Originally posted by Janus Marius
Plo Koon sees your heresy.
See? I try to keep it on topic because YOU are being off topic.
Originally posted by Gideon
Actually, I'm not sure...Eh, yes and no. Technology has likely improved and even a couple of years after Palpatine's death, there were military overhauls that saw enormous reduction in manpower and greater efficiency on ships. However, I'm not certain that Krayt's Empire has anything that is militarily more lethal than anything Palpatine has. For example, the Pellaeon-class Star Destroyer is the most powerful ship at Krayt's disposal, and it's no match for anything like a Super Star Destroyer or (God help everyone) the Eclipse.
Palpatine and Tarkin have a metric shitton of ridiculously capable superweapons that none of the factions can compete with in terms of destructive capability. IIRC, Daala whipped out one of Tarkin's old toys against Caedus after Pellaeon was killed and it was some sort of laser beam that obliterated ship after ship after ship after ship.
And she had, like, three vessels.
Not that it matters. The Confederacy fielded two Malevolence-class destroyers, "millions of warships" (Complete Cross Sections, and a quintillion (or quadrillion?) droids. Not to mention they have a psychotic general who isn't particular about using biological warfare.
The Republic is, according to the Clone Wars Campaign Guide, for all purposes militarily equal to the Confederacy, though presumably not nearly as large. But the quality of their ships and resources are much, much higher.
The Rebellion has some particularly handy resources, which includes the Bothan Spynet.
The Yuuzhan Vong's dovin basals, ground troops, and ships are pretty impressive.
And the Galactic Alliance is a less militarized version of the Empire proper.
In all seriousness, none of these factions are as militarily impressive. Palpatine's Empire was referred to as an "unprecedented" military build up and "the largest military in history." Particularly the Good Guys, which includes the Alliance, are relatively downgraded.
But this is spite.
Actually, it can be argued that one of these factions alone could solo the Empire IF I were to take away their quadrupal troop advantage.
The ROTJ Rebels could, and anyone that watched the OT should know that.
The GFFA and Krayt's Empire MIGHT be able to. Caedus considered clone war era and even the old GE's ships to be "antiques" and a "flying junkyard". This shows how far technology advanced (which is wierd: in the 2000 years between Revan and the movies technology DID advance, but not nearly at the rate that you would think).
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Actually, it can be argued that one of these factions alone could solo the Empire IF I were to take away their quadrupal troop advantage.The ROTJ Rebels could, and anyone that watched the OT should know that.
The GFFA and Krayt's Empire MIGHT be able to. Caedus considered clone war era and even the old GE's ships to be "antiques" and a "flying junkyard". This shows how far technology advanced (which is wierd: in the 2000 years between Revan and the movies technology DID advance, but not nearly at the rate that you would think).
Did... you just say that... one of these factions could "solo" the Empire?
lol...
Originally posted by Gideon
Did... you just say that... one of these factions could "solo" the Empire?lol...
Sorry, I'm wrong. I'm sorry for NOT saying "it can be argued that..." and I forgot that the Empire did NOT get soloed and NO faction in this thread beat the Empire... and the Empire did NOT get defeated...
Your sarcasm is misplaced. Fortunately, I'm here to correct ego trips.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Sorry, I'm wrong.
You might want to consider putting that in your signature. Or getting it tattooed. It's likely the most applicable statement you'll ever come across.
Just a thought.
I'm sorry for NOT saying "it can be argued that..."
Apology #1 accepted, jackass. Because it really can't be argued.
and I forgot that the Empire did NOT get soloed
Apology #2 accepted, jackass. Because the Empire really didn't get soloed.
and NO faction in this thread beat the Empire...
Apology #3 accepted, jackass. Because you're right, no faction in this thread could beat the Empire. Not in a strict military engagement. Let's run through the list:
1.) The Clone Wars-era Republic fielded a vastly smaller military and inferior technology. Palpatine had to be relatively conservative; after all, the Republic had to put on a good front as an arbiter of peace and justice.
2.) The Confederacy fielded a comparable military in size only. But the Republic itself outclassed the CIS ship-to-ship, as Star Wars Complete Cross Sections testifies. Look up the figures: they're ridiculous. Quality-wise, the Confederacy was no match for the Republic, which is in turn no match for the Empire.
3.) The RotJ-era Rebels couldn't compete with the Empire on even footing... or did you not watch the OT? There's a reason, jackass, that they are fighting guerilla warfare. There's a reason they were getting the shit kicked out of them at the Battle of Endor. The only reason Palpatine died was because of Vader, and if you've actually read the Return of the Jedi novelization, it makes it very clear: Palpatine's death diffused the dark side to such an extent that it caused chaos and confusion among the Imperial ranks, causing them to make tactical blunders throughout the entire engagement.
Oh, and by the way? Palpatine would later return several years later to reconquer the galaxy in less than a year. Even after the years of victories, of Imperial screw ups, and even treason (I refer you to the warlordism that plagued the Empire after Palpatine died), the Empire was still more powerful than the New Republic.
4.) The Galactic Alliance is vastly undermilitarized, hence why they were threatened so easily by both the Confederation and the Imperial Remnant. Yes, the "broken shadow of the former Empire" was still able to compete with the Galactic Alliance.
5.) The Yuuzhan Vong deliberately avoided waging war against the Empire. Nom Anor, a Yuuzhan Vong agent, testified that if they had to face the Empire at the height of its power, they would have been utterly crushed. They waited for the Empire to lose most of its power, and chose to tackle the New Republic instead.
6.) Krayt's Empire lacks the superweapons and, given the state of the galaxy with Fel's Empire-in-exile and the remnant of the Galactic Alliance, his military isn't all encompassing or the end all be all.
Once again, Palpatine created the largest military in galactic history with an unprecedented military build up. It's canon.
and the Empire did NOT get defeated...
Not by those pesky rebels, no.
Originally posted by Gideon
Your sarcasm is misplaced. Fortunately, I'm here to correct ego trips.You might want to consider putting that in your signature. Or getting it tattooed. It's likely the most applicable statement you'll ever come across.
Just a thought.
Apology #1 accepted, jackass. Because it really can't be argued.
Apology #2 accepted, jackass. Because the Empire really didn't get soloed.
Apology #3 accepted, jackass. Because you're right, no faction in this thread could beat the Empire. Not in a strict military engagement. Let's run through the list:
1.) The Clone Wars-era Republic fielded a vastly smaller military and inferior technology. Palpatine had to be relatively conservative; after all, the Republic had to put on a good front as an arbiter of peace and justice.
2.) The Confederacy fielded a comparable military in size only. But the Republic itself outclassed the CIS ship-to-ship, as Star Wars Complete Cross Sections testifies. Look up the figures: they're ridiculous. Quality-wise, the Confederacy was no match for the Republic, which is in turn no match for the Empire.
3.) The RotJ-era Rebels couldn't compete with the Empire on even footing... or did you not watch the OT? There's a reason, jackass, that they are fighting guerilla warfare. There's a reason they were getting the shit kicked out of them at the Battle of Endor. The only reason Palpatine died was because of Vader, and if you've actually read the Return of the Jedi novelization, it makes it very clear: Palpatine's death diffused the dark side to such an extent that it caused chaos and confusion among the Imperial ranks, causing them to make tactical blunders throughout the entire engagement.
Oh, and by the way? Palpatine would later return several years later to reconquer the galaxy in less than a year. Even after the years of victories, of Imperial screw ups, and even treason (I refer you to the warlordism that plagued the Empire after Palpatine died), the Empire was still more powerful than the New Republic.
4.) The Galactic Alliance is vastly undermilitarized, hence why they were threatened so easily by both the Confederation and the Imperial Remnant. Yes, the "broken shadow of the former Empire" was still able to compete with the Galactic Alliance.
5.) The Yuuzhan Vong deliberately avoided waging war against the Empire. Nom Anor, a Yuuzhan Vong agent, testified that if they had to face the Empire at the height of its power, they would have been utterly crushed. They waited for the Empire to lose most of its power, and chose to tackle the New Republic instead.
6.) Krayt's Empire lacks the superweapons and, given the state of the galaxy with Fel's Empire-in-exile and the remnant of the Galactic Alliance, his military isn't all encompassing or the end all be all.
Once again, Palpatine created the largest military in galactic history with an unprecedented military build up. It's canon.
Not by those pesky rebels, no.
Gideon: please explain to me why you insult me and troll around when I haven't done anything bad to you. If you think that I'm stupid then that still gives you NO right to do this.
In fact, here you go, Jackass:
http://www.domuspublica.net/sic_transit_gloria.html
^ Read that. All of it. It's a comprehensive essay written by Publius, concerning the fall of the Galactic Empire. Everything is sourced and substantiated; it isn't speculation nor mere perception. If I may quote the concluding paragraph:
"The decline and fall of the Galactic Empire is primarily a result of its leadership. It is true that the New Republic made substantial gains against the Empire, but it is also true that its most spectacular victories had as much to do with Imperial policies and Imperial politics as with their own strategies and heroism. It is difficult to say how successful the Grand Vizier’s regency might have been; he was an experienced administrator and had governed the Empire on the Galactic Emperor’s behalf for years by the time he found himself its regent. The fall of Brentaal IV in 39 rS cannot fairly be blamed on his misgovernment (or, more accurately, that of his clone), as it was after all a deliberate act planned by his de facto prime minister, Ysanne Isard. Isard proved to be relatively capable, reorganizing the Empire and holding it more or less intact for two years before she deliberately lost Imperial Center in 42 rS (and with it, much of the Core) as part of a dangerous and risky plan to shatter the New Republic; although there was rhyme and reason behind her schemes, it remains undisputed that her policies deliberately weakened the Empire, perhaps as part of the Galactic Emperor’s plan to “prune the nest of vipers.” The Emperor’s Ruling Circle proved to be disastrous for the Empire, subjecting it to inconsistent, weak, and directionless leadership for two and a half years, during which the Empire was steadily pushed from its position at the heart of the galaxy and reduced to controlling less than a quarter, primarily in the Outer Rim Territories with some residual holdings in the Inner Rim and largely nominal territories in the Mid-Rim and Wild Space; the only success the Ruling Circle can claim was its decision to appoint Thrawn as the Empire’s shôgun. The remarkable successes of Thrawn’s War in 44 rS demonstrate that firm leadership was indeed capable of reversing the march of history, accomplishing an expansion that nearly doubled the Empire’s size in six months; the ultimate loss in Thrawn’s War was a result of Thrawn’s assassination, not of any real success on the part of the New Republic. With the return of the Galactic Emperor in 45 rS, Operation Shadow Hand reversed the losses of the past six years, seeing the Empire return to being the single overwhelming superpower of the galaxy, re-conquering vast territories and seeing the Empire once again stretch from the Core to the Outer Rim; the Galactic Emperor’s defeat had little to do with the New Republic and much to do with treachery, the Force, and sheer bad luck. Even the loss of the Galactic Emperor, Byss, and the Shadow Hand Strategy in 46 rS might not have been fatal had the surviving Imperial leadership kept their wits about them and stayed the course; rather, the most ambitious and powerful immediately abandoned the Empire and set about aggrandizing themselves instead. The Empire was left to the ineffectual management of a glorified bodyguard, an arrogant aristo, and finally, a spineless bureaucrat. When the Empire did die in early 46 rS, it did so not with a bang but with a whimper. Ambitious men and women had fought each other ruthlessly and violently to take control of the Empire, either not knowing or not caring about the devastating consequences of their struggle for power. The result was that the Empire ultimately broke its own back, cut off its own head, and fell into a grave it had dug for itself. Ambition’s debt was paid."
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Gideon: please explain to me why you insult me and troll around when I haven't done anything bad to you. If you think that I'm stupid then that still gives you NO right to do this.
Originally posted by Gideon
In fact, here you go, Jackass:http://www.domuspublica.net/sic_transit_gloria.html
^ Read that. All of it. It's a comprehensive essay written by Publius, concerning the fall of the Galactic Empire. Everything is sourced and substantiated; it isn't speculation nor mere perception. If I may quote the concluding paragraph:
"[B]The decline and fall of the Galactic Empire is primarily a result of its leadership. It is true that the New Republic made substantial gains against the Empire, but it is also true that its most spectacular victories had as much to do with Imperial policies and Imperial politics as with their own strategies and heroism.
It is difficult to say how successful the Grand Vizier’s regency might have been; he was an experienced administrator and had governed the Empire on the Galactic Emperor’s behalf for years by the time he found himself its regent. The fall of Brentaal IV in 39 rS cannot fairly be blamed on his misgovernment (or, more accurately, that of his clone), as it was after all a deliberate act planned by his de facto prime minister, Ysanne Isard. Isard proved to be relatively capable, reorganizing the Empire and holding it more or less intact for two years before she deliberately lost Imperial Center in 42 rS (and with it, much of the Core) as part of a dangerous and risky plan to shatter the New Republic; although there was rhyme and reason behind her schemes, it remains undisputed that her policies deliberately weakened the Empire, perhaps as part of the Galactic Emperor’s plan to “prune the nest of vipers.” The Emperor’s Ruling Circle proved to be disastrous for the Empire, subjecting it to inconsistent, weak, and directionless leadership for two and a half years, during which the Empire was steadily pushed from its position at the heart of the galaxy and reduced to controlling less than a quarter, primarily in the Outer Rim Territories with some residual holdings in the Inner Rim and largely nominal territories in the Mid-Rim and Wild Space; the only success the Ruling Circle can claim was its decision to appoint Thrawn as the Empire’s shôgun. The remarkable successes of Thrawn’s War in 44 rS demonstrate that firm leadership was indeed capable of reversing the march of history, accomplishing an expansion that nearly doubled the Empire’s size in six months; the ultimate loss in Thrawn’s War was a result of Thrawn’s assassination, not of any real success on the part of the New Republic. With the return of the Galactic Emperor in 45 rS, Operation Shadow Hand reversed the losses of the past six years, seeing the Empire return to being the single overwhelming superpower of the galaxy, re-conquering vast territories and seeing the Empire once again stretch from the Core to the Outer Rim; the Galactic Emperor’s defeat had little to do with the New Republic and much to do with treachery, the Force, and sheer bad luck. Even the loss of the Galactic Emperor, Byss, and the Shadow Hand Strategy in 46 rS might not have been fatal had the surviving Imperial leadership kept their wits about them and stayed the course; rather, the most ambitious and powerful immediately abandoned the Empire and set about aggrandizing themselves instead. The Empire was left to the ineffectual management of a glorified bodyguard, an arrogant aristo, and finally, a spineless bureaucrat. When the Empire did die in early 46 rS, it did so not with a bang but with a whimper. Ambitious men and women had fought each other ruthlessly and violently to take control of the Empire, either not knowing or not caring about the devastating consequences of their struggle for power. The result was that the Empire ultimately broke its own back, cut off its own head, and fell into a grave it had dug for itself. Ambition’s debt was paid." [/B]
And are you claiming that politics should not be factored into this fight, and that they losing thanks to politics somehow won't happen this time? The New Republic beat the Empire, sure it wasn't via military might but it doesn't matter HOW they won; they won. War isn't all about how many stormtroopers you have.
You are irretrievably inept. To quote Janus:
OMG slippery slope!So the exception is the rule with you? How stupid is that?
Okay, the US lost their asses against the inferior Vietnamese.
OMG they could NEVER EVER BEAT ANYONE EVER AGAIN, CIRCUMSTANCES BE DAMNED!
Seriously, do you even think about this stuff before you post?
Welcome to the world of logic, Jackass. Politics are even harder to discuss than combat. How the hell do you plan on arguing that the Empire's political deficits will cause them to collapse?
This is a versus thread. You don't take the circumstances into account and blindly assume that whatever the circumstances were in place the last time would automatically be present the next time.
Edit:
The New Republic beat the Empire, sure it wasn't via military might but it doesn't matter HOW they won; they won.
This is telling. Thank you for confirmation on just how stupid you really are.
Originally posted by Gideon
You are irretrievably inept. To quote Janus:Welcome to the world of logic, Jackass. Politics are even harder to discuss than combat. How the hell do you plan on arguing that the Empire's political deficits will cause them to collapse?
This is a versus thread. You don't take the circumstances into account and blindly assume that whatever the circumstances were in place the last time would automatically be present the next time.
Edit:
This is telling. Thank you for confirmation on just how stupid you really are.
Insults and more insults. Are you OK? Have you had a bad day? Or are you just so mad that I offended the all so cool Empire (why are you the fanboy of a fictional but still evil Empire that committed mass genocide that made Hitler look like a saint? Do you like evil tyrants?) and decide that I must pay for doing so?
Originally posted by Gideon
Eh, yes and no. Technology has likely improved and even a couple of years after Palpatine's death, there were military overhauls that saw enormous reduction in manpower and greater efficiency on ships. However, I'm not certain that Krayt's Empire has anything that is militarily more lethal than anything Palpatine has. For example, the Pellaeon-class Star Destroyer is the most powerful ship at Krayt's disposal, and it's no match for anything like a Super Star Destroyer or (God help everyone) the Eclipse.
IRC, Daala whipped out one of Tarkin's old toys against Caedus after Pellaeon was killed and it was some sort of laser beam that obliterated ship after ship after ship after ship.
The Confederacy fielded two Malevolence-class destroyers
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Krayt's empire doesn't have anything more powerful then the Imperious-class Star Destroyer (numbers built are unknown) which is basically an advanced version of the Pellaeon class (like the Imp.I to the Imp. II) I give that they aren't more powerful then super star destroyers possessed by the GE. But they don't have enough of them to field in here. The SSD's are vulnerable to a constant attack from fighters and capital ships as we see in ROTJ for ex. The eclipse wasn't completed before Endor (which I assume we are using the GE before Endor with Palps and Vader in it) and Tyber Zann managed to get control of it for a bried period of time and we know what R2 did to the second so even there most powerful ships aren't safe from sabatoge.... I think we agree that the empire loses though due to the numbers against them. right?
Pardon? The Empire fielded "dozens" of Super Star Destroyers if Han Solo's commentary in Return of the Jedi is to be taken seriously. In sheer firepower, nothing Krayt has at his disposal is anything approaching what Palpatine had at his. The military build up for the original Galactic Empire is profoundly startling; it was the largest amassed military in galactic history. I know almost nothing about Legacy, other than that Fel's Empire-in-exile and the remnants of the Galactic Alliance control considerable portions of the galaxy in their own right.
But yes, absolutely, the Empire gets obliterated due to sheer numbers.
I don't recall her using those toys in the JA series and her other appearances prior to LOTF, so I don't think that weapon design was completed yet. (correct me if im wrong here)
The Maw Installation was shut down by New Republic authorities nor is Daala stated to have worked on the prototypes. They were specifically noted to be leftovers from the Empire's weapons projects in the Maw. It stands to reason that they were in working order even then.
There were two?
Yep. Only one appeared in the series.
Originally posted by Gideon
Pardon? The Empire fielded "dozens" of Super Star Destroyers if Han Solo's commentary in Return of the Jedi is to be taken seriously.
But yes, absolutely, the Empire gets obliterated due to sheer numbers.
That's kind of my point, they may have many SSD's but when you're facing six other navies it will spread their numbers.....
The Maw Installation was shut down by New Republic authorities nor is Daala stated to have worked on the prototypes. They were specifically noted to be leftovers from the Empire's weapons projects in the Maw. It stands to reason that they were in working order even then.
Yep. Only one appeared in the series.
Originally posted by HewhoknowsallWhy do YOU insist on ahem... ignoring and not responding to Gideon's points and instead jumping straight personal attacks. Isn't that what you accuse US of doing? At least do both instead of just the one that makes you look like an idiot.
Insults and more insults. Are you OK? Have you had a bad day? Or are you just so mad that I offended the all so cool Empire (why are you the fanboy of a fictional but still evil Empire that committed mass genocide that made Hitler look like a saint? Do you like evil tyrants?) and decide that I must pay for doing so?