Originally posted by Wolverine2179WOW is already a joke. As for kotor, I agree, it was surpassed, by pretty much kotor with a different name. Mass effect=same same developers and a writer from star wars.
So far i believe that kotor has been surpassed by mass effect, made by the same game developer and written by the same guy that wrote the bane books.Kotor 1 was pretty good, but kotor 2 was dissapointing at the end.
Kotor 2 had so much potential but thanks to impatient lucasfarts, the game got cut in half.
But i have a feeling that the old republic might vastly surpass kotor and make a joke out of WOW(i played that game, i tell you its decent
, but its not THAT good, its super overrated)
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
Needless to say, noobaris is [b]WRONG. Japanese rpgs are coupled with bad graphics, bad physics, and they rarely have anything to do with star wars. Kotor is considered by many to be the best rpg ever made. [/B]
And those many people are wrong.
For one, at its very core concept, KotOR can objectively be seen to fail.
It's yet another Western RPG with a heavy emphasis on player choice and being able to influence the game world and the storyline and the role your character takes in that game world; it essentially attempts to replicate the role playing game experience that you can find in table top/message board role playing games in a format that is not capable of adequately supporting that core concept (the single player story based video game format).
And the reason for that is that everything in the game is ultimately predetermined by the video game developers; you get to make choices but this does not create the same sense of individuality between player and character like it does in a table top RPG for instance, because while there, you choose exactly how your player behaves with no real limitations but your own imagination and the laws of the game setting (in essence you are your character), here, you, the player, are presented with choices that you get to make; these choices do not originate with you, the player, but the game itself; the choices are generally far too limited and imprecise (in KotOR's case specifically the choices almost always mirrored a generic good, evil, or neutral viewpoint; no middle ground and most certainly not necessarily in accordance with the player's personality or mannerisms), and you generally always follow a predetermined path (that there are two in KotOR does little to create the illusion that your choices are meaningful and making a real difference).
In short, the limitations of the choice making system prevent you from truly feeling like the driving force behind your character; you're simply pushing your character through one of a number of predetermined paths put in by the developers.
Japanese RPGs on the other hand place a clear emphasis on storyline; as an RPG in a format that prevents you from retaining anywhere near to full control over your character's should do. You, the player, are the audience to the storyline, much like you would be with a movie or a book, and the level of storyline immersion allows you, the player, to literally escape into the role of your character. You are drawn into the role of the character, not by controlling your character, which doesn't work in the format, but by escaping into his world through the storyline presented before you.
Not to mention, beyond what conceptually fails and succeeds, Western game developers at best tell extremely average storylines that can perhaps favourable compare with the kind of storylines you may find in a slightly above average movie or novel, whereas Eastern game developers tell the most phenomenal storylines you can find anywhere in any storytelling medium, with incredible, original music to boot.
In KotOR's case, the fact that the writing team have to split their creativity through a number of different storyline paths doesn't exactly maximise the quality of the storyline you'll find in any given path either. Nor does it suit completionists who like to experience any given activity in its entirety.
And the same is the case with Mass Effect. Really, Path of Destruction told a better story than either Mass Effect or Knights of the Old Republic, and nobody's going to try and argue that it tells a story comparable to the likes of Xenogears or Baten Kaitos.
Really, it's no longer a matter of subjectivity when it can conceptually be seen to fail. KotOR (and Mass Effect and the majority of Bioware's RPGs) is objectively a very poor RPG.
Originally posted by ApoIIoCloud
Really, it's no longer a matter of subjectivity when it can conceptually be seen to fail. KotOR (and Mass Effect and the majority of Bioware's RPGs) is objectively a very poor RPG. [/B]
Bioware improved on their story telling from Kotor 1 (and especially their dialogue) with Jade Empire and Mass Effect. And will likely continue to improve their story telling with Mass Effect 2.
I personally favor Jade Empire as their best rpg - from a story telling perspective- to date. Mass Effec was an improvement with dialogue etc but they went backwards with their barren planet missions.
As far as your argument over WRPGS and JRPGS how can it be anything but subjective? You talk about the multiple paths reducing the story telling potential in Bio Ware's games (I agree that is one of the weaknesses of Bioware's games, side quests and the like) but then you include all WRPG's?
Look at the Elder scrolls games. The faction quests in Oblivion were massive and told very expansive stories of their own. Not forgetting the amount of lore that is in games like Elder Scrolls, Vampire the Masquerade, Gothic, etc You can't be speaking about all WRPGS.
From a story telling perspective I thought it was terrific. And the dialogue was definitely an improvement over Kotor. The combat could have been better, maybe they should have worked with Team Ninja or a similar company to get the martials combat right.
Overall I thought Mass Effect was superior but for the terrible inclusion of the repetitive barren planets.
Looking at what an RPG is supposed to do via its very definition: to draw the player into the role of the character, that KotOR's very concept and emphasis relies on a mechanic that can objectively be seen to not in any way achieve that should adequately substantiate how it fails as an RPG. Mass Effect and most of Bioware's RPGs are the same. I'm pretty confident I could develop a superior RPG than those fools.
By multiple paths I meant that the storyline can branch into multiple, variable paths depending on the choices that you make (side quests are fine and help establish the "norm" of the setting which adds to the general atmosphere of the game).
And the likes of the Fallout and Elder Scrolls games suffer from another, significant flaw: slow moving storylines that lack direction with a heavy gameplay emphasis, particularly on exploration. Gameplay is essentially the divide between player and character; its the component of the video game format that highlights that the player is actually playing a game, not escaping into the role that the character takes in the game's storyline, and slow moving plot lines only detract from the immersive storyline element which is fundamental to the RPG.
When I play a JRPG I know I'm experiencing a work of art; a masterpiece. When I play a WRPG I know I'm experiencing something that is fundamentally average at best and conceptually a failure in most cases. Really, I'd submit that its the very worst genre of video gaming.
To be honest, KOTOR isn't what it's hyped up to be. It's good, but not "uber ultra best RPG evar!!!!!!" Although maybe I just need to advance further in order to get the thrills...
It makes no sense though that Revan, Bastilla and that redeemed dark jed/sith together have trouble taking on a wild animal.
I don't see how you can you can put down one genre for attempting to do something (that you claim is essential to the genre) and then turn around and praise another for not even attempting that something. And although naturally the roleplaying aspect of the games are not perfect, but they are a damn sight better than JRPG's. When I'm playing a jrpg there is always a feeling of separateness from the character I'm playing as, becuase simply put, that character is not me. I have not molded that character, not chosen what it has said, heck sometimes I even have no control of their fighting abilities. I know that I'm not playing as me, that isn't me on the screen, that is some other dipshit. That is why jrpgs fail as a medium, they fail in making the character become the main character, in having the player create a wonderful story with their own hands, no matter how small of an input they have. That is what an RPG is about. Not the story-line, the characters. Creating a character and having it interact with a pre-set world. It is not a pale imitation of a table-top game, it is a platform-based version. You claim that it fails becuase it cannot offer the absolute freedom of the DnD boardgames, when even these did not do such a thing. Did you not have to choose from a pre-set list of races to create your character? Pre-set mission? Feats? Weapon? Etc? Yes. You are telling us that they fail in something they didn't even try to do. That my friend, is a sign of bias, which you obviously suffer from.
JRPG's attempt to be books, to tell an epic tale with soaring heights and harrowing lows, but they are not books, they are games. You said that gameplay and combat etc was the worst point of the games, but you fail to see that they are GAMES. If you want to have that sort of thing go read an book or watch a movie. Gameplay is one of the most, if not The most essential aspect of a game, its the reason why its a goddamn game and not one of those things, its why people buy the game in the first place, why it was made as a game. You are too hung up on just one aspect of a much greater whole. Is the story important? Yes. Is the gameplay important? Yes. A brain cannot survive without a body. A story cannot exist without its game. Deal with it.
Originally posted by AllanklesWell mass effect 2, according to bioware isn't going to have reptitice barren planets.
From a story telling perspective I thought it was terrific. And the dialogue was definitely an improvement over Kotor. The combat could have been better, maybe they should have worked with Team Ninja or a similar company to get the martials combat right.Overall I thought Mass Effect was superior but for the terrible inclusion of the repetitive barren planets.
The trailers of ME2 remind of of ROTS and TESB.
kotor doesn't draw you in? maybe because you don't see a similarity between you and the main characters.
That's why you play games involving over dressed spiky haired, girly eyed hermaphrodites with effeminite bodies and compensating swords.
Whereas western rpgs you almost always use a logically sized weapon, you play a human looking character, and very often you are fighting realistic enemies.
A jrpg is NOT immersive by any stretch of the imagination. Sorry noobaris.
I liked in kotor how I was able to chose what my character said and did and my allignment shifted according to that. I hated in oblivion (and all jrpgs) you are forced to stick to their script and do what the game designer thinks you should.
for instance: in oblivion (and all jrpgs) I wanted to kill martin septim, join forces with the oblivion people, become king, and rule tamriel with an iron fist going from place to place kicking ass and chewing gum. Games which do not allow you to improv the script, ultimately fail immersively because I don't feel the character has become me.
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~Bingo. Oblivion's biggest flaw. At least Fallout 3 improved on that (somewhat). Still a fun game though.
for instance: in oblivion (and all jrpgs) I wanted to kill martin septim, join forces with the oblivion people, become king, and rule tamriel with an iron fist going from place to place kicking ass and chewing gum. Games which do not allow you to improv the script, ultimately fail immersively because I don't feel the character has become me.