The Comedian vs. Ozymandias

Saying that that's the way it works doesn't change the above fact.

I do...It's called neuromuscular facilitation...Something very important in martial arts and one of the reasons that masters of them are far better even when old than many people many years their junior are.

Sure, experience does make you a better fighter, but you have no evidence, from the films, that he got any better or any worse.

Nor do you for vice-versa which is why, i guess, you're saying the debate is pointless.

If you can find in my post where I stated or implied that every person over the age of 25 will lose to a person under the age of 25, in a fight, I'll show you where you didn't understand my post.

You're the one who said that people beyond 25 start deteriorating physically are you not?

Ozy is 15 years younger than the Comedian.

You intially said that Comedian is 67

Here's the post

Is there any evidence that Vedit improved as he got older? Surely at 67, the comedian was less than his 35 year old self.

Veidt is supposed to be mid 40's so we'll say 46 (his birth year is supposed to be 1939)...

67-46 is 21 years difference...Not 15.

If you're implying that Comedian was 35 at his best when he beat Ozy then that's 32 years earlier...If Ozy is 45 then he would've been 13 when Comedian beat him...So a 35 year old man beating up a 13 year old kid. Not really difficult for anyone that, is it?

Still...according to watchmen wiki he was born in 1924...making him 61, not 67...this would either make him 29 when he beat Ozy or make Ozy 19. Still a young man and still likely to get an ass whupping relatively easily.

Actually we'll take the whole thing from the top...He was born in 1924

He became a "costumed adventurer" in 1939 at 15.

He tried to rape SSI the next year when he was 16.

In 41 he was stabbed and severely injured by a "hoodlum"....at 17

He met SSI again in 1948 when he was 24

Given that he was supposed to have beaten Ozy during the "under the hood" story which was in the run up to Nite Owl becoming a masked hero and the formation of the minutemen as well as some following stories. Chapter V deals with the rise of Ozy and is set in the 60's making Ozy anything between 21 and 30 when he lost to Comedian.

Now...When the later fight came about it should be noted that Comedian was still active and government sanctioned after the Keene act and so was still practicing his skills.

Ozy, on the other hand retired in 1975 at the age of 36 which means he should've been way out of practice when he beat the Comedian.

Of course all of this is from the graphic novels which differ from the film greatly.

In the novels the difference is 15 years between them. In the films it's 21.

Bit too ****ed up to try and work everything out from that though so yeah...I guess we'll just give up on it.

I still stand by the fact that if you go solely on the basis of what you see on screen then Ozy is better at his oldest age in the film than what the Comedian is at any age in the film.

Originally posted by Robtard
Then Ozy would be 21 years younger; not 15.

Unless you two are discussing strictly the comic, which is pointless here, for this battle.

Right. That makes Ozy 1 year older than when he was in the comic, based off of my estimate. That makes Jaden's case even worse.

Originally posted by jaden101
I do...It's called neuromuscular facilitation...Something very important in martial arts and one of the reasons that masters of them are far better even when old than many people many years their junior are.

You mean kinesthetic (proprioceptic) adaptation, don't you? 😖hifty: (I used to be a personal trainer.)

We can pontificate all day on this. It still does NOT change the fact that:

Originally posted by dadudemon
You don't have evidence that that "experience" made him better at fighting, and you don't know that The Comedian wasn't a shadow of his former self OR every bit as potent as his young self.

Prove that Veidt obtained an increase in fighting ability OR, prove that Comedian did NOT digress in ability at a ripe age of 67.

Originally posted by jaden101
Nor do you for vice-versa which is why, i guess, you're saying the debate is pointless.

Yes, that's exactly what I said in that section you just replied to.

You're the one who said that people beyond 25 start deteriorating physically are you not?

Originally posted by jaden101
You intially said that Comedian is 67

Here's the post

Veidt is supposed to be mid 40's so we'll say 46 (his birth year is supposed to be 1939)...

67-46 is 21 years difference...Not 15.

If you're implying that Comedian was 35 at his best when he beat Ozy then that's 32 years earlier...If Ozy is 45 then he would've been 13 when Comedian beat him...So a 35 year old man beating up a 13 year old kid. Not really difficult for anyone that, is it?

Still...according to watchmen wiki he was born in 1924...making him 61, not 67...this would either make him 29 when he beat Ozy or make Ozy 19. Still a young man and still likely to get an ass whupping relatively easily.

Actually we'll take the whole thing from the top...He was born in 1924

He became a "costumed adventurer" in 1939 at 15.

He tried to rape SSI the next year when he was 16.

In 41 he was stabbed and severely injured by a "hoodlum"....at 17

He met SSI again in 1948 when he was 24

Given that he was supposed to have beaten Ozy during the "under the hood" story which was in the run up to Nite Owl becoming a masked hero and the formation of the minutemen as well as some following stories. Chapter V deals with the rise of Ozy and is set in the 60's making Ozy anything between 21 and 30 when he lost to Comedian.

Now...When the later fight came about it should be noted that Comedian was still active and government sanctioned after the Keene act and so was still practicing his skills.

Ozy, on the other hand retired in 1975 at the age of 36 which means he should've been way out of practice when he beat the Comedian.

Of course all of this is from the graphic novels which differ from the film greatly.

In the novels the difference is 15 years between them. In the films it's 21.

Bit too ****ed up to try and work everything out from that though so yeah...I guess we'll just give up on it.

I still stand by the fact that if you go solely on the basis of what you see on screen then Ozy is better at his oldest age in the film than what the Comedian is at any age in the film.

lol

You posted all of that to arrive at the same thing I arrived at.

Ozy was 20 or 21 (Depending how you measure. One could turn one age before the other) when he lost to Comedian IF Comedian was 35 when he beat Ozy. This is how I arrived at my guestimation of 35 for Comedian...based on the biography and how the time lines worked.

Prove that Veidt obtained an increase in fighting ability

Already argued my case for it. Your non acceptance of it doesn't change the truth of it.

Ozy was 20 or 21 (Depending how you measure. One could turn one age before the other) when he lost to Comedian IF Comedian was 35 when he beat Ozy. This is how I arrived at my guestimation of 35 for Comedian...based on the biography and how the time lines worked.

Yeah if they'd stuck to the comic book ages and timelines it would've been easier to work out who did what to who and when.

Alas it's ****ing typical that film makers cvnt around with things.

Originally posted by jaden101
Already argued my case for it. Your non acceptance of it doesn't change the truth of it.

You mean you made baseless assumptions with no movie evidence?

Originally posted by jaden101
Yeah if they'd stuck to the comic book ages and timelines it would've been easier to work out who did what to who and when.

Alas it's ****ing typical that film makers cvnt around with things.

Indeed.

And, I apologize for thinking you were off form. I didn't know you were inebriated. 😆

When I debate with you, I expected to get my ass handed to me on some points. It's your fault, you know. You've built yourself up to high expectations.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You mean you made baseless assumptions with no movie evidence?

Don't be an idiot, Jaden's claim wasn't "baseless".

Assuming Veidt's fighting ability increased with time/experience is logical, considering he started crime fighting in his late teens/early twenties and stopped sometime in his 30's.

You mean you made baseless assumptions with no movie evidence?

It's not baseless assumption that martial arts experts improve because of practice due to muscle memory. It's a fact.

And, I apologize for thinking you were off form. I didn't know you were inebriated.

I'm Scottish...I'm almost always inebriated.

When I debate with you, I expected to get my ass handed to me on some points. It's your fault, you know. You've built yourself up to high expectations.

My knowledge of Watchmen is limited. I've only read the novel once a long time ago and i've only seen the film twice, the 1st of which was an extremely poor copy of a cam-job with an out of sync audio and so that's the only reason I watched it for a 2nd time. (Because Robtard sent me a decent copy).

Originally posted by Robtard
Don't be an idiot, Jaden's claim wasn't "baseless".

Assuming Veidt's fighting ability increased with time/experience is logical, considering he started crime fighting in his late teens/early twenties and stopped sometime in his 30's.

Emphasis on "with no movie evidence?"

And, I've already brought up another point that counters that: Veidt, being the extreme genius he is, would master those things far faster than anyone else. It is far more likely that he hit his fighting peak in his 20s along with his physical peak, in his 20s, than he did as a 46-year-old man.

Originally posted by jaden101
It's not baseless assumption that martial arts experts improve because of practice due to muscle memory. It's a fact.

Originally posted by jaden101
I'm Scottish...I'm almost always inebriated.

😆

True, that's my fault for not thinking.

Originally posted by jaden101
My knowledge of Watchmen is limited. I've only read the novel once a long time ago and i've only seen the film twice, the 1st of which was an extremely poor copy of a cam-job with an out of sync audio and so that's the only reason I watched it for a 2nd time. (Because Robtard sent me a decent copy).

I read the comics from my Uncle's set back in the early 90s. He had the comics and not the later released novel...so his were the original format.

I also was what...9 or 10?

I also saw the movie once, in the theatre.

If I make factual mistakes, which I am prone to, you must also forgive them. 😆

Yet hands on experience matters, actual fighting is better experience than shadow boxing.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yet hands on experience matters, actual fighting is better experience than shadow boxing.

So, he didn't get any fighting experience in when he was crime fighting before meeting up with Comedian to lose?

AHA!

Still, you can't gimp his extreme intellect. His intelligence would have allowed him to learn and adapt MUCH faster than any other person except for Manhattan.

I'll concede that it's not baseless if you concede the validity of my counter-point.

Never compromise...Even in the face of armageddon.

😛

And, I've already brought up another point that counters that: Veidt, being the extreme genius he is, would master those things far faster than anyone else. It is far more likely that he hit his fighting peak in his 20s along with his physical peak, in his 20s, than he did as a 46-year-old man.

Muscle memory isn't about brain power. Granted he would learn the techniques quicker but that doesn't mean he could execute the techniques as fluently or as well as he would with years of practice.

Look at all the martial arts masters. Mas Oyama, Yip Man, Morihei Ueshiba, Gichin Funakoshi and Hirokazu Kanazawa. All of them were old men who could easily beat younger yet still highly trained experts.

Originally posted by dadudemon
So, he didn't get any fighting experience in when he was crime fighting before meeting up with Comedian to lose?

AHA!

Still, you can't gimp his extreme intellect. His intelligence would have allowed him to learn and adapt MUCH faster than any other person except for Manhattan.

In the comic, Vedit had just started out; was still a rookie, while Comedian had over a decade of ass-kicking experience under his rapist belt.

Veidt implies this is the reason why Comedian knocked him on his ass, because he was still green, that and a 'great feint and devastating uppercut' from Comedian.

Probably, or maybe his extreme intellect just mattered in the academic realm and marketing.

due to the fact that ozymandias was beating people down with arches or whatever,and comedian was mostly using weapons,and the fact that despite his great condition as the police stated,he still got pwned by ozymandias,i'll say ozzy wins

Originally posted by Robtard
In the comic, Vedit had just started out; was still a rookie, while Comedian had over a decade of ass-kicking experience under his rapist belt.

Veidt implies this is the reason why Comedian knocked him on his ass, because he was still green, that and a 'great feint and devastating uppercut' from Comedian.

Probably, or maybe his extreme intellect just mattered in the academic realm and marketing.

So, that would put Comedian at 35, then, when he beat Ozy?

Originally posted by dadudemon
So, that would put Comedian at 35, then, when he beat Ozy?

Somewhere in his mid-thirties, so that's a fair guess.

Originally posted by Robtard
Somewhere in his mid-thirties, so that's a fair guess.

Not bad, on my part, for not having read the comic in more than a decade.

*Struts his stuff*

I didn't read the comic book but from what I heard about it and read online. The Comedian didn't even try to fight back but in the film he tried. Also, Veidt ambushed The Comedian in his home while he was chilling watching TV in a robe, smoking a cigar and drinking. Also, Veidt had studied The Comedian for a long time before they fought the 2nd time AND I did hear that in the the book that Hollis Mason wrote "Under The Hood" that he or Silk Spectre said that Ozy never got over the beating Comedian gave him. The comic book states that Comedian beat him and therefore the film holds no weight to the graphic novel. ALSO in the movie when all of them was at the meeting. Comedian punked Ozy and had him under pressure before he burned his map. You could see that Ozy didn't even want to look at the Comedian in his eyes OR confront him.