanding is that he is a very good swordsman. But the guy looks hopeless in the movies for reasons that have little to do with the actual story.

I was hoping to get a little chat going on In-Universal v Real life reconciliation.

What do you mean? It is explained out-of-universe, as well as in-universe, that Vader's status as a cyborg has limited his physical capability and hampered his skill, though his skill is still considerable and his power immense.

Originally posted by Captain REX
What do you mean? It is explained out-of-universe, as well as in-universe, that Vader's status as a cyborg has limited his physical capability and hampered his skill, though his skill is still considerable and his power immense.

Not to mention that Luke is far from being the most skilled opponent Vader has faced, and he wasn't trying to kill him in either movie. Plus Obiwan was aged pretty badly between the PT and OT, I wonder if Vader was toying with him ANH.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Not to mention that Luke is far from being the most skilled opponent Vader has faced, and he wasn't trying to kill him in either movie. Plus Obiwan was aged pretty badly between the PT and OT, I wonder if Vader was toying with him ANH.

I don't think vader toyed with obi wan becuase some guide said he was taking him seriously from the start, but just look at where vader and obi wan were fighting, i don't think there is much room for acrobatic stunts and flashy moves.

Originally posted by Happy_Sith
I am aware that Vader is not hopeless. My understanding is that he is a very good swordsman. But the guy looks hopeless in the movies for reasons that have little to do with the actual story.

I was hoping to get a little chat going on In-Universal v Real life reconciliation.

Originally posted by Captain REX
What do you mean? It is explained out-of-universe, as well as in-universe, that Vader's status as a cyborg has limited his physical capability and hampered his skill, though his skill is still considerable and his power immense.

Right, and this is a horrid excuse for an explanation.

Look at General Grievous.

Originally posted by Happy_Sith
Right, and this is a horrid excuse for an explanation.

Look at General Grievous.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Grievous wasn't a Force-sensitive. Vader's psyche was damaged by what happened at Mustafar and by the news of Padme's death. Grievous had his brain and vital organs encased in a robotic suit specifically designed for fighting Jedi, he even had Sifo-Dyas blood pumped into him.

This is a bit of what I want.

I hate having to put something into a 'mind over matter' category, but for the GFFA it could work. I am not going to have him get nuerosurgery to correct this when he does not have all of his limbs.

But why doesn't he have all of his limbs? Why didn't Palpatine just clone parts for him and do away with that silly suit?

Was it Sidious' intention to have him crippled? I thought that The Force Unleashed material implied Sidious being genuinely frustrated with having a crippled apprentice, but would he sooner give him better medical treatment and risk being overthrown directly by a guy with so much potential? And speaking of potential, is his physiology altered after Mustafar?

These are the sort of issues I want closure on.

Furthermore, Grievous's injuries were planned. Palpatine had to cobble some shit together on the fly to save Vader.

Vader: Aww damn! This hurts! GOD!

Palps: WTF? What the hell is this bullshit? This is not part of my badass plan! You moron.

Vader: He burned my dick off man!

Palps: I don't give a ****, now I'll have to come up with some shit on the fly to save your fried ass.

*rolls d20 to see if he can make the "Come up with shit on the fly DC"

Palps: Hmm I almost missed the DC, you will live but your going to be one miserable ****! Serves you right, this suit is going to drain my checking account and probably savings.

I think Palpatine wanted Vader to know his place. Palpatine could have let him die, but instead he didn't because he knew he could rebuild him. I have often thought why they just didn't clone parts for him, but being confined to body armor that keeps you alive is more degrading. Anakin who became Vader truly became Palpatine's slave.

Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader does say that Vader's suit is not the best quality it could be. After his apprentice becomes crippled, Palpatine wanted to keep him in his place until someone more powerful came along.

Also, the explanation that Vader is a crippled cyborg is NOT a horrid excuse. It is what Lucas himself stands by, and so must be accepted as far as canon goes as the reason Vader isn't speedy in-universe.

Grievous is only a brain, eyes, and sack of organs, honestly. Vader is missing limbs and suffering from severe burns externally and internally.

Yes, Rex, I have read Dark Lord. I am thinking along the lines of Dark Lord these days. I think it does not play nice with Palpatine's willingness to replace him with Luke or TFU material. I'll let others say more on the latter because I have not read the book.

As to the second point, I am aware of Lucas' stance. It is a good motivator to start these type of threads. I can't be the only one scratching my head.