Telepaths of theX-men Hierarchy

Originally posted by Chimier
OK, Jean is not A PART of the Phoenix, she IS the Phoenix. And her feats not only require POWER, but skill. The fact that she carried Xavier's mind inside her own, broke it up into millions of fragments and planted a little memory of his in every person on earth and then reassembled his consciousness and put it back in his bodywhile suffering from septacemia is more SKILL than RAW POWER. Heck, when Emma and Jean were in Xavier's mind trying to free him from Cassandra, only Jean actually got through, unlike Emma, who got stuck. Jean has sent a telepathic signal from the moon before (she didn't have access to the Force at this time), has tracked an electronic brain (didn't have access to the force), dumping the equivalent of the encyclopedia into Cecilia Reyes' mind in seconds (no access to Force), or simultaneously accessing Cable's telekinesis to change them physically and then telepathically making them completely unrecognizable to even the closest family and friends. It was said their souls were different and that any sense of who they were was supressed. The level of change was so drastic that even sensors couldn't detect they were mutants. Jean was Phoenix in name only at this time. She even separated Apocalypse's spirit from Cyclops and she was Phoenix in NAME only at this time also. The Phoenix only returned to her when it recreated the telekinetic abilities that Jean gave to Psylocke. Heck, in the Onslaught saga, Onslaught tried to get to her inner connection to the Phoenix but he couldn't get through her psychic shields.
The fact of the matter is Jean is not just more powerful than Emma, she is more skilled. The Phoenix is not a power boost, but Jean's true psionic potential. She is not a part of it, she is 100% Phoenix (as said in Endsong). Even Xavier commented that what Jean did to his memories shouldn't be possible for an Omega-Level Mutant. At the end of the day, the feats are all Jean, Phoenix or no Phoenix (except from the Jean clone in the 70s). While Emma's SKILL is more capitalized on than her actual POWER, the opposite is done for Jean, yet it by no means makes her less skilled than Emma as there isn't a thing Emma can do that Jean can't.

100% correct. Prove this wrong.

Originally posted by Ryonslaught
Power

1: Phoenix
2: Nate Gray, Cable, Stryfe
3: Legion, Exodus, Kid Omega
4: Professor X, Cassandra Nova, Shadow King

Skill

1: Professor X
2: Emma Frost
3: Jean Gray
4: Psylocke

this seems like a accurate list, Emma is a self taught telepath like Xavier
while Jean is taught by Xavier
and we've never seen her do anything telepathically (without pheonix) that would/should lead anyone to think she's on par with Emma in terms of skill.

While jean was concentrating on throwing objects with her mind Emma was busy rustling around peoples minds and doing god knows what in the interest of "learning" jean on the other hand respects peoples boundaries and even if Charles taught her something, if she thought it unethical she would not do it so she has quite a bit of theory knowledge while Emma has practical.

another thing, why do people say Jean walked all over Emma during Morison's run is beyond me!? Hell i was impressed she managed to break free thanks to her skill in the face of all Jeans rage and power more than once!

With Phoenix jean beats everyone in creation! Hell she knew instinctively how to "save a universe" without being taught so once the phoenix is involved she will have skill to trump anyone!!

In the end i don't see how practical it is for jean (without phoenix) to be compared to Emma in the skill department it's just illogical!!!

Your ranking is on the right track and I agree with the whole Jean-Emma thing.

I would rank the telepaths in the following way:

Raw Power/Potential

1. Phoenix
2. Phoenix spawn - Nate Grey/Fully powered Cable/Rachel Grey/Stryfe etc.
3. Legion/Kid Omega/Cassandra Nova
4. Xavier/Shadow King
5. Exodus/Moondragon/The Five-in-One
6. Emma Frost/Mr. Sinister (Emma may be SLIGHTLY higher than Sinister)
7. The Three-In-One/Psylocke/Oracle/Selene
8. Mastermind Daughters - Regan and Martinique
9. A single Cuckoo
10. Sage/Blindfold/Shortpack

Skill/Finesse/Experience

1. Cassandra Nova/Xavier/Shadow King
2. Elias Bogan/Emma Frost (although I think Elias Bogan is SLIGHTLY higher than Emma. Just slightly)
3. Mr. Sinister/Exodus/Nate Grey
4. Moondragon
5. Classic Jean Grey (Marvel girl - sans Phoenix)
6. Psylocke/The Stepford Cuckoos/Selene
7. Rachel Grey/Kid Omega
8. Mastermind Daughters (Martinque and Regan)
9. Shortpack, Sage
10. Blindfold

Now here's where Emma ranks pretty high. Although I was tempted to rank her in Tier 3, with Sinister and Exodus, and give Bogan tier 2 all to himself. But Bogan doesn't have as many feats as Emma does, but the ones he does have are all very impressive IMO.

Originally posted by Glorificus
Your ranking is on the right track and I agree with the whole Jean-Emma thing.

I would rank the telepaths in the following way:

Raw Power/Potential

1. Phoenix
2. Phoenix spawn - Nate Grey/Fully powered Cable/Rachel Grey/Stryfe etc.
3. Legion/Kid Omega/Cassandra Nova
4. Xavier/Shadow King
5. Exodus/Moondragon/The Five-in-One
6. Emma Frost/Mr. Sinister (Emma may be SLIGHTLY higher than Sinister)
7. The Three-In-One/Psylocke/Oracle/Selene
8. Mastermind Daughters - Regan and Martinique
9. A single Cuckoo
10. Sage/Blindfold/Shortpack

Skill/Finesse/Experience

1. Cassandra Nova/Xavier/Shadow King
2. Elias Bogan/Emma Frost (although I think Elias Bogan is SLIGHTLY higher than Emma. Just slightly)
3. Mr. Sinister/Exodus/Nate Grey
4. Moondragon
5. Classic Jean Grey (Marvel girl - sans Phoenix)
6. Psylocke/The Stepford Cuckoos/Selene
7. Rachel Grey/Kid Omega
8. Mastermind Daughters (Martinque and Regan)
9. Shortpack, Sage
10. Blindfold

Now here's where Emma ranks pretty high. Although I was tempted to rank her in Tier 3, with Sinister and Exodus, and give Bogan tier 2 all to himself. But Bogan doesn't have as many feats as Emma does, but the ones he does have are all very impressive IMO.

Well I can respect this listing it seems for the most part correct though I think alotta times Jean's telepathic skills are over looked because she mostly relys on her telekinesis. But if people went back and read lets say NXM she has some pretty goods telepathic feats. Also I just read scans of her projecting her mind around the world to meet with storm in Xtreme Xmen.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
Well I can respect this listing it seems for the most part correct though I think alotta times Jean's telepathic skills are over looked because she mostly relys on her telekinesis. But if people went back and read lets say NXM she has some pretty goods telepathic feats. Also I just read scans of her projecting her mind around the world to meet with storm in Xtreme Xmen.

1. Jean Grey was manifesting the Phoenix Force in New X-Men.

2. Jean is shown using Cerebra to communicate with Storm in that issue you referring to.

No Cosmic intervention ala Phoenix Force.

Raw Power
Franklin Richards
Cable/X-Man
Legion
Onslaught
Cassandra Nova

Skill
Cable
Onslaught/Xavier
Emma
Moondragon
Cassandra Cain

I have said this before and I will say it again. Cable is more experience then just about any known marvel telepath period. He has bin properly brought up since infancy, on how to use his mutant gifts by first Jean, followed by a dedicated clan of telepaths. Only to have his progression overlooked by Blaquesmith. Niether Emma nor Xavier can beat that kind of upbringing.

Moondragon?

Originally posted by celestialbodies
Well I can respect this listing it seems for the most part correct though I think alotta times Jean's telepathic skills are over looked because she mostly relys on her telekinesis. But if people went back and read lets say NXM she has some pretty goods telepathic feats. Also I just read scans of her projecting her mind around the world to meet with storm in Xtreme Xmen.

Originally posted by wannabe
No one denies Jeans formidable telepathic skills, but there e are simply some psions who are just a tad better.
Btw.: Projecting herself unaided across the globe is clearly a psionic strength feat, not one of particular skill. 😉

The feat didn't happen in any case. Using Cerebra to project ones thoughts across the globe is not a big a deal.

I mean Emma did a global broadcast without it in UXM #500.

http://comicbookscriptarchive.com/goods/mattfraction/UNCX500.pdf

Originally posted by Glorificus
Your ranking is on the right track and I agree with the whole Jean-Emma thing.

I would rank the telepaths in the following way:

Raw Power/Potential

1. Phoenix
2. Phoenix spawn - Nate Grey/Fully powered Cable/Rachel Grey/Stryfe etc.
3. Legion/Kid Omega/Cassandra Nova
4. Xavier/Shadow King
5. Exodus/Moondragon/The Five-in-One
6. Emma Frost/Mr. Sinister (Emma may be SLIGHTLY higher than Sinister)
7. The Three-In-One/Psylocke/Oracle/Selene
8. Mastermind Daughters - Regan and Martinique
9. A single Cuckoo
10. Sage/Blindfold/Shortpack

Skill/Finesse/Experience

1. Cassandra Nova/Xavier/Shadow King
2. Elias Bogan/Emma Frost (although I think Elias Bogan is SLIGHTLY higher than Emma. Just slightly)
3. Mr. Sinister/Exodus/Nate Grey
4. Moondragon
5. Classic Jean Grey (Marvel girl - sans Phoenix)
6. Psylocke/The Stepford Cuckoos/Selene
7. Rachel Grey/Kid Omega
8. Mastermind Daughters (Martinque and Regan)
9. Shortpack, Sage
10. Blindfold

Now here's where Emma ranks pretty high. Although I was tempted to rank her in Tier 3, with Sinister and Exodus, and give Bogan tier 2 all to himself. But Bogan doesn't have as many feats as Emma does, but the ones he does have are all very impressive IMO.

Why is Emma above Mr. Sinister? I can't really differentiate between Emma Frost, Exodus, Stryfe and Mr. Sinister. They seem to be on par in telepathy.

Originally posted by pinksushi1
Why is Emma above Mr. Sinister?

Originally posted by pinksushi1
I can't really differentiate between Emma Frost, Exodus, Stryfe and Mr. Sinister. They seem to be on par in telepathy.

Originally posted by wannabe
She simply has more feats!

I can't tell about Stryfe, cause besides Rachel and Cable i cant stand the Phoenix Spawn, but since Exodus clearly has the better strength feats and she still managed to be his equal in psi-battle, she must be his superior in skill.

Didn't Mr. Sinister almost completely take over Xavier's mind? Also, Sinister has easily defeated Jean Grey on the astral plane before, so.....
And Emma Frost hasn't.

Originally posted by pinksushi1
Didn't Mr. Sinister almost completely take over Xavier's mind? Also, Sinister has easily defeated Jean Grey on the astral plane before, so.....
And Emma Frost hasn't.

I could be wrong and probably I'm, but wasn't the time that Sinister defeated Jean on the astral plane, was when she lacked her Telepathy or are you talking about another time?

You might be right actually. That is probably around the time that Stryfe telepathically controlled both Cyclops and Jean in X-Cutioner's Song and I am sure that Jean did not have much of her telepathic powers at that time either. Still though, in Messiah Complex, Emma had to concentrate and use Cerebro to keep Mr. Sinister's mind out of the X-Men's minds.

Originally posted by pinksushi1
You might be right actually. That is probably around the time that Stryfe telepathically controlled both Cyclops and Jean in X-Cutioner's Song and I am sure that Jean did not have much of her telepathic powers at that time either. Still though, in Messiah Complex, Emma had to concentrate and use Cerebro to keep Mr. Sinister's mind out of the X-Men's minds.

Emma did not use Cerebro (or Cerebra) in Messiah Complex. She probably had to concentrate though, that would seem to be useful in a telepathic battle.

Originally posted by nikbackm
Emma did not use Cerebro (or Cerebra) in Messiah Complex. She probably had to concentrate though, that would seem to be useful in a telepathic battle.

And that is why Emma and Sinister are on par in telepathy.