Originally posted by BackFireOh yeah, he would have been like "Nah, it won't last" and still continued on for sure. But not getting to raise that point at the end was a real slap in the face for me; I basically approached Mass Effect as a cause-and-effect diplomacy simulator from the start, more than anything else. They added in great diplomacy features that I hadn't seen in anything else of a comparable quality, so I basically played Shepard as the ultimate negotiator, rather than the ultimate soldier or leader. Mostly Paragon, slightly Renegade when it called for it. Instead of choosing one or the other, it opens up the possibility to transcend a dichotomy and achieve something greater. Really unique at the time, imo, and expertly done until Star Boi appears.
It would have been nice if you could mention the peace between the Geth and the Quarians, sure. But, in the end, it wouldn't have mattered, he probably wouldn't have found it as compelling as you think. It's a pretty easy thing to toss aside as an ungenuine short term peace made of desperation in the face of an unstoppable mutual enemy than a legitimate desire for it, because without the reaper invasion there would have been no peace, and the Geth would have been genocided by the Quarians, which is an argument he definitely would have made.I actually wish it was not possible to broker a peace with the Quarians and the Geth. Took what is probably the most difficult choice in the entire series and made it possible to sidestep it. Cheapened it a bit.
If getting peace between the Quarians and Geth were easy, then it shouldn't have been in the game. But the road to a truce between the races is long and hard, and you can **** it up irreparably even in the first game (iirc? might be wrong there). The relationship between the organic and the synthetic is a major theme in all of the games, so the fact that it wasn't integrated into the ending is conspicuous enough for me to consider it a result of EA rushing the final section of the game.
I think the original ending was going to be a lot deeper and more complex, and the whole 'Indoctrination Theory' stuff I think is linked to this too – they were clearly going in a certain direction with all of the 'hints' that people picked up on, but discarded them when they ran out of money / changed management / ran out of time or whatever. It's like the final 20 minutes of the game are made by a completely different production company. Mass Effect was never about just choosing blue or red.
Originally posted by Scribble
Oh yeah, he would have been like "Nah, it won't last" and still continued on for sure. But not getting to raise that point at the end was a real slap in the face for me; I basically approached Mass Effect as a cause-and-effect diplomacy simulator from the start, more than anything else. They added in great diplomacy features that I hadn't seen in anything else of a comparable quality, so I basically played Shepard as the ultimate negotiator, rather than the ultimate soldier or leader. Mostly Paragon, slightly Renegade when it called for it. Instead of choosing one or the other, it opens up the possibility to transcend a dichotomy and achieve something greater. Really unique at the time, imo, and expertly done until Star Boi appears.If getting peace between the Quarians and Geth were easy, then it shouldn't have been in the game. But the road to a truce between the races is long and hard, and you can **** it up irreparably even in the first game (iirc? might be wrong there). The relationship between the organic and the synthetic is a major theme in all of the games, so the fact that it wasn't integrated into the ending is conspicuous enough for me to consider it a result of EA rushing the final section of the game.
I think the original ending was going to be a lot deeper and more complex, and the whole 'Indoctrination Theory' stuff I think is linked to this too – they were clearly going in a certain direction with all of the 'hints' that people picked up on, but discarded them when they ran out of money / changed management / ran out of time or whatever. It's like the final 20 minutes of the game are made by a completely different production company. Mass Effect was never about just choosing blue or red.
I usually play it similarly to you, I like paragade for the most part.
Getting peace rubbed me the wrong way because it was available on my first play through because I inadvertently made the correct decisions along the way. I remember as I initially realized that I was going to have to choose to kill either the Geth or the Quarians I just sat and thought about it for about 20 minutes before progressing. It was the most difficult choice in the entire series for me, then as I began progressing through the dialogue options I realized I would be able to sidestep it and felt very disappointed. It also felt forced. If anything I think the option to broker a truce itself was probably something they put in at the last minute because they were afraid people would be too upset over being forced to make that choice.
Well, the original ending was going to be the dark energy ending, that was what was originally envisioned, which you may or may not be aware of. If you are not then you should read up on it. A lot of people think it would have been an improvement over the ending we got but I don't agree. At least the themes of organic vs synthetic were prevalent in all three games, so to have that be the main idea behind the reaper's choices made more sense. Where as the dark energy idea was referenced exactly once during Tali's recruit mission in ME2.
But I agree, I think a lot of the problems people had with the game, and the ending (which I think are largely hyperbolic and overblown) are the result of a rushed development schedule for the game.
Despite that I think ME3 is in a lot of ways the best game in the series. It has by far the best character moments for me, it has some of the most memorable missions and choices, and at times it got so dark as to become kind of overwhelming (I love dark fiction so this was a good thing for me), also the best gunplay.
My only real complaint about the game is not the end choice/cinematic, but the last level. I thought we were going to get ME2's suicide mission but with an increased scope and scale, where you'd assign certain races to do certain things and they'd succeed or fail based on their expertise and some behind the scenes number crunching based on choices you've made. Instead we got a pretty standard horde mode type thing.
Originally posted by BackFireJust looked up the Dark Energy stuff, seems weird at a first glance, not sure how I didn't hear about that earlier. I remember being on the internet for days after finishing ME3 though, so maybe I just forgot. mmm It doesn't sound any more satisfying though, that's for sure. I get the feeling they didn't really plan the series out all that much in the first game, tbh. Like, "we'll wait until the last game to figure out what the Reapers even are or why they're here." Hence all this confusion about harvesting dark energy / matter.
I usually play it similarly to you, I like paragade for the most part.Getting peace rubbed me the wrong way because it was available on my first play through because I inadvertently made the correct decisions along the way. I remember as I initially realized that I was going to have to choose to kill either the Geth or the Quarians I just sat and thought about it for about 20 minutes before progressing. It was the most difficult choice in the entire series for me, then as I began progressing through the dialogue options I realized I would be able to sidestep it and felt very disappointed. It also felt forced. If anything I think the option to broker a truce itself was probably something they put in at the last minute because they were afraid people would be too upset over being forced to make that choice.
Well, the original ending was going to be the dark energy ending, that was what was originally envisioned, which you may or may not be aware of. If you are not then you should read up on it. A lot of people think it would have been an improvement over the ending we got but I don't agree. At least the themes of organic vs synthetic were prevalent in all three games, so to have that be the main idea behind the reaper's choices made more sense. Where as the dark energy idea was referenced exactly once during Tali's recruit mission in ME2.
But I agree, I think a lot of the problems people had with the game, and the ending (which I think are largely hyperbolic and overblown) are the result of a rushed development schedule for the game.
Despite that I think ME3 is in a lot of ways the best game in the series. It has by far the best character moments for me, it has some of the most memorable missions and choices, and at times it got so dark as to become kind of overwhelming (I love dark fiction so this was a good thing for me), also the best gunplay.
My only real complaint about the game is not the end choice/cinematic, but the last level. I thought we were going to get ME2's suicide mission but with an increased scope and scale, where you'd assign certain races to do certain things and they'd succeed or fail based on their expertise and some behind the scenes number crunching based on choices you've made. Instead we got a pretty standard horde mode type thing.
I can understand your perspective thing on the Geth / Quarian situation. But idk, I think it was important to have it in, since the message that synthetics and organics can never co-exist peacefully is way too depressing for Mass Effect imo. I was actively working for a truce from the first game, so I'd have been hacked off personally if they'd not included it as an option. I feel like you have to make enough tough decisions and take enough chances in the first place to get there, so it's warranted. Been a while since I played them now though, so maybe if I played them again I'd feel differently.
Completely agree with you about the rest of ME3 – even though I hold a special place for 1 (it was like playing KotOR for the first time again), 3 definitely wins out in terms of combat, weapons, and armour choices, and yeah not to mention the dark and oppressive feel of the whole game and masterful writing. The character moments are overwhelming even to just remember. Mordin, just to begin with...
Yup, I didn't even realise it was the final mission until I found myself confronting the Illusive Man. What a waste. I was even more annoyed because I was looking forward to seeing London, and what I got were generic video game city streets. You think they'd have a nice bit next to the Thames, next to Big Ben, etc. And yeah I was also expecting them to make more use of the different races and navies you had at your disposal. If only they'd just let them finish it – I mean, it was quite a big release, you think they'd fund it properly to the end. I don't really know what happened there though.
Originally posted by Scribble
Just looked up the Dark Energy stuff, seems weird at a first glance, not sure how I didn't hear about that earlier. I remember being on the internet for days after finishing ME3 though, so maybe I just forgot. mmm It doesn't sound any more satisfying though, that's for sure. I get the feeling they didn't really plan the series out all that much in the first game, tbh. Like, "we'll wait until the last game to figure out what the Reapers even are or why they're here." Hence all this confusion about harvesting dark energy / matter.I can understand your perspective thing on the Geth / Quarian situation. But idk, I think it was important to have it in, since the message that synthetics and organics can never co-exist peacefully is way too depressing for Mass Effect imo. I was actively working for a truce from the first game, so I'd have been hacked off personally if they'd not included it as an option. I feel like you have to make enough tough decisions and take enough chances in the first place to get there, so it's warranted. Been a while since I played them now though, so maybe if I played them again I'd feel differently.
Completely agree with you about the rest of ME3 – even though I hold a special place for 1 (it was like playing KotOR for the first time again), 3 definitely wins out in terms of combat, weapons, and armour choices, and yeah not to mention the dark and oppressive feel of the whole game and masterful writing. The character moments are overwhelming even to just remember. Mordin, just to begin with...
Yup, I didn't even realise it was the final mission until I found myself confronting the Illusive Man. What a waste. I was even more annoyed because I was looking forward to seeing London, and what I got were generic video game city streets. You think they'd have a nice bit next to the Thames, next to Big Ben, etc. And yeah I was also expecting them to make more use of the different races and navies you had at your disposal. If only they'd just let them finish it – I mean, it was quite a big release, you think they'd fund it properly to the end. I don't really know what happened there though.
That's definitely what happened. I think Drew Karpyshyn has sad as much in some interviews where they asked him about the dark energy plotline, and he basically said it was the first idea they had for the ending but it wasn't fleshed out or really thought out much at all, and that they never really had a concrete idea about where the story was ultimately going while they were making the first and second game. It's understandable, imo. When you're working on something that will be in development for like 5+years it can be difficult and pointless to really think of a concrete ending near the start of development because chances are by the time you actually get to that point the ending you first envisioned may not really fit anymore because of different choices you've taken along the way.
Well, it's less about showing that peace is an impossibility between organics and synthetics and more about the particular conflict and history between the geth and quarians specifically. With how long their conflict has been brewing and all the blood and propaganda on the Quarian side, I feel like a genuine and long-term peace between them is just probably not realistically in the cards. The geth/quarian war is a very sad story, so I think it makes sense for it to have a sad ending as well.
You know now that you mention it I think I wasn't positive that it was the last mission either, not until you get to that halfway point where you are able to say one last goodbye to your crew.
I think it was less a matter of funding and more just a matter of time. It takes a lot of time to make these branching type of storylines and to implement them into a game, I'm sure. And I got the impression that they were being pressured to release it as quickly as possible. I remember the game was originally slated to release during the holiday of 2011 and it got delayed until march or whatever. Imagine how rough the game would have been had they stuck to that initial release date. But yeah imagine how different the game may have been had it had another 6 months or so to gestate. Who knows what we would have gotten.