Queerer than we can suppose: the strangeness of science.

Started by Sadako of Girth5 pages

[QUOTE=12036803]Originally posted by Ordo
I actually think that its less religion that "poisions everything" and more ignorance and intolerance...qualites expressed by all factions of people, including many athiests (re Dawkins, Hitchens).

OMG! 4REALZ?!

This is the sort of ignorance that I'm referring too. [/QUOTE

The use of chastisement via sarcy little playground digs, belies a slightly more ignorant attitude than you might wish to convey, when commenting on the intellectual advancement of others.

He has been very vocal that the title was a book publisher thing, and he deannounces it regularly. 🙂

That you had to leap on that so aggressively says alot about your position in relevance to objectivity on the matter, sir.

May I suggest that you at least read the book before attacking it/Hitchens and especially myself...?

Thanks.

Have a nice day.

Perhaps you are right that Dawkins is more an atheist for European issues. Maybe he is harmful in the, obviously more severe split, in the US.

Originally posted by Ordo
"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence."

Its things like this that bug me. Dawkins is quick to point out the flaws of organized religion. I agree with him there are many. The problem is most of these are endemic to systems (governments, corporations, even science itself) and not religion in particular. Dawkins actively characterizes religion and faith and then dismisses it.

Referring to people to adhere to religion as "delusional" is way over the line. Yes, some of them are. But all of them are not. Dawkins consistantly sacrifices enlightened understanding of science for firebrand athiesm.


I think that the distinction between religious and scientific zeal (or zealotry in service of any other organization) is that religious zealotry can never be rationally supported. The problem, present in many other edifices, is inherent to religion. There is are (presumably) rational arguments for (and against?) communism, capitalism, Wal-Mart, democracy, taxes, moral relativism, moral absolutism, cultural imperialism and what have you. Religion has no such argument. By its own volition, Religion has no rational argument.

It is this glaring weakness in the religious opinion that Dawkins seeks to attack.


I disagree. I don't doubt any of Dawkin's advancements in evolutionary theory. I've mentioned before a lot of them are great (though like hsi views on religion he has a bit of a totalitarian view on the dominance of his ideas). He knows his science, he doesn't know religion. Thus he can't construct a good a dialogue on the relationship between the two.

Dawkins' problem is that science doesn't directly contradict religion. By claiming it does so, he simply CREATES confilct between the two. He is British and doesn't understand a lot of the work that goes on between science and religion here in the US (I'll claim we're more adept at this because we actually deal with large parts of the population (even majorities) that actively deny evolution in any form). He ends up damaging more than he explains.

Science has disproved aspects of religion (if one can ever disprove anything) and I'll agree with that. However, LOGIC, not science are the only mental exercises (and the ones I use) to contradict principles like God. Science can provide evidence, but on these matters, it can't get us from A to C...only A to B. This is progress no doubt, but its not an achievement...and Dawkins clearly thinks his work is such an achievement. I'ver heard him say so in person.


I don't think I disagree with any of this, except that you seem to be downplaying science's utility in an argument against religious faith. If someone believes in God 'because (H)e answers [my] prayers' then science can ascertain if the prayers are answered. Science can validate (not) the claims made in Genesis. In so far as Yahwe is a personal God, then science is one of the greatest foes of religion.


Frankly...I dont feel religion doesn't have any more power than it had...and it probably has less. There are always nutters, religion is constantly in a state of decline and revival. Some aspects fo religion endure, but a lot of the dogma and details have fallen to the wayside over the years.

My classmates were taught ID as a 'valid alternative' to evolutionary biology because the Diff. Bio teacher is a religious man. To sell the influence of religion in America short would be unwise, especially in the 'red states' where religion is strongest. (Texas, here's looking at you. Nebraska isn't great either.)

...and religion has never stood up to stcrutiny...Dawkins aside.
👆

Originally posted by Bardock42
Perhaps you are right that Dawkins is more an atheist for European issues. Maybe he is harmful in the, obviously more severe split, in the US.

Fair play.

Thats where Hitchens comes in, he has lived in the US since 1982 and has been made a full citizen and is often on tv/ taking place in debates over there..

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Fair play.

Thats where Hitchens comes in, he has lived in the US since 1982 and has been made a full citizen and is often on tv/ taking place in debates over there..

Though he seems much more head on, really. Dawkin's always struck me as a thoughtful...more gentleman like atheist really, perhaps with a little offensive rhetoric. But Hitchens, he's a right dick...funny though, at times, and he does make a lot of sense often.

so much to say in the thread, but so little time, only thing I wanted to add quickly:

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Er, yeah.

Delusion is belief when evidence contradicts you. Faith is belief when there is no evidence one way or another. If you've been given what you consider valid evidence that God doesn't exist and still believe that's delusion.

delusional beliefs cannot be cultural and must cause persistent problems in a person's life.

The belief in God is HIGHLY cultural, and for most people causes them no problems, thus, belief in God is not delusional. Hell, its hardly psychological.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Dawkin's always struck me as a thoughtful...more gentleman like atheist really, perhaps with a little offensive rhetoric. But Hitchens, he's a right dick...funny though, at times, and he does make a lot of sense often.

Same here. Anyone with that kind of agenda is going to rub people the wrong way, regardless of how nice they go about it. But yeah, Hitchens is a dick a lot of the time. Doesn't mean I can't agree with him, but Dawkins is at least putting on a better facade of civility. Which is why I never really understood the hatred people have for him. Dislike his message, disagree with it, whatever. But why hate him personally?

Originally posted by Digi
Same here. Anyone with that kind of agenda is going to rub people the wrong way, regardless of how nice they go about it. But yeah, Hitchens is a dick a lot of the time. Doesn't mean I can't agree with him, but Dawkins is at least putting on a better facade of civility. Which is why I never really understood the hatred people have for him. Dislike his message, disagree with it, whatever. But why hate him personally?
People who hate are afraid. Their belief systems are fragile, and it's more important to be "right" than to remember what's more important: mutual respect so that differences can be discussed with civility.

Then again...the Pope just has to breathe and it offends half the Globe.

Originally posted by inimalist
so much to say in the thread, but so little time, only thing I wanted to add quickly:

delusional beliefs cannot be cultural and must cause persistent problems in a person's life.

The belief in God is HIGHLY cultural, and for most people causes them no problems, thus, belief in God is not delusional. Hell, its hardly psychological.

Cultures believed the earth to be flat once.

Cultures believed that each day a sun god that went across the sky in a canoe, diedand was reborn.

The argument that mass belief in a delusion validates it, is not one I'd recognise.

A faith that says to accept whatever befalling you, and you'll be alright in the afterlife is a dubious one.

A very sincere belief in this sort of mumbo jumbo caused the death of nearly 3,000 people on 9/11 and if the subsequent wars are a consequence, then add the lives lost in Afghanistan and Iraq to that list.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Then again...the Pope just has to breathe and it offends half the Globe.

Because he his head of a massively corrupt system that covers up its institutionalised paeodophila, and has mafia links..and makes bizarre statements juxaposed against these facts deserved of the reaction that he gets half the time..?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Cultures believed the earth to be flat once.

Cultures believed that each day a sun god that went across the sky in a canoe, diedand was reborn.

The argument that mass belief in a delusion validates it, is not one I'd recognise.

A faith that says to accept whatever befalling you, and you'll be alright in the afterlife is a dubious one.

A very sincere belief in this sort of mumbo jumbo caused the death of nearly 3,000 people on 9/11 and if the subsequent wars are a consequence, then add the lives lost in Afghanistan and Iraq to that list.

no, see, what it means is that, if you grow up in a culture where you are taught the world is flat, it isn't delusional, because there is no way for you to know better.

And really, nationalism kills more than religion, so you might as well be an anarchist too

Originally posted by inimalist
And really, nationalism kills more than religion, so you might as well be an anarchist too

And wanting things motivates most violence so you should try out a lobotomy 😛

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And wanting things motivates most violence so you should try out a lobotomy 😛

I think the problem starts with oxygen and moves from there

we need like, atmospheric anti-oxidants

Originally posted by inimalist
I think the problem starts with oxygen and moves from there
Damn photoautotrophs.

Originally posted by inimalist
no, see, what it means is that, if you grow up in a culture where you are taught the world is flat, it isn't delusional, because there is no way for you to know better.

And really, nationalism kills more than religion, so you might as well be an anarchist too

Then its merely a second hand delusion you have, in that scenario.
It didnt make it true.

Nationalism is no powderpuff either though, I agree.
Dunno about more than religion though as often they are interlocked.

Originally posted by inimalist
And really, nationalism kills more than religion, so you might as well be an anarchist too

...or libertarian. According to my friends who enjoy razzing me for my political opinions, it's the same thing.

🙄

But yeah, I'll insert a "state is the new idol..." paraphrase to support this general line of thinking. I love my country but it's hard being a nationalist when I see the absolutely stupid lengths it is taken to sometimes.

Originally posted by Digi
...or libertarian. According to my friends who enjoy razzing me for my political opinions, it's the same thing.

🙄

Well, libertarianism incorporates some anarchists...

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Then its merely a second hand delusion you have, in that scenario.
It didnt make it true.

believing something that is untrue is NOT a delusion

really, come on man

It is, Im afraid.

"A delusion, in everyday language, is a fixed belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception. Psychiatry defines the term more specifically as a belief that is pathological (the result of an illness or illness process). As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, apperception, illusion, or other effects of perception."

Thats also the sense in which Dawkins means it.

Not hatefully spitting the word like the delusional are evil schizos or something, merely that the god hypothesis is wrong.

No additional judgements made.