The Official Superman's Abilities - Discussion Thread

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Second, if Superman can perceive and react super-luniminally a punch from the likes of Wonder Woman, The General and the Martian Manhunter (all whom have yet to prove they are any where near F.T.L.) would easily be countered. Don't forget, If your perceiving F.T.L ,anything moving slower looks Frozen in time, for you are traveling a faster than the light that you are perceiving (Don't even get me started on the paradoxes this causes). However Superman could literally not be punched by someone with sub-Luminal speed. It would be as easy as avoiding a sedated snail.

Thirdly, in Grant Morissons run on JLA he makes reference to Superman not being able to go F.T.L. He has to steal Flashes speed to out run a Rann Zeta beam. As you know your first example is taken from a Grant Morisson written text. Fourthly your third counter example could arguably done at sub luminal speeds, when you consider that Light goes round the entire earth several times a second, the distance he would have to cover in "Bizaro City" is hardly comparable.

he's caught punches by wonder woman before, and he has been upgraded since morrison's run on jla in 1998.

not arguing, or anything, just, you know, pointing it out...

Originally posted by Raoul
he's caught punches by wonder woman before, and he has been upgraded since morrison's run on jla in 1998.

not arguing, or anything, just, you know, pointing it out...

Upgraded, unofficially

And they are more likely to do with his Superior sub-luminal speed.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
First off, your rhetorical sarcastic counter example happens all the time. Ever been hit in the face with a ball that you saw coming towardsyou? Yeah... same principle, you perceivethe ball but you don't physically react quickly enough to counter it. There's nothing illogical about it.

Second, if Superman can perceive and react super-luniminally a punch from the likes of Wonder Woman, The General and the Martian Manhunter (all whom have yet to prove they are any where near F.T.L.) would easily be countered. Don't forget, If your perceiving F.T.L ,anything moving slower looks Frozen in time, for you are traveling a faster than the light that you are perceiving (Don't even get me started on the paradoxes this causes). However Superman could literally not be punched by someone with sub-Luminal speed. It would be as easy as avoiding a sedated snail.

Thirdly, in Grant Morissons run on JLA he makes reference to Superman not being able to go F.T.L. He has to steal Flashes speed to out run a Rann Zeta beam. As you know your first example is taken from a Grant Morisson written text. Fourthly your third counter example could arguably done at sub luminal speeds, when you consider that Light goes round the entire earth several times a second, the distance he would have to cover in "Bizaro City" is hardly comparable.

Fourthly, how do we know that Kryptonite radiation consists of photonic radiation? It could infact be alpha of beta in nature making it avoidable at subluminal speeds.

Firstly. Heh, how nice of you to change your argument. Or at least, perhap this is what you meant to say in the first place, but the example you used, where the mind has time due to the artificially enhanced nervous system to percieve and analyze the threat, thus the 'bullet moving in slow motion' comment, but the body is 'incompatible' with the mind's speed and thus effectivly being a statue compared to the bullet, was bad enough that you lost your original ideea along the way. Because it isn't compatible with your current argument where the mind is 'compatible' with the body, but is unable to react fast enough in order to command the body to move out of the way, which effectivly doesn't mean that the body doesn't have the necessary speed to get out of the way, but due to the body/mind 'combined' that you are unable to dodge the ball.

But, for example, if we were to put that anology in context with the Superman/Flashes speed feat, it would be akin to a ball coming twoards my face and me just looking at it, and also having time to utter "made by Nike?" afterwards slamming me in the face. If I had time to look at it, recognize who made it and even utter 'by Nike?' you don't think I'd have time to move my body fast enough to either defend myself using my hands, or just get my head out of the way ? Thus, your counter-argument is still a bad one.

Secondly, those are all PIS, and it happens quite frequently in the comics, to pretty much all those who operate at super-speed. It's Carver or Quanchi-lite type of argument (not insulting those, since I can actually show numerous posts from them doing this) which aren't applicable. Anybody with decent amount of superspeed shouldn't be tagged by far slower characters, yet they do, and they always will.

Thirdly. That was written by Mark Waid and not Grant Morrison.

So that point fails. On two accounts actually, since Superman has been upgraded since then.

You seem to think that he zoomed around the city. No. He built it all. An entire city. Building an entire block is an impressive display of superspeed alone, but an entire city ? That's just insane. And from the scan, you can actually see far-off buildings in the background, just to get the scope of what he had actually done.

Fourthly, since that is kryptonite radiation in electromagnetic wavelength form, it is logical to assume it travels lightspeed. I don't know why put this stupid questions, like I'm just going to pull out a 'science of kryptonite' scan out of nowhere, because that's obviously the first thing the writers will take care of. They'll make a detailed study just for you.

facepalm

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Upgraded, unofficially

Officially, actually.

Originally posted by Philosophía

But, for example, if we were to put that anology in context with the Superman/Flashes speed feat, it would be akin to a ball coming twoards my face and me just looking at it, and also having time to utter "made by Nike?" afterwards slamming me in the face. If I had time to look at it, recognize who made it and even utter 'by Nike?' you don't think I'd have time to move my body fast enough to either defend myself using my hands, or just get my head out of the way ? Thus, your counter-argument is still a bad one.

facepalm

Your argument seems quite persuasive but is inherently sophistic.

"If I had time to look at it, recognize who made it and even utter 'by Nike?' you don't think I'd have time to move my body fast enough to either defend myself using my hands, or just get my head out of the way ?"

There's a very subtle, but massive flaw with this counter example, which involves sound being massively slower than light. Your counter is invalid because it would mean the utterance of the Words (AKA a sound) being faster than light.

I suppose when Superman is uttering the words, the sound is also F.T.L. ?

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Your argument seems quite persuasive but is inherently sophistic.

"If I had time to look at it, recognize who made it and even utter 'by Nike?' you don't think I'd have time to move my body fast enough to either defend myself using my hands, or just get my head out of the way ?"

There's a very subtle, but massive flaw with this counter example, which involves sound being massively slower than light. Your counter is invalid because it would mean the utterance of the Words (AKA a sound) being faster than light.

I suppose when Superman is uttering the words, the sound is also F.T.L. ?

Here's him chasing Wally at over two thousand miles a second, and having conversations while doing it:

Here's him racing Jay, at close to peak-speed, and the same thing happening:

And there are many, many other.

It should also be mentioned that the idea that he can't move his body that fast (other than flying) is wrong as he punched Wonder Woman at FTL speeds, his arm had to be moving FTL to do that.

In addition, it's possible that he has to shift his perceptions to see things at super speed, like the Flashes do. Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to interact normally (it would take days or weeks to hear a normal person say a single word)

Originally posted by Endless Mike
In addition, it's possible that he has to shift his perceptions to see things at super speed, like the Flashes do. Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to interact normally (it would take days or weeks to hear a normal person say a single word)

Logically speaking, that should be the case, since it would be nearly impossible to live in a world where you constantly operate at superspeed. But, as examples show, he doesn't need to 'turn on his superspeed', as he is constantly operating at speeds that allow him to react fast enough to things moving at high-speeds. For example, here he reacts to Bloodsport shooting at Jimmy after it's fired and moves fast enough to catch the bullet (eventough it's the period where he was just starting to regain his powers, as the instance shows his flying powers just kicked in):

And then there's also probably my all-time favorite bullet-time feat, where even after being constantly shot with red sun radiation while fighting Ruin he is still fast enough to react to a gunshot shot from a close distance and go to the other side of Metropolis, and arrive there just at the instant the shot (intentionally) misses the target. I'd post it, but you most likely know of it. And though the scan I posted above with him racing the Flash mentions Superman's perception switching to match Flashes', I'd like to bring up the Final Crisis example again, where he instantly percieves Barry Allen passing by him at superluminal speed despite not really switching his perceptions or 'activating his superspeed'.

The one where his perceptions had to adapt was before IC, iirc, so we could easily say that it was part of his upgrade, imo...

Originally posted by Raoul
The one where his perceptions had to adapt was before IC, iirc, so we could easily say that it was part of his upgrade, imo...

Your sig makes me interested in the all of the Corps. Especially the violet one.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Your sig makes me interested in the all of the Corps. Especially the violet one.

lol, its worth it imo if you go and catch up...

Originally posted by Raoul
lol, its worth it imo if you go and catch up...

How many issues am I behind by?

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
How many issues am I behind by?

The leadup to Blackest Night is...

GL v4 26 - Present (last issue was 39)

Final Crisis, Rage of the Red Lanterns is in there too.

GL Corps 19 - Present (i think the last was 33)

those, and the Blackest Night #0, which was out this week... It's more of a preview issue, though...

Originally posted by Raoul
So are we all agreed that Superman > light?

Yes. In For Tomorrow which I've just recently read he is in his bed and hears Kyle Rayner pleading for help. Kyle is in a battle in space a "million miles away." The fact that Superman arrives in time to help Kyle shows how little time has passed.
A million miles isn't too much of an exaggeration either, because he mentions the "symmetry" of it as he was away when a million people instantly vanished.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Superfast people talking at speeds far exceeding the speed of sound isn't unheard of in comics. In fact, I can show you several examples involving Superman himself.

Here's him chasing Wally at over two thousand miles a second, and having conversations while doing it:

Here's him racing Jay, at close to peak-speed, and the same thing happening:

And there are many, many other.

I think this pretty much sums up the paradox of debating fictional, in- valid abilities. Your trying to prescribe realism to something that is based solely on writer subjectivity. You're appealing to a meta-literacy that doesn't exist. The words "can", and "cannot" are only associated with contexts that have rules. As comic characters abilities are entirely based on the credulity of the writer, there cannot be any rules. The problem with this relativism, is that if you advocate the notion "that anything goes" you can't associate any truth value to it. True, false are closely associated with the words "can", and "cannot". By appealing to evidence that is illogical, you are inadvertently saying that there is no logic. With no logical restrictions, there are no rules. If there are no rules there cannot be any true or false. In other words you're claim that I am false about my interpretation is undermined by you're own opposing argument. In other words you're arguing for an absurdity.

Of course you are going respond by appealing to writer credulity; i.e. writers don't consider realism when writing comic books. However, this can be countered in various ways. First off no one can really ever do this properly, as our brains work in a logical manner. In other words when the writer makes the illogical happen in a comic (And I'm talking about necessary deductive logic here, not natural rationality), he's basically creating a contradiction. And IMO, if we are going to try and make sense of comic book realism we should ignore contradictions. To highlight what i mean; If Grant Morison stated that Superman had a father who was also his uncle, I would come to reject it as a illogical impossibility. I would regarded it as retarded writing, PIS or CIS (As people sometimes refer to it as). A father by definition cannot be simultaneously an uncle.

If you are going to reject this, on the grounds that its a comic book and "Anything Goes", you going to piss on youre own bonfire. I would come along and say 'If you're saying that logic no loner applies, then things can be both possible and impossible. For "Impossible" and "possible" are both associated with deductive logic. In other words by advocating the logical fallacy of the pictures above, you are undermining language all together as well as the principles of sufficient reason. So yes I am entitled to say that Superman CANNOT speak at F.T.L. speeds, but I also agree that he CAN. I also disagree that he can, and I disagree he cannot, but I agree with this and also disagree with it, and so on for Infinity.Therefore, Superman CAN and CANNOT speak at F.T.L. speeds. But surely the word "cannot", contradicts the word "can". No it doesn't because "anything goes", its up to the writer. In conclusion all comic book characters can do anything, and cannot do anything, simultaneously. So you're argument supports mine, as well as disagrees with it. You're argument opposes and proposes my opinion simultaneously. Thanks mate. 🙂

Applying real-world phisical laws to characters like Flash/Superman and then due to many of their displayed abilities contradicting those making your current stance, which is practically going 'I can think whatever I want, because based on real life laws this can't happen' (only with walls of text) is quite frankly, illogical.

I can see your point of view, but I strongly disagree with it. I start from the premise that the laws of physics still apply in comics, but don't see nothing wrong with characters like Superman/Flash and other super-powered heroes 'contradicting' them on ocasions. We are talking about the same Superman who can go at FTL. Who can hear things from Lightyears away. Who looks at souls. Who has been theorized to actually bend space/time in order to fly. I could just aswell say that instead of contradicting them, he is powerfull enough to 'bypass' them.

----

Anyhow, this is moving away from the purpose of this thread, which is not 'physics of superheroes'. I consider the 'Superman FTL' point done, so I'd like to move on to other things.

I've heard somebody mention T-Vo. From what I understand, this ability won't be used in the post-Infinite Crisis continuity because they found it silly (can't say I disagree with it).

Feel free to ask any question about anything Superman-related. It isn't necessary to be soley-Superman related, as we can discuss how he compares to other heroes aswell, based on history.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Applying real-world phisical laws to characters like Flash/Superman and then due to many of their displayed abilities contradicting those making your current stance, which is practically going 'I can think whatever I want, because based on real life laws this can't happen' (only with walls of text) is quite frankly, illogical.

I can see your point of view, but I strongly disagree with it. I start from the premise that the laws of physics still apply in comics, but don't see nothing wrong with characters like Superman/Flash and other super-powered heroes 'contradicting' them on ocasions. We are talking about the same Superman who can go at FTL. Who can hear things from Lightyears away. Who looks at souls. Who has been theorized to actually bend space/time in order to fly. I could just aswell say that instead of contradicting them, he is powerfull enough to 'bypass' them.

Im not talking about the laws of physics though, they aren't logically necessary. I'm talking about the laws of reason, logic, common sense etc. They seem to be meta physically binding to all things, man made etc. Other wise what ever is in question is pure nonsense. Now I don't mind nonsense in fiction, because its not bound by real world realism. However debating about nonsense in JUST as nonsensical. A debate by nature requires language which is governed by logical structure. If the subject matter doesn't have the same LOGICAL structure (AND once agin im not talking about physics, biology, chemistry etc, Im talking about analytics i.e. maths, tautologies etc), then you cannot infer logical assertions. Assertions like "Superman can react faster than light" can't be made because the subject itself is nonsensical. You might as well be debating the angles of a four sided triangle, or the shades of a "color" that is both black and white simultaneously. Its Pure gibberish. To do a G.E. Moore shift or sorts; I could assert that Batman is capable of creating a female bachelor, and I could justify this on the grounds that its cannon because logic doesn't apply to comics. Are you really going to tell me that this is acceptable, because this is what you are arguing.

Moving faster than light is physically impossible but not logically impossible. Same for speaking at super speeds. It seems you are not applying proper suspension of disbelief.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Im not talking about the laws of physics though, they aren't logically necessary. I'm talking about the laws of reason, logic, common sense etc. They seem to be meta physically binding to all things, man made etc. Other wise what ever is in question is pure nonsense. Now I don't mind nonsense in fiction, because its not bound by real world realism. However debating about nonsense in JUST as nonsensical. A debate by nature requires language which is governed by logical structure. If the subject matter doesn't have the same LOGICAL structure (AND once agin im not talking about physics, biology, chemistry etc, Im talking about analytics i.e. maths, tautologies etc), then you cannot infer logical assertions. Assertions like "Superman can react faster than light" can't be made because the subject itself is nonsensical. You might as well be debating the angles of a four sided triangle, or the shades of a "color" that is both black and white simultaneously. Its Pure gibberish. To do a G.E. Moore shift or sorts; I could assert that Batman is capable of creating a female bachelor, and I could justify this on the grounds that its cannon because logic doesn't apply to comics. Are you really going to tell me that this is acceptable, because this is what you are arguing.

facepalm

Walls of text still can't cover-up the gaps in your logic. Your stance is practically 'When it comes to a fictional setting I debate only what can be applied to the real-life setting, and call what bypasses the established real-life laws nonsensical". You then put another horrendous comparison.

I said it once, and I'll say it again. This is not the thread to discuss comic book physics and what you find it acceptable to debate about and what not. The third time, I'm going to report you, as this is not the path I want this thread to be going. It's not the other posters' fault that you couldn't backup your arguments, and now switch to this walls of the text blabbering about how Superman reacting at FTL is unacceptable. Stop.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Moving faster than light is physically impossible but not logically impossible. Same for speaking at super speeds. It seems you are not applying proper suspension of disbelief.

He seems to not be applying logic itself, while at the same trying to make arguments concerning it. Quite ironic, really. Anyhow, like I said, this part of the discussion is done as it has no place here.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Moving faster than light is physically impossible but not logically impossible. Same for speaking at super speeds. It seems you are not applying proper suspension of disbelief.

No but Sound is , by definition.