Originally posted by Galan007
Because by the end of 'Reveations' Spectre's power problem seemed to be fixed.
Originally posted by quanchi112'No weight' what in the heckfire are you talking about?
Exactly and the fact is was off panel means it carries no weight with it whatsoever.
Superman enters a room and finds Mandrakk standing next to a couple bodies (Spectre/Radiant) - and nothing else. Mandrakk then goes on to talk about how he beat them.
Assuming anything else happened beside what the illustrations/text tell us, is absurd.
Originally posted by Galan007We don't know the circumstances for how they were defeated. Context is everything. Especially when considering how ineffective Spectre was during fc. Knowing we didn't see the actual fight leads me to believe he got screwed again. Either way off panel means we just don't know what happened.
'No weight' what in the heckfire are you talking about?Superman enters a room and finds Mandrakk standing next to a couple bodies (Spectre/Radiant) - and nothing else. Mandrakk then goes on to talk about how he beat them.
Assuming anything else happened beside what the illustrations/text tell us, is absurd.
Originally posted by EnyalusThe characters Spectre was unable to affect were all tied to the ALE - they all had that in common. To my knowledge, Mandrakk was not linked to the ALE in any way/shape/form. That said, there's no reason whatsoever to assume he was immune to Spectre's wrath (especially when nothing of the sort was ever stated, or even alluded to.)
He simply embraced the true...Spectreforce, or whatever you'd like to call it. He was no longer using the power in a limited, two dimensional way. That had nothing to do with his troubles against Libra and others. Like you pointed out, that was God not wanting him to interfere. I realize Mandrakk is the 'ultimate threat' so the point can be made, 'Why would God hold him back from destroying Mandrakk?' But...why would he do so against Cain/Savage or Libra? I mean, neither make any sense.
Originally posted by EnyalusCain was not protected by the ALE. Spectre was not rendered ineffectual against Cain for that reason. Cain was protected by his possession of the Spear of Destiny. Once he was relieved of it, Spectre could cast his judgment upon him.
He simply embraced the true...Spectreforce, or whatever you'd like to call it. He was no longer using the power in a limited, two dimensional way. That had nothing to do with his troubles against Libra and others. Like you pointed out, that was God not wanting him to interfere. I realize Mandrakk is the 'ultimate threat' so the point can be made, 'Why would God hold him back from destroying Mandrakk?' But...why would he do so against Cain/Savage or Libra? I mean, neither make any sense.
Galan007: Having clarified the above, what do you think of the following:
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If I'm not mistaken, Radiant and Spectre are referring to all the people who were enslaved by the ALE that Spectre had spread. But that doesn't explain why Libra was protected, since, like Vandal Savage, he willingly subscribed to the ALE. Thoughts?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Cain was not protected by the ALE. Spectre was not rendered ineffectual against Cain for that reason. Cain was protected by his possession of the Spear of Destiny. Once he was relieved of it, Spectre could cast his judgment upon him.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0The Spear, and the ALE are linked:
Cain was not protected by the ALE. Spectre was not rendered ineffectual against Cain for that reason. Cain was protected by his possession of the Spear of Destiny. Once he was relieved of it, Spectre could cast his judgment upon him.Galan007: Having clarified the above, what do you think of the following:
Which takes me back to my last post:
Originally posted by Galan007
The characters Spectre was unable to affect were all tied to the ALE - they all had that in common. To my knowledge, Mandrakk was not linked to the ALE in any way/shape/form. That said, there's no reason whatsoever to assume he was immune to Spectre's wrath (especially when nothing of the sort was ever stated, or even alluded to.)
Originally posted by Galan007[/B][/QUOTE]They were linked only circumstantially. I know you don't actually think the Spear of Destiny is a manifestation of the ALE or that it even has a close connection with the ALE. They are just linked because they are part of the same situation prophesized by the Crime Bible.
The Spear, and the ALE are linked:Which takes me back to my last post:[QUOTE=11762736]Originally posted by Galan007
[B]The characters Spectre was unable to affect were all tied to the ALE - they all had that in common. To my knowledge, Mandrakk was not linked to the ALE in any way/shape/form. That said, there's no reason whatsoever to assume he was immune to Spectre's wrath (especially when nothing of the sort was ever stated, or even alluded to.)
Even if you were to rely on some deep linkage between the Spear and ALE, then if ALE made you immune to Spectre (before he reasserts his true power), then why would Cain even need the Spear of Destiny in the first place?
Again, by the end of Final Crisis: Revelations, Spectre's statements about being forbidden are actually directed towards the innocent folks who were enslaved by the ALE. And he could assert his power against Cain because he willingly chose ALE, whereas beforehand he was protected by the Spear. However, earlier on, Libra was not protected by the Spear and willingly chose ALE and was still immune to Spectre's power. How?
Originally posted by AllanklesHere he tries to use his esoteric powers to control them. Radiant does the same and they realize that vengeance and mercy have no power over anti-life.
Here Montoya and Radiant tell him not to kill an ALE victim.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I never said the Spear was a manifestation of the ALE, I said they were linked (which is true.)
They were linked only circumstantially. I know you don't actually think the Spear of Destiny is a manifestation of the ALE or that it even has a close connection with the ALE. They are just linked because they are part of the same situation prophesized by the Crime Bible.
Faceless specifically stated that the reason Spectre could not control the Spear, was the same reason he could not control the mob (obviously referring to the ALE.)
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Because the Spear has the power to kill Spectre. Vandal/Cain alone, does not.
Even if you were to rely on some deep linkage between the Spear and ALE, then if ALE made you immune to Spectre (before he reasserts his true power), then why would Cain even need the Spear of Destiny in the first place?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Willingly accepting the ALE, instead of unwillingly doing so, wouldn't mean much. Either way you are still tainted by anti-life (which Spectre was unable to affect.)
However, earlier on, Libra was not protected by the Spear and willingly chose ALE and was still immune to Spectre's power. How?
^ Bah. Final Crisis: Revelations was all over the place. If you read this scan more carefully, Montoya hypothesizes that it is the Spear which prevents Spectre and Radiant from doing anything, "[T]he Spear stayed behind. I thought that was your fault, that you'd left it on purpose, but now I'm thinking that's not what happened... it stayed because you couldnt' affect it, the same way you couldn't affect Captain Sawyer and Driver and Stacy... the same way you can't affect the mob outside."
That statement could be logically read to suggest that it's the Order of the Stone's possession of the Spear that prevented Spectre's power form working on them. Which makes sense, considering how important the Spear was to everyone involved. Spectre's ineffectuality beforehand had nothing to do with ALE. It was the Spear.
It was Radiant's power of mercy that was ineffectual against the ALE. Because without free will, mercy is meaningless. That is why afterwards, Radiant could bestow mercy on them, which precluded Spectre judging them. However, Radiant didn't bestow mercy on Cain, because he willingly served under the ALE. Thus, Spectre could judge him.
If the above is true, then it doesn't make sense why Spectre couldn't affect Libra. As Allankles argues, Radiant's pleas in the following scan suggest that Spectre could still kill people infected by ALE:
But because the Order of the Stone hadn't retrieved the Spear of Destiny yet... Libra had neither the benefit of the Spear, nor the benefit of Radiant's mercy. So how was he immune? Libra may not have been affected simply because God didn't want Spectre to hurt him, not because of his connection to the ALE.
If that's the case, and ALE is not ultimately important to Spectre-immunity, then maybe God didn't want Spectre to judge Mandrakk. Which I think is Enyalus' point. Mandrakk > Spectre/Radiant is a non-feat if God didn't want them to. Besides, if God wanted them to, who could deny God's will? Isn't that the argument for every Presence-backed Spectre fan? That if God wills it, Spectre accomplishes it? Are we suggesting that Mandrakk > Presence?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I don't see how it can be read as such. The mob was, afterall, chanting the ALE just prior to that scan (Faceless nearly became infected by it) - that's why they teleported away.
^ Bah. Final Crisis: Revelations was all over the place. If you read this scan more carefully, Montoya hypothesizes that it is the Spear which prevents Spectre and Radiant from doing anything, "[T]he Spear stayed behind. I thought that was your fault, that you'd left it on purpose, but now I'm thinking that's not what happened... it stayed because you couldnt' affect it, the same way you couldn't affect Captain Sawyer and Driver and Stacy... the same way you can't affect the mob outside."That statement could be logically read to suggest that it's the Order of the Stone's possession of the Spear that prevented Spectre's power form working on them.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I see what you guys are saying. However, I still think more things point to Spectre being unable to affect the aforementioned characters, due to the ALE, than not.
If that's the case, and ALE is not ultimately important to Spectre-immunity, then maybe God didn't want Spectre to judge Mandrakk. Which I think is Enyalus' point. Mandrakk > Spectre/Radiant is a non-feat if God didn't want them to. Besides, if God wanted them to, who could deny God's will? Isn't that the argument for every Presence-backed Spectre fan? That if God wills it, Spectre accomplishes it? Are we suggesting that Mandrakk > Presence?
I have no problem with you disagreeing, though. 🙂
^ Meh. I'm not ready to believe that either ALE or Mandrakk are above the influence of a Spectre who's got his head on straight. I'm more inclined to believe they once again jobbed because God threw some technicality at them:
Presence: "Nonono, Spectre. You're not going to be the plot device to ultimately defeat Mandrakk this time around. Grant insisted that we had to use some obscure pre-Crisis "Miracle Something-something" as the plot device that wins the day. So go get your a$$ kicked like you did against Libra."
Spectre: "Gawd! You always do this to me! Fine, whatever! ......... jerk."
