Re: Achilles+Myrmidons vs. Leonidas+Spartans
Achilles is [probably] a few notches above Leonidas in skill. And please, no one start with the "he's invulnerable", he wasn't invulnerable/magical in that adaptation.
Spartan to Spartan, I'd side with Leonidas' men, they were near super-human in portrayal.
So I'd say Leonidas' team wins, though with very few men surviving.
While it is true that Achilles>Leonidas fairly well. Spartans(300's potrayals)>>>Myrmidons.
It was blatantly stated throughout the movie that when Achilles didn't fight the morale and overall sucess of the Myrmidons dropped tremendously. Whereas Spartans will fight just as good if they are or aren't fighting alongside Leonidas. One could even make the argument that Leonidas isn't even the best of the Spartans. Stelios, anyone.
Basically if on a scale from 1-5, Achilles is a 5. Leonidas and his Spartans are 4's, and the Myrmidons are 2's.
Originally posted by XanatosForever
If that's the case, considering that Achilles actually is a part of this bout, shouldn't the morale bonus boost the Myrmidons to equal level with the Spartans, at least?
Bingo
Yeah, by that logic the MYrmidon should be at least "4" while fighting alongside Achilles. Look, the Myrmidon use the SAME exact training and tactics as the Spartans. They are at the very least on equal standings with the Spartans as far as skill goes...,pound for pound. The Myrmidons also, however, have far more experience. Where as the Spartans only fight for Sparta. The Myrmidon fight for Achilles and he is a mercenary of sorts.
Achilles' men really weren't all that special, compare movie feat to movie feat, the Spartans are far superior.
Achilles' men fought Trojan soldiers and they had a large army of other Greeks fighting with them. The Spartans were just 300 and they were alone, except when twenty or-so of the Arcadians jumped in to help in one fight. First battle, they didn't lose a single guy and they killed hundreds(thousands?).
Originally posted by XanatosForeverThere morale will be at a high but there still very inferior to the Spartans. The Spartans in 300 were incredible as a team. So were Myrmidons when they stormed the beach. But Achilles fights best when he fights solo. The only person that can compete with the Spartans is Achilles. Period. Clearly in 300, the Spartans are peak human and have superior feats. No the Myrmidons are nowhere near Spartans in skill. But at the same time the Spartans aren't on the level of Achilles skill either.
If that's the case, considering that Achilles actually is a part of this bout, shouldn't the morale bonus boost the Myrmidons to equal level with the Spartans, at least?
Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
BingoYeah, by that logic the MYrmidon should be at least "4" while fighting alongside Achilles. Look, the Myrmidon use the SAME exact training and tactics as the Spartans. They are at the very least on equal standings with the Spartans as far as skill goes...,pound for pound. The Myrmidons also, however, have far more experience. Where as the Spartans only fight for Sparta. The Myrmidon fight for Achilles and he is a mercenary of sorts.
I don't see why the Myrmidon have more experience given that the Spartans are trained in battle from the age of 9 in the agoge.
The Spartans also fought against far more enemies and as individuals, were shown to have far more fighting skill than individual Myrmidon.
Granted, Achilles has more ability than any of the Spartans.
I do, however, think it would be funny to see the captain from the 300 fighting Eudorus from the Myrmidon given that they were both played by the same person.
Originally posted by Robtard
Achilles' men really weren't all that special, compare movie feat to movie feat, the Spartans are far superior.Achilles' men fought Trojan soldiers and they had a large army of other Greeks fighting with them. The Spartans were just 300 and they were alone, except when twenty or-so of the Arcadians jumped in to help in one fight. First battle, they didn't lose a single guy and they killed hundreds(thousands?).
It was only because of the Bottleneck and Xerxes pride that they were able to last so long. On an open battlefield...,they would have fallen as quickly and easily as they did on the last day when Xerxes found out how to flank them.
Originally posted by jaden101
I don't see why the Myrmidon have more experience given that the Spartans are trained in battle from the age of 9 in the agoge.The Spartans also fought against far more enemies and as individuals, were shown to have far more fighting skill than individual Myrmidon.
Granted, Achilles has more ability than any of the Spartans.
I do, however, think it would be funny to see the captain from the 300 fighting Eudorus from the Myrmidon given that they were both played by the same person.
I only say the Myrmidon were much more experienced because, like the Spartans, they were bred for battle. Unlike the Spartans, however, they fought with Achilles and Achilles went from battle to battle, fighting different armies with different fighting abilities and tactics. Where as the Spartans only fought when Sparta was threatened. you're right though, there is nothing in the movies that solidly states this but is there anything in the movie's that solidly shows that one side, whether it be the Spartans or the Myrmidon are any more skilled than the other (other than camera and editing techniques). The Myrmidon could have been made to look more impressive than the Spartans if the director decided to film Troy in slow motion, too.
I stil contest that it was the bottleneck and Xerxes pride that allowed the Spartans to last as long as they did.
Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
I only say the Myrmidon were much more experienced because, like the Spartans, they were bred for battle. Unlike the Spartans, however, they fought with Achilles and Achilles went from battle to battle, fighting different armies with different fighting abilities and tactics. Where as the Spartans only fought when Sparta was threatened. you're right though, there is nothing in the movies that solidly states this but is there anything in the movie's that solidly shows that one side, whether it be the Spartans or the Myrmidon are any more skilled than the other (other than camera and editing techniques). The Myrmidon could have been made to look more impressive than the Spartans if the director decided to film Troy in slow motion, too.I stil contest that it was the bottleneck and Xerxes pride that allowed the Spartans to last as long as they did.
The bottleneck was part of the Spartan tactics and, if anything, shows their ability in that regard. It wasn't a fluke that they fought there. They knew they would be slaughtered in open field combat.
Sparta, in real terms, did a lot more than just fight when Sparta was threatened. They were a state based on warmongering. Leonidas also lived during a time of great unrest in Greece, where battles were constantly fought between Sparta and other areas of Greece. Sparta headed the Peloponesian league which eventually conquered Greece and united it under 1 banner. Remember, Agamemnon and Menelaus from Troy were Spartan kings who conquered Greece.
RE: The Skill of the Myrmidons
First off, at the time of the Mycenaeans (Agamemnon, Trojan War), the Spartans already existed. Remember Menelaus? The Greek husband of Helen? He was the king of Sparta.
Point 1- The Spartans were present in the Trojan War.
Interestingly enough, Menelaus was a skilled warrior but he is not listed as one of the best Greek champions in the Trojan War. The three best champions of the Greeks would be Ajax, Diomedes and ACHILLES.
Point 2- The king of the Spartans during the Trojan War was not listed as one of the three best Greek Champions.
The thing is, when the actual Iliad is read, it is clearly stated that the Myrmidons were THE BEST warriors Greece had to offer.
Point 3- As good as the Spartans were, THE MYRMIDONS WERE BETTER.
Now one could argue about the Dark Ages and how Sparta really got going only after the Mycenaean Age and the Trojan War. Yay, they beat the Persians with only 300 men! Then 30-60 years later they're beaten (really just slapped aside) by Alexander the Great and the Macedonians. Keep in mind, this was after Sparta "won" against Athens in the Pelopponesian War. At this point in history, the Myrmidons only remained in legends but the Spartans were supposedly in their prime. And yet Alexander steamrolled over Greece.
Now back to the Trojan War. The Trojans were a mighty enemy since it took all the armies of Greece 9 YEARS to defeat them. Achilles is the leader of the Myrmidons which means if he doesn't fight, they don't fight. This is why the Greeks (including the Spartans) almost lost. At one point, the Greeks lost their camp and were on the beach fighting for their lives when Patroclus (Achilles' homeboy) and the Myrmidons join the battle. This re-enforcement is enough to push the Trojan ARMY out of the camp. The next day, with Achilles and his Myrmidons in the lead, the Greeks are able to push the Trojan army (the army they were retreating from the day before) off the beach, back from the plain, all the way back to the gates of Troy. What was the difference between that day and the day before? Achilles fought. The Myrmidons fought.
On to the leaders.
Leonidas is the better man personality-wise. In short, he cared about people. Achilles is a spoiled brat.
However, when we look at battleprowess, Achilles wins. Achilles, even though he wasn't immortal, was good enough in battle to be deemed immortal. So the Spartans were supposedly descended from Hercules, a demigod. Achilles IS a demigod (at least in his skill in battle).