Darth sideous (prime) Vs. Luke Skywalker(prime)

This is Darth Sideous with all the knowledge and understanding he had gained up to the point where he died in DE. On top of this by the force itself his physical form has been restored to its physical prime.

He is to Fight Luke Skywalker in one versus one combat to the death, the battle will take place in a vast open landscape. For Luke Skywalker it is his current incarnation with his physical physique restored to its physical prime, then again not sure if that makes any difference either way.

Both are determined to kill the other for in their eyes what is the greater good.

On paper, Sidious.

I wanna see how many Sidious accolytes come in here and torture the thread starter in nerd-speak for even thinking Sids could lose...

In sheer power, Luke definitely possesses the advantage; as evident by his ability to manipulate the gravity of [artificially created] miniature Black Holes that was potent enough to drag a moon out of its orbit. Other displays of power include manipulating light rays on a planetary scale, rooting himself in the heart of the Force to the point where it's said that not even a Black Hole could have moved him, and being able to compete in a sheer Force contest with someone who drew power from trillions of Force Sensitive creatures (UnuThul).

Sidious' ability to cloud the perceptions of the Jedi Order remains completely undefined; we don't know whether he required the use of power enhancing apparatus, whether he needed to spend time in deep meditation gathering Force energies, or whether he might have needed to set up a complex ritual to achieve such a result. As I said, completely undefined, meaning it cannot be used to support Sidious' level of power at any given moment in the context of a close combat battle situation.

He hasn't displayed a level of control with the Force Storm that would suggest he would be capable of summoning one and directing it against his opponent in the middle of a close combat situation without destroying himself in the process. That he conjures them up using a complex ritual where he manipulates energy around his body and indirectly summons them would mean that they are not indicative of his regular level of ability either, so like the above feat as well, entirely worthless to bring up.

Originally posted by Gideon
On paper, Sidious.

but in reality?

Originally posted by Welkin Gunther
Sidious' ability to cloud the perceptions of the Jedi Order remains completely undefined; we don't know whether he required the use of power enhancing apparatus, whether he needed to spend time in deep meditation gathering Force energies, or whether he might have needed to set up a complex ritual to achieve such a result. As I said, completely undefined, meaning it cannot be used to support Sidious' level of power at any given moment in the context of a close combat battle situation.

He hasn't displayed a level of control with the Force Storm that would suggest he would be capable of summoning one and directing it against his opponent in the middle of a close combat situation without destroying himself in the process. That he conjures them up using a complex ritual where he manipulates energy around his body and indirectly summons them would mean that they are not indicative of his regular level of ability either, so like the above feat as well, entirely worthless to bring up.

Your claim that Sidious may have used a force enhancing apparatus does not work at all. I can easily say Luke may have been carrying a force enhancing gem in his pocket. You see how that works?

Again, well said, Sixty-six.

In sheer power, Luke possesses the advantage insofar that his potential (read: latent Force connection) is superior to Palpatine’s. But so was Anakin’s and, presumably, those of Leia, Jacen, and Galen Marek. In terms of control, there can be no question that he is still, on paper, inferior to the Emperor.

As for Nebaris’s claims, I’d like to see the source for the number given to the Colony’s population. Moreover, I’d like to point out that the fact that simply because UnuThul could draw power from a great number of people is irrelevant; where is the evidence that he maintained a great control, discipline, and technique over such power? There is nothing to suggest that he had anything other than a particularly high level of Force reserves, which would make him no different from Anakin Skywalker, who wasn’t a notable master of the Force in any aspect.

As regards Palpatine’s ability to cloud the perceptions of the Jedi Order, Sixty-six makes a fantastic point. You don’t know what preparations that Darth Nihilus made for his world draining or removing his ship from a gravity well, but you’re more than prepared to make a stand that it is an accolade for great power; Palpatine led two highly active lives as the Supreme Chancellor and Dark Lord of the Sith, respectively. He strategized the course of an entire war, manipulated the politics of both factions, and arranged for their rises to military power. He was not, logically, someone who was characterized by an overabundance of time; the darkening in the Force is made clear to always be present throughout Palpatine’s reign and getting stronger—Labyrinth of Evil and Revenge of the Sith make it clear that his very presence is enough to turn the currents of the Force either “arctic” or “dark,” as experienced by both Yoda and Mace respectively.

He is able to single handedly overpower the senses, connection, and powers of the Jedi Order—ten thousand active Jedi Knights—across an entire galaxy. It’s a feat of unparalleled ability.

And, lastly, as regards the ability to conjure Force Storms, Palpatine summons them with applications of rage, anger, and latent Force energy; in short, nothing that is more or less required to cast street-grade Force lightning. It is wholly indicative in his power and is never regarded, by any source, to be ritualistic in nature. You’ve been espousing that for years, which is interesting, given how Bane’s “lulz planetary manipulation!!1!” is supposedly indicative of his power.

We’ve had a fun, peaceful time debating so far, Nebaris, which is a fresh and welcome change. But if you’re keen on using double standards, I’ll just put you on ignore.

I thought Sithisis makes it clear that Sidious does use something for his galaxy-wide force-blocker. Unless you can figure out what else that ritual was, because that's what it seemed to do to me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought Sithisis makes it clear that Sidious does use something for his galaxy-wide force-blocker. Unless you can figure out what else that ritual was, because that's what it seemed to do to me.

According to the Ultimate Visual Guide, the sithisis rituals were used to radiate unnerving ripples through the force that caused anxiety among the jedi. It also helped to increase Anakin's lust for power. It said nothing about it being used to cloud their perception or vision.

You didn’t read my essay at all, did you? 🙁

The comic Sithisis depicts Palpatine “[conducting] Sith rituals on Coruscant that radiated unnerving ripples in the Force, which caused anxiety among most Jedi throughout the galaxy, but also served to increase Anakin Skywalker’s hunger for power” (the Ultimate Visual Guide). This particular feat is interesting to note because it is one of the major ones that puts the scope and scale of Palpatine’s powers into proper perspective; in short, the ritual he conducts manipulates the Force on a galactic scale—affecting the thousands of active Jedi across the galaxy—including the powerful and noted Jedi Grand Master Yoda.

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Why don't you just petition for a permanent account? They can ban you if you act like an idiot, but really, it's pointless at the moment. Ask them to give you another shot. It's clear you want back here.

OK that's the second time KMC just messed up my response so I'm a tiny bit angry and almost in tears so I'm gonna keep this one brief and focus on the main issues:

1. Regardless of what the ritual in Sithisis was actually used for, it clearly illustrates that when Palpatine feels the need or convenience for such methods as I was describing, he'll take them, regardless of what you may say about his character or how much time he had on his hands. As such, you cannot use such explanations to suggest that what he performs under completely undefined circumstances wasn't using such methods. As such you cannot suggest that the feat is indicative of his regular level of unaided ability, and as such it loses all of its value in being brought up.

2. Luke's displays are testament to both his power and control; control is essentially the application of power on a small scale; manipulating Dovin Basals would obviously require an absolutely astronomical level of power, and for that power to be applied on an [X-Wing?] sized object, which would require an absolutely astronomical level of control.

3. Ignoring undefined situations and circumstances, when we have seen Sidious perform under his own level of ability, he isn't anywhere near as immediately or overwhelmingly as powerful as Luke has displayed himself to be; both himself and Yoda display themselves to be extremely powerful relative to their peers and inferiors in their own era, but they don't reach a level of titanic ability that characters such as Luke, Bane or Kyp do. This isn't subject to discussion; in the fight of their lives the best they can produce is small scale telekinesis; Yoda himself literally struggled with stopping the fall of a single pillar in his battle against Dooku, and the only time Palpatine can be said to perform anything that rivals what we see from these people, he does so outside of a battle situation where we have no idea as to the circumstances surrounding how he does it.

Originally posted by Gideon
Why don't you just petition for a permanent account? They can ban you if you act like an idiot, but really, it's pointless at the moment. Ask them to give you another shot. It's clear you want back here.

So much. 🙁

As for the Force Storm, as Palpatine himself describes it, it pretty adequately meets the criteria for a ritual:

"When the Force is sensed and moved by emotion, from the very centre of the body, and meditated from the lower vital centers of the being, it acts with the destructive power of a storm, and the savagery of a beast.

I have learned to meditate Anger and Will with clarity and precision, and I have learned to open the hidden reservoirs of dark side Power.

Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released-the energies of the dark side of the Force." – The Essential Guide to the Force, Pg 179.

As is quite clear, he is not directly summoning these Force Storms; the application is entirely indirect, that relies on the movement of Force energy around the body in a very precise, organised manner that unleashes these portals of energy. It is entirely ritualistic, and absolutely not indicative of his regular level of ability given the indirect nature of the ability where he's forced to rely on strict method rather than his own direct level of power.

So Welkin Gunther...who are you supporting? And why is this an argument? Everybody thinks that Luke > Sidious!!!!

I’m not going to resort to unoriginal attacks on your reading comprehension, Nebaris, but you haven’t been reading. The circumstances of Sithisis cannot be used as a means of accrediting Palpatine’s blunting of Jedi sensitivity; Yoda and Mace are each able to experience Palpatine’s affect on the Force with clarity in Labyrinth of Evil and Revenge of the Sith respectively. Yoda’s musings conclude that the Force turned “arctic” and Mace noted that the Force “shimmered with darkness.” That the shroud of the dark side grows stronger “on a day to day basis” corresponds with the statements provided by the Complete Visual Dictionary (“Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unexpecting,”) and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia that the nebulous flux in the Force “culminated” with Palpatine’s ascendance.

And even if you were to ignore that, the Revenge of the Sith novel makes it clear: it directly confirms that Palpatine himself is not the source of the darkness—but the darkness itself.

Vague notations of Luke manipulating a black hole won’t overrule this evidence. But, unlike some, I’m not one to discard it entirely. Post the relevant quotes or the entire passage.

You’re right, this isn’t subject to discussion: Palpatine’s power and status amongst his peers is incontrovertible. He is the most knowledgeable, accomplished, and powerful Sith that has been seen in the mythos; an objective analysis of his feats conclude that he is considerably more powerful than either Kyp Durron or Darth Bane, and is more consistently impressive than Luke Skywalker.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia notes that Force Storms are created through “disturbances in the Force.” Palpatine is able to make a controlled, regulated disturbance to conjure one and then command its intent: he was able to manipulate a Force Storm with enough precision so as to spare Luke Skywalker and deposit him, unharmed, into a dungeon ship. And when he wanted to kill, he used it to obliterate a New Republic fleet. As to whether or not he creates them, for all intents and purposes, he does. To quote the Dark Empire Sourcebook : “This power allows [Palpatine] to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force.”

The fact that Palpatine, in the very statement you quote, mentions “unlocking reservoirs of power” is conclusive enough: it is of his own ability.

We won’t argue this particular point again, Nebaris.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So Welkin Gunther...who are you supporting? And why is this an argument? Everybody thinks that Luke > Sidious!!!!

Judging from the shit that's been heaped on you since that Earth vs. Empire thread, I'd say everyone here thinks you're about as stupid as they come.

Does that make it true?

Originally posted by Gideon
Judging from the shit that's been heaped on you since that Earth vs. Empire thread, I'd say everyone here thinks you're about as stupid as they come.

Does that make it true?

Shit? Now even Lucien AGREES that Earth wins!