Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No, they get paid to do the job. That's it. Their salary doesn't change for "great service" or "awful service" unless someone tips them better or worse.People typically don't end up as waiters due to their huge number of job options. The wages are low because of tipping in the first place.
In their job description it is obligatory to give good service - otherwise noone will come eat or spend time/money at the place.
Good service is mandatory for all service jobs - and many service jobs are not tipped.
Search ANY service jobs, and the requirement is 'good/exceptional' customer service.
As it's been said, tipping in a lot of countries is rude and offensive to the person. They are doing a job, not begging or looking for charity because their wage is shit.
The fact that tip is EXPECTED is even worse and more pathetic.
If you cannot find a better job than waitress, then perhaps you should have spent more time in school getting an education.
Silver Service and professional waiters are paid shit loads of money because their service is already exceptional - they're trained professionals - the art of fine service has been supplanted by those who only wait table for the quick buck or to get through college.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
In their job description it is obligatory to give good service - otherwise noone will come eat or spend time/money at the place.
Good service is mandatory for all service jobs - and many service jobs are not tipped.
Search ANY service jobs, and the requirement is 'good/exceptional' customer service.As it's been said, tipping in a lot of countries is rude and offensive to the person. They are doing a job, not begging or looking for charity because their wage is shit.
The fact that tip is EXPECTED is even worse and more pathetic.
If you cannot find a better job than waitress, then perhaps you should have spent more time in school getting an education.Silver Service and professional waiters are paid shit loads of money because their service is already exceptional - they're trained professionals - the art of fine service has been supplanted by those who only wait table for the quick buck or to get through college.
You're of course welcome to consistently not tip at restaurants and see what happens to your service srug
Re: Re: Tipping servers and other job items with money motivation.
Originally posted by inimalist
not capitalized
I am dead serious when I say I debated capital or no captial, before submitting. I decided to capitalize since it was the start of the sentence and your name is a word-name, with a missing leter.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
How sad is it that we have to submit to them when they're the ones being paid for service.
You don't have to do anything. If you're honestly that terrified of waiters I suggest buying a cookbook or, if your a total incompetent, lots of ramen.
And "paying for food" is hardly the same thing as "submitting". This reminds me of the people who say you're morally justified in gunning down repo men.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You don't have to do anything. If you're honestly that terrified of waiters I suggest buying a cookbook or, if your a total incompetent, lots of ramen.And "paying for food" is hardly the same thing as "submitting". This reminds me of the people who say you're morally justified in gunning down repo men.
What the hell is the point of that post? I am more than happy to tip a CHEF whos talent for cooking is on my plate, than a waiter who does NOTHING.
My partner is a head chef at a very prominent and expensive restaurant in Montreal.
He prepares food which goes for $50 and up per course - yet, he gets NO tip.
Instead, some half wit who managed to get a plate of food from point A to point B gets a 15% tip from a party that just ate for $2 000.
Tips should go to chefs. He has a good wage, because what he does deserves a good pay, but equally if someone is satisfied, they should be tipping a chef, not someone who brought the plate someone else decorated and cooked the food that is on it.
I see a lot of sense in rewarding a waiter who has brought me food, and not a chef who actually went through trouble to make it.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What the hell is the point of that post? I am more than happy to tip a CHEF whos talent for cooking is on my plate, than a waiter who does NOTHING.My partner is a head chef at a very prominent and expensive restaurant in Montreal.
He prepares food which goes for $50 and up per course - yet, he gets NO tip.
Instead, some half wit who managed to get a plate of food from point A to point B gets a 15% tip from a party that just ate for $2 000.
Tips should go to chefs. He has a good wage, because what he does deserves a good pay, but equally if someone is satisfied, they should be tipping a chef, not someone who brought the plate someone else decorated and cooked the food that is on it.
Just bullshit, is all it is.
Tipping doesn't alter what you're paying because their wages are already adjusted on the assumption they get tips (and it's voluntary so stop crying about it). If you don't want to tip, don't tip. It's entirely up to you.
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosNo, when the only reason you tip them is because of fear that they will tamper with your food, it's submitting to, dare I say, terrorism.
You don't have to do anything. If you're honestly that terrified of waiters I suggest buying a cookbook or, if your a total incompetent, lots of ramen.And "paying for food" is hardly the same thing as "submitting". This reminds me of the people who say you're morally justified in gunning down repo men.
I pay for the food and their service. When the service is good, I know they earn the paycheck they've agreed to work for. When it's bad (and I mean bad, not just "behind schedule" bad) I refuse to go there for a few months.
It's a sad affair when giving extra money to your server is a standard and expected practice. May as well hand the guy who pumps my gas an extra $5 for saying "Have a nice day, sir."
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, when the only reason you tip them is because of fear that they will tamper with your food, it's submitting to, dare I say, terrorism.I pay for the food and their service. When the service is good, I know they earn the paycheck they've agreed to work for. When it's bad (and I mean bad, not just "behind schedule" bad) I refuse to go there for a few months.
It's a sad affair when giving extra money to your server is a standard and expected practice. May as well hand the guy who pumps my gas an extra $5 for saying "Have a nice day, sir."
Except it's really not. The tradition of tipping resulted in waiters being given lower pay-checks due to the tipping. It doesn't apply to any other professions because their no history so their earning are modified based on that expectation.
It can't be terrorism because terrorists seek you out. This happens completely the other way around. You went out of your way to travel to a restaurant and be exposed to these apparently evil people.
So like I said all these complaints are stupid. If you scared of waiters DON'T GO TO A FVCKING RESTAURANT!
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Tipping doesn't alter what you're paying because their wages are already adjusted on the assumption they get tips (and it's voluntary so stop crying about it). If you don't want to tip, don't tip. It's entirely up to you.
Not really. Tips are standard now and expected.
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosDo YOU tip?
Except it's really not. The tradition of tipping resulted in waiters being given lower pay-checks due to the tipping. It doesn't apply to any other professions because their no history so their earning are modified based on that expectation.Really, though, like I said all these complaints are stupid. If you scared of waiters DON'T GO TO A FVCKING RESTAURANT!
Re: Re: Tipping servers and other job items with money motivation.
Originally posted by inimalist
the point was about whether under-tipping/not tipping for perceived poor performance would be an effective tool of motivation for people to become better waiter/waitresses.Given you seem to have devoted a thread to it, I may as well give it an honest effort. Learning is probably my worst area of psych...
I'll give it a look, but what about this: as a concept, "over" and "under" tipping are relative to the person. in the thread that spawned this, chomper said he only paid in accordance with performance, indicating that he would never "under/over tip". The amount he paid, regardless of the standard, was the proper amount, regardless of the perceptions of the waiter/waitress. Additionally, some people standardly pay more or less than the social norm for tipping, meaning that some cases may appear to be an over/under tip even though there is no intent on the part of the customer to communicate this.
Additionally, many factors other than performance would affect how much you tip. Whether there are social influences, if you with family or with people you hardly know, if you are drunk, the physical attractiveness of the server, you current economic situation or how much money you have on your person, and even just your overall mood irrespective of the meal/service. These things would not only affect how much you would be willing to pay, but also how you perceive the service and the experience. If you are broke, just had a fight with your wife and get some guy who didn't have time to shave before going into work (assuming you aren't into the rugged type) serve you, you might not realize he got called in on his day off when they were understaffed, and he is working the load of 3 people. He gets your order wrong, your mood presets you to under-tip to "teach him a lesson", whereas all it is communicating to him is that you are cheap and ignorant.
I would not tip at all if the service was horrible. I don't do this "under/over" thing. That's just unnecessarily complicated. I calculated tip at 20% and then round up to the nearest dollar. I've only once not tipped at all. The lady didn't bring out something I ordered, denied that I ordered, and it showed up on my receipt. She also gave me a drink that was probably sitting next to something hot before she brought it to me. (the glass was warm and the beverage almost room temp. No, she didn't pee in it. We didn't get that far yet.) nd got mouthy with me about our order when I asked for the item.
I brought it to her manager. Did not tip the mouthy piece of crap (when I was nice), and got half off of my meal.
That type of person should either drastically change they way the serve, or quit their job where they don't interact with people.
Now, had it just stayed at that, and I tipped at my wife's required 20%+, do you think she would have "learned" as well if I didn't tip at all, especially since there was hardly anyone there?
Originally posted by inimalist
For what you are saying to be correct, there would have to be a stronger link between performance and tip than any other factor, including how much a customer normally tips. For a person to effectively learn to perform better, they would have to believe they performed poorly and know that this was the specific reason that they were tipped at a rate lower than standard, and that would have to be the actual motivation of the customer. This is similar to how, when punishing a child, one should attempt to use a punishment that is related to the wrong activity the child was doing. Hitting someone with a toy is better controlled by taking away the child's toy privileges than by sitting them in a corner, I guess iirc.
Luckily, there's a control for almost every place. The outgoing, ultra-efficient server that gets more tips per table than anyone else.
Coworkers talk. And they talk and talk about their tips, almost every table. When an idiot finds out that they are pulling half as much as everyone else, they will ask what others do differently. If you can guess, I was the ultra-efficient outgoing waiter. I made money. I taught others how to get the most tip...even veterans.
I made mistakes. Most of them were in my first week. It's not rocket science, which is why it isn't a very high paying job.
Originally posted by inimalist
However, one might not need tip and performance to be the strongest correlation of variables for performance to impact tip in a significant way, and the cultural standard is such that there is enough regularity in tipping to account for people who tip based solely on performance and those who regularly over/under tip. It might be argued that some social pressure to over-tip might force the real average tip above the standard, but that is sort of irrelevant, as I would give you that over-tipping would improve performance (though relative to the caveats I gave).The reason why over tipping might improve performance but under tipping would not comes from Skinner, and a lot of other learning research. Skinner, at the end of his career, got into the psychology of rehabilitation and the prison system. Basically, he said that prisons failed because they punished people, they gave them no motivation or incentive to get better.
No, I agree that over-tipping actually plays more of a role in server performance.
To the server, "you were just a little b*tch who wanted everything." However, I found that the server who could meet the "little b*tch's" demands and then some, received a bigger tips from those people. As one frequent customer who was notorious put it to me, "all of these people are idiots and can never get it right."
If everyone treated it the way I did, no tipping would be just as effective as over-tipping, both to indicate poor performance or exceeding expectations, obviously respectively.
However, people are stupid. I don't expect the world to be perfect. I will continue to over-tip regardless of performance because I care more about making my wife happy than "teachin that idiot a lesson." 😄
Originally posted by inimalist
Now, personality differences are important, and as you said, to you getting what you perceived as an "under-tip" made you try harder. That is awesome. However, I know for a fact it doesn't work that way with me [and I am NOT saying that this is better by any means...], and, not to sound all pompous, that might say more about how you rationalize failure to yourself than about any real behavioural changes.
Except, "under-tipped" or "no-tip" is covered in the basic training for being a server. Of course, they probably preface it with "now, this isn't always the case"...but my training, as well as all of the newbs got the ol' "if they didn't leave a tip or they left a small tip, evaluate what you did and try to improve on it."
The first day for servers comprised of HOW to get the biggest tip possible and the do's and don'ts. For things to be that standardized, I would think it's not the way [i]i[/] particularly think.