So Bastila Shan had a child....

Started by Lightsnake4 pages
Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Which shouldn't matter about that, because his ship wasn't able to be found until Gav betrayed him. Sadow was hiding behind some random red star:

So obviously he had nothing to fear if they couldn't find him. Gav's betrayal turned the tide against him, breaking his concentration and revealing his fleet to Teta and the Republic.


This also depends on no Jedi being capable of locating the one in charge of the assault mentally with simple battle meditation. This plan is only workable if none of his targets don't have a navy of their own-which they don't until the plot demands it. If Odan-Ur's usefulness wasn't the level of a half-dead padawan, one would assume he would direct his battle meditation against his enemy, which would, by proxy, bring it into conflict with Sadow's, immediately locating them. This might not even be necessary as Force Users can sense where battle meditation stems from, as when Kopecz immediately senses the Jedi Master using BM against the Sith forces in Path of Destruction and heads there to kill her. Rather precise locating there.
So, we chalk up a perfect plan to Naga that's viable only because bad writing prevents any Jedi from realizing where their enemy is and immediately informing Empress Teta's whose fleet has mysteriously vanished.


Sadow is recognizably talented with a lot of different alchemy and technology which isn't present in the battle of Coruscant depicted in the webcomics, which is entirely my point. As Barringer wisely points out, this Sith Empire is if anything more like Revan's than the ancient Sith. You mock Sadow's efforts, but his illusions and Massassi warriors nearly conquered both planets:

Nearly isn't good enough. An intelligent conqueror doesn't put all his eggs in one basket. When your forces, on their own, are not good enough to take a single planet, defended by a grand total of four Jedi without what relies on way too many things going wrong?
In fact, the fact they weren't able to take Cinnagar alone is an embarrassment...Jori Daragon was about the only person with a lightsaber there.

Which brings us to the third point - Gav. Gav was innocent, trusting, potentially powerful, and reliable. None of the things the other Sith Lords were to Sadow or each other. While trusting in Gav was his downfall, it seemed from his perspective the only logical thing to do according to his battle plan. Gav was competent up until things became personal, and then he switched sides. But had that not occurred, he could have overseen the entire victory, rationalized it as necessary and not some greedy venture for himself (Like another Sith Lord would) and he'd still recognize Sadow as being his superior.

Nonsense. The Sith Lords shown are, to a fault, loyal to the Dark Lord of the Sith. Ludo's defiance extends to refusing to take part in the assault. He did not challenge Naga, when he has shown himself capable of fighting him on even terms. He did not contemplate overthrowing Naga until he learned Naga had betrayed the entire Empire and his co-conspirators don't seem to go along with the plan until they learn this as well.
The other Sith Lords immediately throw their lot in behind Sadow and nothing indicates they had treachery on their minds. To them, this was a mission of survival and revenge.
Further points in support is that one of the Sith Lords, Garu and another of the council, Tritos Nal are 'loyal friends.' And just look at Simus...they literally mourn him. Simus is concerned about Naga's wellbeing just before his death and Naga even gives a speech about Simus's loyalty and nobility.

Ludo even wants to bury the hatchet with Naga after Ragnos appears.
Which leads to the absolute stupidity of giving Gav ANY position of authority when the Massassi are clearly capable of piloting and operating ships, Sadow has trusted assaults of the other planets to Sith Lords and Gav has zero war experience, little force power and is nothing but trusting. Which isn't really a deciding factor when one decides who to promote in a battle to determine the fate of one's empire


In Sadow's position, I might have trusted Gav too. What you're doing is committing the Historian's Fallacy though.

Saying that putting an untried, untested, not even remotely powerful or intelligent child as the head of a third of your force as opposed to far more capable, powerful and loyal Sith? What makes it even worse is Naga has strained Gav's trust to the breaking point by tricking him to kill-as far as he knows- Ludo Kressh, blew up Starbreaker 12 with only a 'don't worry, nobody was aboard- and has practically been cackling with insane glee in front of him when talking about conquest. Perhaps putting him in a position where he can easily see a city being violently butchered by Sith forces ISN'T a sound idea?


Reading comprehension is your friend. I clearly meant if Sadow was [b]personally leading the raid. I thought the Sith Emperor was Lord Angral, which is he apparently not. [/B]

What I meant was that this Sith Emperor? Clearly much brighter a tactician than Naga

Janus Marius Plo Koon Rulez!

This also depends on no Jedi being capable of locating the one in charge of the assault mentally with simple battle meditation. This plan is only workable if none of his targets don't have a navy of their own-which they don't until the plot demands it.

No Jedi present showed that ability before though. We don't know the level at which the meditation sphere amplifies his powers. He can obviously use his illusionary ability and battle mediation on a level unseen elsewhere in the series, and across lightyears. I'd say it's probably more powerful than anything a conventional Jedi master can muster or detect.

Also, you're forgetting the details of the attack:

Sadow made "tens of thousands" of ships appear above the skies of just one world, and he was assaulting a couple. He doesn't have to rely on the enemies' navy to be inferior when he can substitute numbers with realistic illusions. Which according to even the sensors, appeared to be attacking everywhere at once:

Which even if the illusions were nothing more than air, would be enough for the real forces to conquer a demoralized and panicked force. However, Sadow seems to imply that Sith magic allows him to make them somewhat tangible:

If Odan-Ur's usefulness wasn't the level of a half-dead padawan, one would assume he would direct his battle meditation against his enemy, which would, by proxy, bring it into conflict with Sadow's, immediately locating them. This might not even be necessary as Force Users can sense where battle meditation stems from, as when Kopecz immediately senses the Jedi Master using BM against the Sith forces in Path of Destruction and heads there to kill her. Rather precise locating there.
So, we chalk up a perfect plan to Naga that's viable only because bad writing prevents any Jedi from realizing where their enemy is and immediately informing Empress Teta's whose fleet has mysteriously vanished.

Again, the nature of Sadow's illusions and meditation far outclasses anything a single individual does, and from a far greater distance. While Force sensitives have been shown in some cases to detect beings across the galaxy, there's no sure-fire way to say the same could happen to him. He attacked the heart of the Republic, and no one Jedi recognized the battle meditation, even though two present were proficient in the art to some degree.

Nearly isn't good enough. An intelligent conqueror doesn't put all his eggs in one basket. When your forces, on their own, are not good enough to take a single planet, defended by a grand total of four Jedi without what relies on way too many things going wrong?
In fact, the fact they weren't able to take Cinnagar alone is an embarrassment...Jori Daragon was about the only person with a lightsaber there.

Actually, intelligent conquerors routinely make gambles to destroy the enemy in battles throughout history. The Battle of the Bulge, Hannibal's assault on Rome, Alexander's flanking of Darius III, etc. Commanders cannot foresee all outcomes, and they cannot always make perfect contingency plans. No one ever said arrogance wasn't a defining trait of a Sith Lord (Which explains why they almost always fall to the Jedi in the end), but his plan was pretty powerful and only backfired because he understimated the attachment Gav has for his friends and sister (An attachment which no Sith could ever fathom, since they are all false and self-serving).

I'll ignore your assertion that only four jedi were present, simply because only four were on-panel. The forces were attacking "everywhere", not just the main location where the main characters were depicted. You're again working to undermine Sadow because you don't respect him, as opposed to arguing objectively about his methods and his situation. Additionally, that was only the Senate chambers, not the Jedi Temple.

Nonsense. The Sith Lords shown are, to a fault, loyal to the Dark Lord of the Sith.

No, the Sith Lords are loyal to power. They have shown the ability to betray and murder anyone, from Sadows beloved mentor to Kresshs supporters, etc. The only truly loyal ones would be the Massassi, and they are motivated by power in a sense as well, falling in under their lord because of his capabilities.

The Sith Lords do not show blind obedience to the Dark Lord simply because he is the Dark Lord; they threw their lot in with Sadow because they felt threatened and they wanted to expand after a century or more of being isolated by Ragnos' isolationist policies, which Kressh embraced and furthered along with his supporters. Sadow won the bid for majority support, but he didn't hold the leashes of the other Sith Lords by any means. They could and would have betrayed him to further their own ends at any time, whereas Gav was completely naive and a better puppet.

Just a quick reminder on why Sith Lords don't make the best partners in a galactic war - Revan and Malak.

Ludo's defiance extends to refusing to take part in the assault. He did not challenge Naga, when he has shown himself capable of fighting him on even terms.

Ludo has always worked to get the other Sith Lords on his side, because he knows quite well that a Dark Lord without support is swiftly a dead one. Sadow was more charismatic and intelligent, but Ludo ultimately would try to exploit Sadow's betrayal:

He did not contemplate overthrowing Naga until he learned Naga had betrayed the entire Empire and his co-conspirators don't seem to go along with the plan until they learn this as well.
The other Sith Lords immediately throw their lot in behind Sadow and nothing indicates they had treachery on their minds. To them, this was a mission of survival and revenge.

Ludo Kressh didn't move until he could talk with his peers in private. Even when he does, they note that they are taking a great chance in talking to him and that they fear for their actions. When he proves the treachery, they throw their lot in with him, because they have someting to gain if support swings in Kressh's favor. Since Sadow won the title on his actions previously, if they were revealed to be a plot, Sadow might be exiled or turned on by the other Sith. This doesn't indicate at all that the Sith are as loyal and naive as Gav.

The fact that Sadow was selected by a majority of the council and yet still some of them willingly walked out in a show of disobediance itself even shows how tentative the concept of "ally" was in the Sith Empire. Sure, there was some illusion of social etiquette and structure, and some illusion of empathy, but the Sith Lords are self-proclaimed creatures of darkness. To assert that Sadow would be better off trusting a Sith Lord as his second as opposed to Gav who is blindly loyal to his cause and easily manipulated seems rather silly. The other Sith Lords only react if they feel they have something to gain from it.

Further points in support is that one of the Sith Lords, Garu and another of the council, Tritos Nal are 'loyal friends.' And just look at Simus...they literally mourn him. Simus is concerned about Naga's wellbeing just before his death and Naga even gives a speech about Simus's loyalty and nobility.

I think you're confusing social standards with actual personal loyalties and empathy. Simus, in particular, only exists because the other Sith Lords respect his wisdom and former powers. He even sits at the head of the table during the meeting, but he cannot physically harm anyone. Ragnos himself did not destroy Simus despite beheading him, apparently not being afraid of the former Sith Lord. Simus' death is used as a pivotal event which allows the Sith Lords to demonize the Republic, but then again no real social group in history has ever fully demonized itself. The Sith Lords do not blindly say "We are evil", but that the Republic are "monsters" and they act shocked by their callous attack on the prison, despite the fact that the Sith themselves routinely beat, murder, and oppress an entire caste of people beneath them, and they regularly fight for domination. This is not a society built on personal loyalties, LS. Don't confuse the two.

Furthermore:

Janus Marius Plo Koon Rulez!
Ludo even wants to bury the hatchet with Naga after Ragnos appears.

Ludo wants to make peace because Ragnos demands it, and the balance of the Sith Empire which he holds dear is in jeopardy. Otherwise, he shows nothing but contempt and a strong urge to destroy or remove Sadow throughout the entire series.

Which leads to the absolute stupidity of giving Gav ANY position of authority when the Massassi are clearly capable of piloting and operating ships, Sadow has trusted assaults of the other planets to Sith Lords and Gav has zero war experience, little force power and is nothing but trusting. Which isn't really a deciding factor when one decides who to promote in a battle to determine the fate of one's empire

Gav is only ever put in command of Sadow's flagship, not the entire fleet itself. It's more of a test for Gav than an important piece of strategy, since even without Gav making any relevant decisions, the Republic nearly fell anyways.

He seems pretty confident that the Massassi warriors will assist him in doing what needs to be done, since they are well-indoctrinated. They are capable of piloting and doing the essentials, but they are subserveniant castes that he and his people have oppressed for generations. They cannot be relied upon to show any kind of independent thought.

Saying that putting an untried, untested, not even remotely powerful or intelligent child as the head of a third of your force as opposed to far more capable, powerful and loyal Sith?

I can't say it's the best damn decision in the galaxy, but I question your idea of a "loyal Sith' ally he could have relied upon instead. Also, the fact that Sadow relocated during the battle to a place where he could not be easily attacked tells me he was suspicious, and Gav indicates that he knows Sadow was going there, but did anyone else? All this time, Gav has been a pawn to protect others from suspecting Sadow's treachery. It is not unreasonable that Sadow made it so that only Gav, the gullible fool, knew where he was and that the other Sith Lords were ignorant in case one of them wanted to stab him in the back at this exact moment. Remember that as of this time, only Sadow is a contender for Dark Lord of the Sith, a title all Sith Lords covet.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by Janus Marius
[B]No Jedi present showed that ability before though. We don't know the level at which the meditation sphere amplifies his powers. He can obviously use his illusionary ability and battle mediation on a level unseen elsewhere in the series, and across lightyears. I'd say it's probably more powerful than anything a conventional Jedi master can muster or detect.

Odan Ur? Kaan was seen in a meditation sphere of his own and we saw what happened when another Jedi brought up the BM duel. And 'unseen elsewhere in the series?' That level of power would be easily detectable to any Jeid even remotely trying to peek in

Also, you're forgetting the details of the attack:

Sadow made "tens of thousands" of ships appear above the skies of just one world, and he was assaulting a couple. He doesn't have to rely on the enemies' navy to be inferior when he can substitute numbers with realistic illusions. Which according to even the sensors, appeared to be attacking everywhere at once:


He was assaulting three worlds. Regardless of a losing battle, the Tetan and Republic fleets were superior in almost every respect to the Sith's rough technology. No fleet should stand by and allow the enemy to launch an invasion force, particularly when, again, the Jedi should be out there with you.

Which even if the illusions were nothing more than air, would be enough for the real forces to conquer a demoralized and panicked force. However, Sadow seems to imply that Sith magic allows him to make them somewhat tangible:


No, he doesn't. Nothing-not a thing in the entire saga- implies that they're tangible in the slightest. They're merely illusions, that's all they're described as. and this demoralization isn't often shown. Rather, the forces continue fighting.

Again, the nature of Sadow's illusions and meditation far outclasses anything a single individual does, and from a far greater distance. While Force sensitives have been shown in some cases to detect beings across the galaxy, there's no sure-fire way to say the same could happen to him.


He attacked the heart of the Republic, and no one Jedi recognized the battle meditation, even though two present were proficient in the art to some degree. You don't seem to understand that the level of this power would make it highly, highly easy to find the source and blow him out of the sky.


Actually, intelligent conquerors routinely make gambles to destroy the enemy in battles throughout history. The Battle of the Bulge, Hannibal's assault on Rome, Alexander's flanking of Darius III, etc. Commanders cannot foresee all outcomes, and they cannot always make perfect contingency plans. No one ever said arrogance wasn't a defining trait of a Sith Lord (Which explains why they almost always fall to the Jedi in the end), but his plan was pretty powerful and only backfired because he understimated the attachment Gav has for his friends and sister (An attachment which no Sith could ever fathom, since they are all false and self-serving).

Intelligent conquerors do not often commit all their forces to one strategy with no battle plan. There's a difference between gambling on a single battle and making such a thing the focus of the entire campaign. when Alexander faced Darius there, he'd already secured a good chunk of the western Persian Empire. Hannibal controlled a good chunk of Italy and could summon reinforcements from Spain. Sadow had one chance and only ine and he literally had no back up plan in a horrifically flawed idea.
And he underestimated Gav's attachment to his sister? The guy who did almost nothing but mope for and express love or his sister? Naga understood attachment enough to manipulate it. You are not doing his intelligence any favors.

I'll ignore your assertion that only four jedi were present, simply because only four were on-panel.

Yeah, sorry, the comic specifically says only a few Jedi are fighting on Coruscant. All official representations of the battles list the count of the Jedi as Memit and comrades and Ooroo and Odan

The forces were attacking "everywhere", not just the main location where the main characters were depicted. You're again working to undermine Sadow because you don't respect him, as opposed to arguing objectively about his methods and his situation. Additionally, that was only the Senate chambers, not the Jedi Temple.

Was the Jedi temple even on Coruscant at that point? It would've been on Ossus. And sources seem to support Sadow's attack was merely three pronged. Even assuming he was attacking more than those worlds, nothing indicates there ere any Jedi on Cinnagar or more than four on Coruscant. Let alone Kirek where Odan was totally and completely worthless and Ooroo managed to do something

I don't have to work so hard to undermine Naga. Know why? Because Kevin J. Anderson has no idea how to write convincing threats or battles and for evidence I cite anything having to do with trying to make Daala a credible threat. His writing already undermined the Sith as anything resembling a credible threat


No, the Sith Lords are loyal to power. They have shown the ability to betray and murder anyone, from Sadows beloved mentor to Kresshs supporters, etc. The only truly loyal ones would be the Massassi, and they are motivated by power in a sense as well, falling in under their lord because of his capabilities.

They have? Odd...because not a aingle one contemplates betrayal save Naga until Kressh shows them Naga betrayed them first.
Dor Gal-Ram: They've killed Old Simus!
Other Sith Lord with a horrified look on his face: They are monsters!
So, when did they show the ability to betray and murder 'anyone?' Their very dialogue, loyalty and descriptions-again, Garu and Tritos are described as 'loyal friends' to one another and Garu completely trusts Tritos to forge his items and weapons.
What indicates hunger for power or any scheming on their parts? Even Ludo doesn't seek to supplant Naga until he learns Naga betrayed the Empire

The Sith Lords do not show blind obedience to the Dark Lord simply because he is the Dark Lord; they threw their lot in with Sadow because they felt threatened and they wanted to expand after a century or more of being isolated by Ragnos' isolationist policies, which Kressh embraced and furthered along with his supporters. Sadow won the bid for majority support, but he didn't hold the leashes of the other Sith Lords by any means. They could and would have betrayed him to further their own ends at any time, whereas Gav was completely naive and a better puppet.

When did any of them feel they needed to expand? They went in there because they were worried they were being invaded. When the Sith need to be tricked into going to war?
I'm waiting for this evidence, btw. All of them acknowledge Naga as the one to save them.. They are horrified to hear Simus was murdered. We have some described as loyal friends of the others...
So, yeah, prove up. And 'They're Sith' doesn't work.


Just a quick reminder on why Sith Lords don't make the best partners in a galactic war - Revan and Malak.

Sith from a completely different point in time. This doesn't, btw, explain why Naga didn't have Gav shut away from the fighting to protect him. Someone half as bright as you claim Naga to be should realize he's testing Gav's patience and naivete constantly. Every single scene Naga and Gav are onscreen is Naga giving Gav another reason to distrust him.

And this isn't explaining why Naga has a large fleet of ships, each captained by a Sith Lord and Sith Lords leading the assaults.

Ludo has always worked to get the other Sith Lords on his side, because he knows quite well that a Dark Lord without support is swiftly a dead one. Sadow was more charismatic and intelligent, but Ludo ultimately would try to exploit Sadow's betrayal:


sadow was seen as a dangerous outsider. KRESSH had the popular support until the attack, where they thought Sadow was proven right


Ludo Kressh didn't move until he could talk with his peers in private. Even when he does, they note that they are taking a great chance in talking to him and that they fear for their actions. When he proves the treachery, they throw their lot in with him, because they have someting to gain if support swings in Kressh's favor. Since Sadow won the title on his actions previously, if they were revealed to be a plot, Sadow might be exiled or turned on by the other Sith. This doesn't indicate at all that the Sith are as loyal and naive as Gav.

No, he doesn't move PERIOD until he realizes Naga is a traitor. This isn't screaming 'treacherous, usurping society.'
It doesn't seem odd that the Sith are having to actually go through a legal process to plot against the others That Ludo isn't gathering the two loyal to him and attacking right off? Or just plain out trying to murder Naga? Or even CHALLENGE him?
I'm waiting for a plausible explanation, hopefully one that incorporates why this greedy, murderous society is so up in arms over the death of a cripple.

Lightsnake Senior Member


The fact that Sadow was selected by a majority of the council and yet still some of them willingly walked out in a show of disobediance itself even shows how tentative the concept of "ally" was in the Sith Empire.

Naga specifically said to let them go. He had taken preparations to get rid of them already.
And again, odd how two Sith Lords on that council are described as loyal friends to one another and trust the other implicitly with all this.
I'm still waiting.

Sure, there was some illusion of social etiquette and structure, and some illusion of empathy, but the Sith Lords are self-proclaimed creatures of darkness.

You have an odd view on how the Sith view darkness. They've made their view on what the Dark Side means many, many times


To assert that Sadow would be better off trusting a Sith Lord as his second as opposed to Gav who is blindly loyal to his cause and easily manipulated seems rather silly. The other Sith Lords only react if they feel they have something to gain from it.

No, appointing a stupid, inexperienced, powerless moron who's growing suspicious of you to full command of your fleet, as opposed to even the Massassi is utterly idiotic. When Naga is, again, ALREADY TRUSTING SITH LORDS to captain his fleets. The Sith were so blindly focused on this crusade, the idea they'd jeopardize it, let their empire be exterminated for a vindictive shot at the title is nothing short of lunacy.


I think you're confusing social standards with actual personal loyalties and empathy. Simus, in particular, only exists because the other Sith Lords respect his wisdom and former powers.[ He even sits at the head of the table during the meeting, but he cannot physically harm anyone. Ragnos himself did not destroy Simus despite beheading him, apparently not being afraid of the former Sith Lord. Simus' death is used as a pivotal event which allows the Sith Lords to demonize the Republic, but then again no real social group in history has ever fully demonized itself. The Sith Lords do not blindly say "We are evil", but that the Republic are "monsters" and they act shocked by their callous attack on the prison, despite the fact that the Sith themselves routinely beat, murder, and oppress an entire caste of people beneath them, and they regularly fight for domination. This is not a society built on personal loyalties, LS. Don't confuse the two.

It's hard to be afraid of a talking head with almost no power.

And yeah, the Sith routinely oppress their lessers. Are you really trying to use the fact their society is an oppressive caste system to the fact they're all horrible monsters with no caring for anyone but themselves This isn't debatable: They are all HORRIFIED at the murder of Simus and extol his virtue, wisdom and perseverance. Simus was a helpless cripple...remember one tenet of the Sith code: The weak deserve their fate. That Simus was not only alive, but honored and cared for undermines your entire position. Even more with Garu and Tritos and Simus and Naga when Simus specifically worries for Naga's safety and well being.
You're confusing your preconceptions of the Sith with what KJA presents them as, which is a stupid and inconsistent portrayal.


Furthermore:


How does the image counter...anything? Using the fact that the Sith council was a ruling oligarchy of a slaveholding and oppressive society does not preclude their loyalty to the Empire and the Dark Lord.


Ludo wants to make peace because Ragnos demands it, and the balance of the Sith Empire which he holds dear is in jeopardy. Otherwise, he shows nothing but contempt and a strong urge to destroy or remove Sadow throughout the entire series.

He's antagonistic at the start, but only outright murderous when Sadow is discovered to have manufactured the attack.


Gav is only ever put in command of Sadow's flagship, not the entire fleet itself. It's more of a test for Gav than an important piece of strategy, since even without Gav making any relevant decisions, the Republic nearly fell anyways.

When you put someone in charge of your flagship, that follows they become the leader of the fleet. Naga even tells him the decision will be his.
You do not assign newbies 'tests' in the middle of a massive battle that will determine the fate of your empire.

He seems pretty confident that the Massassi warriors will assist him in doing what needs to be done, since they are well-indoctrinated. They are capable of piloting and doing the essentials, but they are subserveniant castes that he and his people have oppressed for generations. They cannot be relied upon to show any kind of independent thought.


Can he even understand the Massassi? and according to you, there isn't need for independent thought here...there aren't many decisions needed to be made.


I can't say it's the best damn decision in the galaxy, but I question your idea of a "loyal Sith' ally he could have relied upon instead.

Which Sith would have done a thing to Sadow? The council were all convince dthey were in danger and most of them would be on the ground. What Sith of ANY intelligence would make a move that absolutely destroyed a chance for victory and as far as they knew, survival of the Empire?
and this is Naga "Your Massassi are really my Massassi" Sadow. At the barest HINT of treason, he could've had a knife in the right back.

Also, the fact that Sadow relocated during the battle to a place where he could not be easily attacked tells me he was suspicious, and Gav indicates that he knows Sadow was going there, but did anyone else?

How would they, in their arrival, all miss the position of their boss when we see all the ships going past the Meditation sphere? This makes the decision to appoint Gav even more questionable if nobody knows where he is

All this time, Gav has been a pawn to protect others from suspecting Sadow's treachery. It is not unreasonable that Sadow made it so that only Gav, the gullible fool, knew where he was and that the other Sith Lords were ignorant in case one of them wanted to stab him in the back at this exact moment. Remember that as of this time, only Sadow is a contender for Dark Lord of the Sith, a title all Sith Lords covet.

He is also, as far as they know, the one single hope their Empire has of surviving. The Sith are power hungry. They are not stupid enough to destroy their entire empire just to rule over the ashes.

And in this case, why give Gav his position at all? That's asking for trouble since any ambitious Sith Lord could easily wheedle it out of him. There's really no defending that the move Naga made here was colossally stupid. Appointing Gav merely ceremonially, but with the orders he never, EVER be left alone, he was not to go to the surface to see the fighting and if he showed any sign of suspicion, he was to be instantly killed, this would be avoided. Instead, NAga gave him the position and meant it.

Janus Marius Plo Koon Rulez!

Well, well. LS contradicting everything I have to say, from A to Z. Surprise, surprise.

I just dealt with your triple post in another thread and I'm a bit weary of the back-and-forth so you'll excuse me if I don't reply to this one right away. I think if you actually agreed with me about something in SW, you might lose your reputation or something, it just seems so funny that you have to rabidly challenge me in every thread I'm in. I didn't go looking for you, LS. Try and throttle it down, will you?

Captain REX Networking

What are you guys even debating? This isn't on topic, in any case.

Elite Hunter Senior Member
Originally posted by Captain REX
What are you guys even debating? This isn't on topic, in any case.

Do most of our debates ever stay on topic...

Captain REX Networking

No, but they should. ermm

So... anyone know how long the gap is between KOTOR2 and TOR? I don't think Satele Shan is Bastila's daughter.

ares834 Senior Member

298 years...

Captain REX Networking

That's pretty exciting. I'm guessing Bastila had an illegitimate son that maintained her last name... and so the name Shan continued. Cool beans, Jedi.

Janus Marius Plo Koon Rulez!
What are you guys even debating? This isn't on topic, in any case.

A point was brought up by me about the Sith Emperor not planning his assault like Sadow, as a method to rule him out as the character behind the scenes. LS disagreed, hilarity ensued, next it turns into a pissing match over who's interpretation of Sadow's military cunning is more accurate -- mine or his.

That's pretty exciting. I'm guessing Bastila had an illegitimate son that maintained her last name... and so the name Shan continued. Cool beans, Jedi.

I seem to recall another Shan somewhere in the series. Or am I missing something here?

Captain REX Networking

Let's see... according to Wookieepedia (when searching for "Shan"😉, we get... Bastila Shan, Helena Shan (her mother), Deena Shan (Rebel saboteur, no relation), Lido Shan (Republic technician, humanoid), and Prid Shan (Senatorial guard, no relation).

And now Satele Shan.

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Autokrat
They did have a year together before Revan ran off and apparently got ***** slapped by Sadow. Of course, I doubt it is, and I also doubt we will ever know.

Sadow died much earlier.

How come it is possible for Revan to face Sadow unless it was a Force Ghost of the ancient Sith Lord?

Also can you mention more details of the proposed fight?

CadoAngelus Zanpakuto

does it actually suggest that she's bastila's daughter? unless it takes a lot of reading into it more than let out, it just says to me that she shares a gift that Bastila had...

I mean, sure they share the same last name, but so does Wedge Antillies and Captain Antillies...but they're not related

Slash_KMC Retired Helper

Exactly, I remember several Fett's and Starkillers.

Eminence Boss

Cassus Fett, Bendak Starkiller. The former was presumably an ancestor of the movie-era Fetts, but the latter almost certainly has no relationship to TFU Starkiller, whose real name is Galen Marek.

Slash_KMC Retired Helper

And Windy Starkiller. He was friends with Luke Skywalker and Biggs Darklighter. Those three have some pretty epic last names.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Keep in mind 'Bendeak Starkiller' might be a ring name and Galen Marek's codename is just that.

Also, apparently 'Antilles' is a remarkably common last name...it is odd to see a 'Shan' in a KOTOR, though.

Janus Marius Plo Koon Rulez!

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
does it actually suggest that she's bastila's daughter? unless it takes a lot of reading into it more than let out, it just says to me that she shares a gift that Bastila had...

I mean, sure they share the same last name, but so does Wedge Antillies and Captain Antillies...but they're not related

Honestly, I thought she was Bastila until someone corrected me on the timeframe of the webcomics. She looks identical, shares the same last name, and has similar abilities. She's even headstrong like Bastila. If she's suddenly not related, someone over at LFL needs a swift kick in the nose.