Originally posted by Gideon
Yoda managed to shame Count Dooku,
Would you be willing to elaborate on and substantiate this claim because I just read the relevant passages and the fight was far more even than it's been described to be in the past. While Yoda is suggested to have been slowly gaining the upper hand, where was it even implied that it wasn't close? They were both described as having fought extremely viciously, and they were both described as coming extremely close to landing hits on the other, Yoda alone was described as breathing hard, and all those facts combined with the lack of evidence of Yoda's apparently overwhelming superiority, and I really don't see how Dooku was "shamed" exactly. The fact that Dooku is also able to maintain the freedom of movement and concentration to use the Force on his surroundings and the energy to actively goad Yoda during the battle would also strongly indicate that he was by no means being overwhelmed by Yoda's offence during the battle.
And because I'm in a helpful mood, I'll even provide you with the passage:
Sar Wars : Yoda : Dark Rendezvous (A Clone Wars Novel)
Pages 314 - 318
"In the entryway, Whirry was shifting from foot to foot in extremes of agitation.
"Please, Master! Don't let the Jedi steal my Baby again! Do something for me, for all my hard work, Master?"
Dooku glanced up.
"Do something for you?" His eyes flicked to Yoda and the lightsaber at the Jedi Master's belt. "Of course I'll do something for you."
With a flick of his hand, he picked up the heavyset woman with the Force and hurled her through the window casement. Yoda's eyes went wide with shock.
"You might want to help her," Dooku said.
With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground. Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below.
"Wish to hurt you, I do not!"
"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."
As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.
"I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.
"Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."
"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.
Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire.
"Yes-but Yoda knows how to live!"
Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.
"Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to. "
Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic. He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.
"Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.
"I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.
Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking. Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself.
"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."
Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in. Yoda cocked his head.
"A choice made, have you, Count?"
"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course."
Yoda attacked: Dooku parried.
"So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed."
Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement.
"Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives-or taking mine?"
And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly.... But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armored kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux."
one of the most proficient duelists and powerful Sith Lords in galactic history,
Where did this statement come from? I've heard the one where he was said to have been one of the most powerful Jedi in their entire history, and an even greater Sith, but this appears to be a first. Would you mind adequately sourcing it?
Also, and as I've told you before with similar quotes, given the sheer numbers we're talking about here (millions of Sith Lords throughout their history), could you substantiate what being "one of the best of" actually means in context otherwise this is worthless to bring up. Does it put him among dozens of other Sith Lords? Hundreds? Thousands?
on a planet steeped within the dark side of the Force, boosting the Count's power to such a level that he nearly killed Asajj Ventress by lifting a finger.
Well firstly, consider the nature of the attack, one that appeared to rely more so on precision than sheer power. It's entirely possible, and probably, that such a gesture was the most appropriate and effective way of pulling such an attack off, so the implication that the manner in which he pulled off the attack makes the display even more impressive is not necessarily the case.
It's also very probable, given the circumstances, that Asajj wouldn't have been actively defending herself with the Force. The two of them weren't in a battle situation, there was little warning and almost no justification for the attack, and the passage makes no note of her attempting to fight the attack off.
And because I'm still in such a helpful mood:
Pages 24 - 25
"Mantises squirmed and hunted in the vision over his desk. He snapped off the holocron and consulted a monitor.
"Ah. Our latest batch of guests is arriving. Loyal beings and true, for the Trade Federation cause and a ten percent profit. Go meet them at the door. You always make such an impression on visitors."
"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly.
Dooku looked around. "Or what?"
Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain.
"Please," she said. "Don't."
"It doesn't feel very good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest."
Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor.
"It's the blood vessels I hate," Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside, like balloons about to pop."
"P-p-p-please..."
"But worse than anything is the memories," he said, more softly still. "They crowd around, like flies on meat. Every despicable thing, every petty vice, every little act of spite."
A cruel, strange quiet stretched out as Ventress panted on the stone floor. Rain ticked against the window glass, and the Count's soft voice went dark and far away.
"All the things you should have stopped, but didn't, and nothing will ever be right again. And the things you've done," he whispered. "By the pitiless stars, the things you've done..."
The comm on Dooku's desk beeped. He shook his head, like a man waking from a dream.
"The Troxan delegation is at the door."
Ventress crawled to her feet. Her face was bruised and her cheeks were wet with tears. Both pretended not to notice.
"Tell them I'll be right down," Count Dooku said."
Yoda did so [defeated Dooku] despite being distracted
Firstly, it wasn't a traditional defeat. He neither disarmed nor scored a hit on Dooku. Dooku simply used a diversion to end a battle that Yoda appears to have been slowly gaining momentum in.
Secondly, the distraction was extremely brief and only took place at the very beginning of their battle where Dooku actually managed to score a hit on Yoda. Yoda then went on to block out the pain, and they proceed to fight on an even footing in what is described as a somewhat close battle.
and repeatedly expressed his desire to not kill Dooku.
That he expressed a desire to not kill Dooku doesn't mean that he was acting on that desire. The passage makes no note of Yoda holding back in any way, and he even states outright to Dooku "love you enough to destroy you I do".
You're also neglecting to mention Dooku's own emotional struggle as detailed frequently throughout the preceding chapters, the best example of which would be:
"He had a brief fantasy of letting go with a single blast of Force energy, shattering the window, flaying the old Master with the shards. He imagined Yoda tumbling through the air, bloody and insensible, dashing his brains out on the flagstones far below. Then it would all be mercifully over and Dooku wouldn't have to feel this strange, jumbled confusion. His hands would stop shaking and he would be dry inside and tight: dry and tight and empty as a drum, just a drum for Darth Sidious to play. How easy that would be. But Yoda would be prepared for that; it would never be so easy. Count Dooku prided himself on his ability to see reality for what it really was. He opened the casement window."
He would then go toe-to-toe with the most powerful Sith Lord in history,
A thus far unproven claim (Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord in history).
and the two of them would hurl automobile sized Senate pods like paper wads.
Well now you're just being silly. Yoda makes an outright effort to evade almost every single Senate Pod, and when he finally does decide to throw one back at Sidious, he takes a ridiculously large amount of time for something being likened to a paper wad, and sends it back at an absurdly low speed.
Alternatively I could point out another instance from the movies where he struggles with relatively basic telekinesis, where his entire body literally shakes when he attempts to hold a pillar in place and move it to the side. These displays seriously aren't looking good for Yoda with the numerous high level telekinetic displays we've seen throughout the mythology.
links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inTbUf5Swfc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKFfnRugouY
Yoda also evaded three armed Jedi Masters in close quarters combat, one of them being the great Depa Billaba, who was a swordswoman of great repute;
In a display to the Jedi younglings that could have easily been exaggerated to illustrate the benefits of precognition.
Or you could consider that the three master combatants lacked the control and timing to react to "a slow and measured tread".
Regardless I really fail to see what's necessarily impressive about a relatively basic (albeit quite casually controlled) demonstration of precognition.
Star Wars : Darth Maul : Shadowhunter
"She had attended a lecture on battle techniques given by Master Yoda earlier this year, and the memory of it came back to her now.
Yoda had faced the assembled students and spoken, his thin reedy voice somehow carrying to the far corners of the lecture hall without benefit of amplifiers.
"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives."
And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Bil-laba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him. The lesson had struck powerfully home: Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique."
he wasn't armed at the time.
Relevance? How would not being armed factor in on how well he could evade an attack?
His skills with the lightsaber, according to Shadow Hunter and other sources, were second to none on the Jedi Council, putting him above the likes of Mace Windu, who was a "high end master of multiple forms" and the creator of the deadliest of all forms.
The exact quote goes:
"Yoda moved slowly toward one of the chairs. He leaned on his gimer-stick cane as he walked, and Windu had to suppress a smile as he watched Yoda's progress. While Yoda was easily the oldest member of the council, being well over 800 standard years of age, he was by no means as decrepit as he sometimes pretended to be. Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council."
The use of the term "still" would indicate that his "skill" with a lightsaber was "second to none" despite having "slowed slightly in the years", which would indicate that his skill in this context is referring to his overall level of ability and not sheerly his technique, if that's what you're suggesting as your comparison appears to imply.
The Revenge of the Sith novelization declares that Yoda is "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known"
"It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi. It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark. In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.
Finally, he saw the truth.
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it."
If you're referring to this passage, then it's entirely probable that the passage is indirectly Yoda, the idea being that Yoda finally saw "the truth" (what he perceives to be the truth) and "this truth" outlining exactly what it was that he came to see. I'm not saying that it can't be coming from the omniscient narrator but the passage fits perfectly into the narrative technique of free indirect discourse and it's very probable that the statement is being indirectly voiced by Yoda. Meaning you cannot use the statement as factual evidence in the way that you currently are.
and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia states that he was "extraordinarily powerful in the Force."
Could you substantiate what this actually means with respect to Caedus?
The inside cover of Invincible refers to Caedus as possessing a command of the Force "surpassing even his grandfather, Darth Vader" -- the qualifier "even" suggesting that that is his upper limit -- and also mentions that Caedus is "one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time."
It appears to be the implication, but until it outright states as much bringing it up is pointless, especially considering that it's simply the author's summary of the novel.
a problem that ive noticed with this forum is that people put too much stock into quotes. out of all of the arguments ive seen in yodas defense i havent seen anyone put any consideration into the setting of the fight or the intelligence and personalities of the characters. no one has seriously responded to the fact that caedus:
has a reach advantage
strength advantage
possible situational awareness/situational adaptivity (thats a word?) advantage
has a setting that provides him with a terrain advantage
just because there are quotes showing that yoda has beaten people with similar advantages does not mean he can do it every time to anyone. that just seems like a really boring and lazy way to "debate". any yahoo can copy and paste text from a source book. wheres the critical thinking? im just gonna repeat my earlier and add some stuff:
from a dueling perspective the location of the fight can make or break yodas offensive capabilities. if caedus can bring the fight into a cramped area such as a corridor that will severely limit yodas maneuverability options, which kind of makes up the crux of his lightsaber technique. in a hallway hed essentially be forced to fight at caedus' pace. so with the setting in mind id be willing to give the slight majority to caedus.
in addition from a force perspective when has yoda ever disabled another force user utterly with one force attack? can he as a lightside user even do that in a fight? id expect dooku to drop someone to their knees with a gesture because hes evil. yoda on the other hand has a certain sense of nobility and i dont think hed ever use his powers offensively in that way. the closest thing i can recall him doing that in was the force push against sideous.
so theres my argument with the limited knowledge i have of the characters. to repeat myself, with the above factors in mind id give caedus the majority in a fight due to the setting.
We put stock in to quotes because canon isn't determined by personal opinion and interpretation. We only resort to that when there is no quote or source. And we have actually taken in to consideration settings. It's widely considered that Yoda could have beaten Palpatine had the setting been different.
And in these vs. fights, we can't employ critical thinking as easily as you want. The match never happened, we have absolutely no idea what kind of PIS, variable, or external factor takes play naturally. And we have absolutely no idea how any character would react to them, as it's never been canonically shown.
and you kind of replied for me there.
we have absolutely no idea what kind of PIS, variable, or external factor takes play naturally.
so with that being the case why would yoda being "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" have any sort of merit when that quote doesnt take into consideration any variables? how does it have any relevence to this fight? all it means is that yoda is a great fighter. one of the best even. great fighters have lost to far inferior fighters do to arrogance, human error, or simply having the misfortune to fight in the wrong place at the wrong time, that last one being a very high possiblity in this thread.
Actually, you employed speculation rather well. To quote your "IF caedus can bring the fight into a cramped area" (my highlight).
And your second point to Yoda' disarming capabilities assumes that just because we haven't seen it from someone as powerful as Yoda, that he's incapable. Thankfully, that argument has never worked. Yoda's nobility is also a character trait, and not a character feat. That nobility was conveniently left aside when he embarked to kill Palpatine. If we're taking mentality in to the picture, he'll be leaving it aside to deal with Caedus.
Originally posted by WO PolaskiExactly. Nothing but speculation and variables not listed in the OP. Ultimately, they have no room in making accurate conclusions. "What ifs" and "maybes" abound.
and you kind of replied for me there.so with that being the case why would yoda being "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" have any sort of merit when that quote doesnt take into consideration any variables? how does it have any relevence to this fight? all it means is that yoda is a great fighter. one of the best even. great fighters have lost to far inferior fighters do to arrogance, human error, or simply having the misfortune to fight in the wrong place at the wrong time, that last one being a very high possiblity in this thread.
If you're referring to this passage, then it's entirely probable that the passage is indirectly *being voiced by* Yoda, the idea being that Yoda finally saw "the truth" (what he perceives to be the truth) and "this truth" outlining exactly what it was that he came to see. I'm not saying that it can't be coming from the omniscient narrator but the passage fits perfectly into the narrative technique of free indirect discourse and it's very probable that the statement is being indirectly voiced by Yoda. Meaning you cannot use the statement as factual evidence in the way that you currently are.
Originally posted by LiquorsnakeWho are you talking to?
If you're referring to this passage, then it's entirely probable that the passage is indirectly *[b]being voiced by* Yoda, the idea being that Yoda finally saw "the truth" (what he perceives to be the truth) and "this truth" outlining exactly what it was that he came to see. I'm not saying that it can't be coming from the omniscient narrator but the passage fits perfectly into the narrative technique of free indirect discourse and it's very probable that the statement is being indirectly voiced by Yoda. Meaning you cannot use the statement as factual evidence in the way that you currently are. [/B]
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Actually, you employed speculation rather well. To quote your "IF caedus can bring the fight into a cramped area" (my highlight).
thank ye. i try. 😛
And your second point to Yoda' disarming capabilities assumes that just because we haven't seen it from someone as powerful as Yoda, that he's incapable. Thankfully, that argument has never worked. Yoda's nobility is also a character trait, and not a character feat. That nobility was conveniently left aside when he embarked to kill Palpatine. If we're taking mentality in to the picture, he'll be leaving it aside to deal with Caedus. [/B]
i wasnt trying to say that he is incapable of doing it so much as he just wouldnt do it. even in his fight against sideous, where his conviction to kill him was absolute, we never saw him attempt to cast some force lightning of his own or perform a force choke or anything of that nature. regardless of his ability to do it, that simply isnt apart of his character, which is what i was getting at. i know that a characters personality is not taken into consideration in these fight and thats something else that i disagree with. if were not going to actually discuss the character why bring him up at all? why not just say "cardboard box with Caedus power vs. cardboard box with Yodas power"? imo what makes the characters duels interesting is the emotional battles that go on and how their personalities provide a unique twist on things.
Exactly. Nothing but speculation and variables not listed in the OP. Ultimately, they have no room in making accurate conclusions. "What ifs" and "maybes" abound.
well yeah this is all what-ifs lol. but thats okay because none of this is real.
Originally posted by WO PolaskiHere you must take in to consideration Yoda's character traits. He's a staunch opponent of the Potentium, and would never view the Force in terms of any way other than Dark and Light. He was off to kill the Dark Side's greatest practitioner, the last true threat to the Light Side and peace. It is entirely against his character's belief and allegiance to suddenly give in to anger or use it simply to defeat that which he'd now be employing. Sounds a bit like Anakin, eh?
i wasnt trying to say that he is incapable of doing it so much as he just wouldnt do it. even in his fight against sideous, where his conviction to kill him was absolute, we never saw him attempt to cast some force lightning of his own or perform a force choke or anything of that nature. regardless of his ability to do it, that simply isnt apart of his character, which is what i was getting at. i know that a characters personality is not taken into consideration in these fight and thats something else that i disagree with. if were not going to actually discuss the character why bring him up at all? why not just say "cardboard box with Caedus power vs. cardboard box with Yodas power"? imo what makes the characters duels interesting is the emotional battles that go on and how their personalities provide a unique twist on things.
Then you have take in to consideration who he's fighting. Star Wars duels aren't laid out like a turn-based RPG. Yoda doesn't cast Force Choke with Palpatine having a 50% chance of dodging. In the midst of a fierce duel, Yoda doesn't have the power advantage to suddenly clasp Palaptine's throat with the Force, or vice-versa, as the movie made clear.
And we don't take in to account character's mentalities due to two main reasons:
1.) Some of these characters, like Revan vs. Mace Windu, never met. We have no idea of judging how they'd behave. Unlike the characters who have met, there's no history or emotion between them to help determine the victor (like Obi-Wan vs. Anakin).
2.) The characters who do have a history and we pair together either a.) already fought and the victor's been determined within the mythos, or b.) contradict each other-- like TPM Qui-Gon and Kenobi, they'd never actually fight, so mentality would be useless to consider.
And a third reason is our own: using mentality to determine these fights takes away from our collective desire to weigh up feats and powers. Mentality's boring here.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Here you must take in to consideration Yoda's character traits. He's a staunch opponent of the Potentium, and would never view the Force in terms of any way other than Dark and Light. He was off to kill the Dark Side's greatest practitioner, the last true threat to the Light Side and peace. It is entirely against his character's belief and allegiance to suddenly give in to anger or use it simply to defeat that which he'd now be employing. Sounds a bit like Anakin, eh?
im not sure exactly what you mean here my reading comprehension kind of sucks(also i have no diea what a potentium is). but when did yoda ever give in to his hate and anger? i dont recall him ever doing a single dark side like act. killing the grand daddy of evil isnt a dark side trait imo.
Then you have take in to consideration who he's fighting. Star Wars duels aren't laid out like a turn-based RPG. Yoda doesn't cast Force Choke with Palpatine having a 50% chance of dodging. In the midst of a fierce duel, Yoda doesn't have the power advantage to suddenly clasp Palaptine's throat with the Force, or vice-versa, as the movie made clear.
do you think that if yoda had the chance he would have used such a technique?
also that brings up another interesting point. people assume that having superior force abilities means you can win any all out fight but how many times have we seen anyone pop off a devastating force ability right in the midst of a lightsaber duel?
1.) Some of these characters, like Revan vs. Mace Windu, never met. We have no idea of judging how they'd behave. Unlike the characters who have met, there's no history or emotion between them to help determine the victor (like Obi-Wan vs. Anakin).
well what do you think is the worst that can happen? theyll sit down and have some tea? im not saying that all variables should be considered, I mean if this is a vs. thread then we assume that they're going to fight each other...
2.) The characters who do have a history and we pair together either a.) already fought and the victor's been determined within the mythos, or b.) contradict each other-- like TPM Qui-Gon and Kenobi, they'd never actually fight, so mentality would be useless to consider.
i dont understand how this would have an impact on a fight though.
And a third reason is our own: using mentality to determine these fights takes away from our collective desire to weigh up feats and powers. Mentality's boring here.
😆
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I suspect a warning from that. Gideon was pmsing about me talking to neb, so supporting him... oh no! He'll give REX a bitchstorm the likes of which the world has never seen.Then rex will remain inactive to show Gideon who is boss. Because Rex rox like that.
This particular subject made its way into a conversation between REX and I not too long ago, actually. And rest assured, I'm fairly certain REX or Ushgarak will make the point particularly clear.
It will happen. And when you get chewed out, I'll take a great measure of satisfaction from it, knowing that I was right and you were wrong and you have an obligation to simply obey.