The Ancient Sith

Well the true sith did overwhelm the republic and jedi in coruscant pretty easily.

And the unidentified sith lord that led the attack did seem pretty powerful ragdolling several jedi and slaughtering many with ease.

But yeah revans empire did have the advantage of an unlimited supply of warships while the true sith empire did have technologically more advanced weapons and warships so yeah, tough one indeed.

But so far revans the military smart guy.

BTW DS, how powerful do you think the true sith are in terms of force and combat prowess? Like the unidentified sith lord and the sith emperor?

The unidentified sith lord seems to be very powerful, as does Lord Agral. I think these sith, having the luxury of consistent training and ancient sith knowledge, are a lot more powerful than Revan's empire, if there was constant 1 on 1 comabt. And I can only imagine how powerful a pure blooded sith who has lived for 1400 years, could be. Then again, what does that say about Sadow, Kressh, and Ragnos, if this sith Emperor was a nobody in the ancient sith empire?

I honestly do not know but i believe that its likely the sith emperor may be stronger than ragnos, sadow and kresh considering that he has been alive far longer than ragnos(i think but correct me here if i'm wrong) and that would allow him to become more powerful in the dark side of the force(yoda was alive for 800 years and sidious alone with 6 decades of DS knowledge is already incredible in the force) seeing that he had a thousand years to study the force and rebuild the shattered empire.

The sith emperor would probably be superior in combat and force abilities to both the unidentified sith and angral may be a testament to his power, the unidentified sith alone already seemed extremely strong and i doubt that he dared to challenge the sith emperor for supremacy.

This is however all speculation on my part.

The 'True Sith Empire' and the Ancient Sith aren't be the same.

'Under the leadership of the Dark Lord of the Sith Naga Sadow, the Empire invaded Republic space during the Great Hyperspace War, but it was defeated. The Sith Empire was believed to have been destroyed by Republic forces during the Second Battle of Korriban, but in fact survived due to a single Sith Lord who escaped to the Unknown Regions. There, this new Sith Emperor, whose rule lasted for well over a thousand years, rebuilt the Sith Empire and struck back against the Republic in the Great Galactic War in 3,681 BBY.'

This text - taken from Wookieepedia - claims that the Sith Emperor was a Sith Lord under Naga Sadow, and therefore most likely not a member of some unknown race, which, for me, would be the Ancient Sith, the species that Adas was a member of.

We also know that Naga Sadow was half-human, half 'Sith', as in the species, and as the Sith fled to Ziost - Naga Sadow's homeworld, he is obviously one of the Ancient Sith.

The Massassi are listed as a subspecies of the Ancient Sith, by Wookieepedia, and Freedon Nadd has said that they were descendants of the Ancient Sith, so, they may have 'evolved', or devolved from said race, just as we humans evolved from monkeys.

As to continue on the argument that True Sith and Ancient Sith aren't the same, yet another quote from Wookiee.

'Around the year 6,900 BBY, exiled fallen Jedi—fleeing from the Battle of Corbos, which concluded the Hundred-Year Darkness—landed on Korriban, a desolate world inhabited by the relatively primitive but unusually Force-sensitive Sith people. Using their training in the Force, the fallen Jedi amazed the Sith, and elevated themselves to god-like status on Korriban, becoming the rulers of the Sith people. As years passed, and interbreeding occurred between the Fallen Jedi and the Sith, the term "Sith" came to mean not only the original inhabitants of Korriban, but also their fallen Jedi masters. Thus was the Sith Empire born, with nearby Ziost becoming the capital, while Korriban became a sacred mausoleum-world.'

So, the True Sith Empire was nothing more than a mix between the Ancient Sith and fallen Jedi. The awesome Sith-dude in the TOR-trailer could be a half-breed.

I might even write an essay about my theories on this. But, not today.

The "sith" is actually a belief, a philosophy so yes, the ancient sith empire and the true sith empire are some what the same.

This alone is backed up at the official SWTOR website.

Species wise, of course they are not the same, the "true sith" that invaded the republic consisted of far too many human beings.
But in terms of the empire, it is as the official website stated the sith emperor rebuilt the sith empire in hiding.

EDIT.

I said that the "True sith" and the "Sith empire" are the same due to the fact that it IS the same empire, but consisted of different species at different times(pure blood sith during the great hyperspace war and human/half breeds during TOR).

Anyways, what do you mean exactly that they are not the same?

Originally posted by Aklis
The 'True Sith Empire' and the Ancient Sith aren't be the same.

'Under the leadership of the Dark Lord of the Sith Naga Sadow, the Empire invaded Republic space during the Great Hyperspace War, but it was defeated. [b]The Sith Empire was believed to have been destroyed by Republic forces during the Second Battle of Korriban, but in fact survived due to a single Sith Lord who escaped to the Unknown Regions. There, this new Sith Emperor, whose rule lasted for well over a thousand years, rebuilt the Sith Empire and struck back against the Republic in the Great Galactic War in 3,681 BBY.'

This text - taken from Wookieepedia - claims that the Sith Emperor was a Sith Lord under Naga Sadow, and therefore most likely not a member of some unknown race, which, for me, would be the Ancient Sith, the species that Adas was a member of.

We also know that Naga Sadow was half-human, half 'Sith', as in the species, and as the Sith fled to Ziost - Naga Sadow's homeworld, he is obviously one of the Ancient Sith.

The Massassi are listed as a subspecies of the Ancient Sith, by Wookieepedia, and Freedon Nadd has said that they were descendants of the Ancient Sith, so, they may have 'evolved', or devolved from said race, just as we humans evolved from monkeys.

As to continue on the argument that True Sith and Ancient Sith aren't the same, yet another quote from Wookiee.

'Around the year 6,900 BBY, exiled fallen Jedi—fleeing from the Battle of Corbos, which concluded the Hundred-Year Darkness—landed on Korriban, a desolate world inhabited by the relatively primitive but unusually Force-sensitive Sith people. Using their training in the Force, the fallen Jedi amazed the Sith, and elevated themselves to god-like status on Korriban, becoming the rulers of the Sith people. As years passed, and interbreeding occurred between the Fallen Jedi and the Sith, the term "Sith" came to mean not only the original inhabitants of Korriban, but also their fallen Jedi masters. Thus was the Sith Empire born, with nearby Ziost becoming the capital, while Korriban became a sacred mausoleum-world.'

So, the True Sith Empire was nothing more than a mix between the Ancient Sith and fallen Jedi. The awesome Sith-dude in the TOR-trailer could be a half-breed.

I might even write an essay about my theories on this. But, not today. [/B]

btw DS, what did you expect the "true sith" to actually look like? I always thought they were not human and probably pure blooded sith or horrible looking monsters that had incredible command of the force.

I was actually disappointed that the "true sith" were revealed to be consisted of mostly humans and not pure sith or hideous looking humanoids.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
btw DS, what did you expect the "true sith" to actually look like? I always thought they were not human and probably pure blooded sith or horrible looking monsters that had incredible command of the force.

I was actually disappointed that the "true sith" were revealed to be consisted of mostly humans and not pure sith or hideous looking humanoids.

Whatever the sith looked like circa 27700 BBY, I suppose. I expected them to be powerful as well. Most SW writers have no concept of continuity.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
btw DS, what did you expect the "true sith" to actually look like? I always thought they were not human and probably pure blooded sith or horrible looking monsters that had incredible command of the force.

I was actually disappointed that the "true sith" were revealed to be consisted of mostly humans and not pure sith or hideous looking humanoids.

The "True" Sith were just the direct descendants of Sadow, Kressh and the other lords of the Sith Empire.

Even if you go back to before the hyperspace war the Sith Lords were either human or Sith/human hybrids like Sadow and Ragnos.

The term "Sith" after the second schism of the Jedi order, mostly refers to the philosophy of those dark Jedi exiles. The use of the word "True" only references the legitimacy of inheritance, their direct link to the old empire.

They are not so special, they just have a connection by blood to the old Sith Empire.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Anyways, what do you mean exactly that they are not the same?

Well, as stated by Wookieepedia, the True Sith Empire was the name that the Sith on Korriban, the fallen Jedi and their offspring went by, and the Ancient Sith were the Sith Race originally on Korriban. Was this retconned, or? I'm confused. When I say 'Ancient Sith', I refer to those who fought the Infinite Empire.

Quote from Wookiee--

'Around 6,900 BBY, Dark Jedi exiles fleeing from the Galactic Republic after their defeat in the Hundred Year Darkness, established themselves as "divine" rulers over the native Sith, uniting the world once again, this time under the rule of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Over the generations, the Sith interbred with the Human Dark Jedi.'

The highlighted part is what Naga Sadow derived from, and the quote as a whole is what defines what I think of as the Empire itself.

And, you saying that the 'True Sith' and 'Sith Empire' being the same, I have never argued against that. In fact, that's my point.

The Ancient Sith, however, are a race. And, no, they weren't pure-blooded during the Great Hyperspace War, either.

I love quoting from Wookiee, so, here goes. Again.

'After their defeat during the earliest Jedi Civil Wars, called the Great Schisms, the adherents of the dark side fled from Republic space and settled on the world of Korriban, where they ruled over the barbaric, red-skinned Sith species like gods.

In time, the Dark Jedi and the remarkably Force-sensitive Sith natives interbred through the use of Sith alchemy, and became one people. The united Sith formed an immensely rich and powerful empire built upon sorcery, and dark-side-fueled technology quite possibly adapted from the scattered ruins of the earlier Infinite Empire of the Rakata.

Over the centuries, the Dark Jedi exiles were forgotten by the Galactic Republic, even as all records of the Republic were lost by the Sith. The two civilizations thrived in isolation, each ignorant of the other.'

lol.... The True Sith WERE the descendants of Adas and his sith, until this was retconned.

The Ancient sith were the Sith of the Exiles.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
lol.... The True Sith WERE the descendants of Adas and his sith, until this was retconned.

According to Wookieepedia--

'The formation of the Sith Empire occured in circa 28,000 BBY on the world of Korriban following the defeat of the Rakata invaders at the hands of King Adas.'

Note that Adas died in this war.

I have the firm belief that there is no such thing as a "pure blood" Sith. Didn't fallen Jedi discover a system, conquered it and learned the name of it's inhabitants were called 'Sith.' The fallen Jedi assumed the name.

An Ancient Sith doesn't neccessarly have to be a mixed race. There had to be at least a few pure blood human. The 'true Sith' had access to sorcerey, alchemy, etc etc. That hasn't been seen since Darth Zannah. But infighting was inevitable. That probably led to the collapse of the 'true Sith.' However, there probably was a few survivors and maybe the writers of Star Wars are finally bringinning them to life in FOTJ.

I think that the inhabitants of the planet that the fallen Jedi discovered (Korriban) are the Ancient Sith, and the True Sith Empire was originally composed of them and the fallen Jedi, but as time passed, they were partially mixed into a single species - the species of Naga Sadow.

Except the species of Naga Sadow are no more. I don't think the Jedi would knowingly commit an attrocity of that scale. The Exile screwed up at Malachor, nearly wiping out the Mandalorian race. So if the race of Naga Sadow is dead, then technically the Sith should be extinct.

You bring up a very good point, but possibly Naga Sadow was entirely a different species who had access to both the dark side and Sith sorcerery. Fallen Jedi, may have found Korriban because it was strong with the dark side and discovered him and followed his teachings. But like the mafia, they killed him because the Sith as in thw words of Shaak Ti "the Sith always betray one another."

Stop using Wookieepedia as your main source. Or I'll edit the stuff you used from it.

Truculent
There had to be at least a few pure blood human.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Except the species of Naga Sadow are no more. I don't think the Jedi would knowingly commit an attrocity of that scale. The Exile screwed up at Malachor, nearly wiping out the Mandalorian race. So if the race of Naga Sadow is dead, then technically the Sith should be extinct.

You bring up a very good point, but possibly Naga Sadow was entirely a different species who had access to both the dark side and Sith sorcerery. Fallen Jedi, may have found Korriban because it was strong with the dark side and discovered him and followed his teachings. But like the mafia, they killed him because the Sith as in thw words of Shaak Ti "the Sith always betray one another."

Naga Sadow's homeworld was Ziost, and he was a halfbreed. And, when did we last see someone who looked like him? This took place a millenia before Revan's time. I'm just being hypothetical. I'd like a source saying that they are extinct before I agree.

Besides, Lost Tribe of the Sith: Precipice states that he indeed was half human half Sith. I'm merely trying to voice my ideas about what 'Sith' means, here.

Exar Kun's Brotherhood of the Sith also utilized Sith magic. Bane gave Zannah a scroll with multiple Sith spells.

Seemingly there's nothing unusual with being able to use both.

And, Slash, oh, great Slash, you don't actually mean that I should buy every single piece of Star Wars literature AND carry all that is stated there in my head, like the rest of you obviously are?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
lol.... The True Sith WERE the descendants of Adas and his sith, until this was retconned.

The Ancient sith were the Sith of the Exiles.

I don't see why anyone would expect that the "True" Sith were separate from the Sith Empire formed after the second schism.

Adas descendants are the very same people that formed the Empire of the hyperspace wars, Sith Lords and all their subjects.

Since the second schism the term "Sith" has referred primarily to the teachings of the Dark Jedi and Sith sorcerers. Most of them by that point were Sith/human hybrids.

Originally posted by Allankles
I don't see why anyone would expect that the "True" Sith were separate from the Sith Empire formed after the second schism.

Adas descendants are the very same people that formed the Empire of the hyperspace wars, Sith Lords and all their subjects.

Since the second schism the term "Sith" has referred primarily to the teachings of the Dark Jedi and Sith sorcerers. Most of them by that point were Sith/human hybrids.

Before the new Star Wars game once again ruined continuity, Adas' sith were said to have relocated to Ziost, and a bunch of them headed into the unknown regions to revise their empire. This is separate from the ancient sith, formed by the Jedi Exiles.