Well, here's my problem. he doesn't BECOME the villain... he is already like that from the start of AOTC. And we don't really understand why he is like that. Except taht he is whiny, arrogant, self centered etc.... But we don't get why he has become this way. There is no development, except that he gets more powerful. But characterwise he remains unaltered.
Originally posted by queeq
Well, here's my problem. he doesn't BECOME the villain... he is already like that from the start of AOTC. And we don't really understand why he is like that. Except taht he is whiny, arrogant, self centered etc.... But we don't get why he has become this way. There is no development, except that he gets more powerful. But characterwise he remains unaltered.
I really can't believe that. Being selfish and braty doesn't make him villainous. It makes him selfish and braty. And I'd have to disagree that there wasn't any development. His mother dies, he gets pissed, and slaughters a camp of sandpeople, who are killers and marauders. He makes his first trek over to the darkside here, and it seems pretty eerie when he admits to killing the women and children. Some would say that Padme should have shun him for this (and she does seem deeply disturbed by his behavior) but why should she have any sympathy for ruthless beings such as tuskan raiders? Especially those who abused Anakin's mother to death? The only wrong Anakin did here is he lets himself be consumed by his anger and goes too far, acting on his emotions. Does this make him Vader all of a sudden? You may say yes, but I don't think it does. This is merely the first trek down that path. The seed starts to sprout, but still has a little ways to go before it becomes a fully grown plant. And yet, after all this, Anakin berates himself by saying, "I am a Jedi. I know I'm better than this." He even prevents Dooku from striking Obi-wan down later on. If he was truly Vader, why prevent Dooku from killing Obi-wan?
He doesn't only do evil, but to me there is little difference between his slaughter of the Tuskens and the Younglings... well, his emotional state was a little different. After killing the Tuskens he justifies himself and no one corrects him, not even Padme. And the 'berating himself' I consider as more whining... "why is OB1 holding me back, I want more, I should be better than this, they don't trust me, if you are not with me you're against me, I should be the greatest Jedi ever, blahdeeblahdeeblah.." He sounds like an adolescent that never grows up (unlike his son Luke for that matter!).
So to me the whiny Anakin that justifies his bad deeds in AOTC is not so much different from the Anakin slaughtering younglings and that is basically Darth Vader.
The sad thing about this all is that Lucas wanted to tell the story how a 'good man that was your father' made certain choices to become the evil "more machine than man" Darth Vader. Now, that's a very good theme, that allows for spectacular as well as extremely dramatic movie series. When Lucas started, he always said it had to do with choices people made. Now... I don't see Anakin make a lot of choices. I see the grumpy angry kid not change, the only choices he really makes is marry Padme against the rules (in a rather terribly flawed love story) and to follow Sidious (in a terribly flawed turn to the dark side scene). So he does bad stuff and the choices don't influence his character or behaviour... he does that because he wants to. Not because he is forced, not because he tries not to, not because people force him or whatever... he just does it. I don't see the choices that make him bad... I just see he's bad from the beginning and that is why he makes these choices. Quite the reverse from what Lucas intended.
Originally posted by queeq
He doesn't only do evil, but to me there is little difference between his slaughter of the Tuskens and the Younglings... well, his emotional state was a little different. After killing the Tuskens he justifies himself and no one corrects him, not even Padme. And the 'berating himself' I consider as more whining... "why is OB1 holding me back, I want more, I should be better than this, they don't trust me, if you are not with me you're against me, I should be the greatest Jedi ever, blahdeeblahdeeblah.." He sounds like an adolescent that never grows up (unlike his son Luke for that matter!).So to me the whiny Anakin that justifies his bad deeds in AOTC is not so much different from the Anakin slaughtering younglings and that is basically Darth Vader.
The sad thing about this all is that Lucas wanted to tell the story how a 'good man that was your father' made certain choices to become the evil "more machine than man" Darth Vader. Now, that's a very good theme, that allows for spectacular as well as extremely dramatic movie series. When Lucas started, he always said it had to do with choices people made. Now... I don't see Anakin make a lot of choices. I see the grumpy angry kid not change, the only choices he really makes is marry Padme against the rules (in a rather terribly flawed love story) and to follow Sidious (in a terribly flawed turn to the dark side scene). So he does bad stuff and the choices don't influence his character or behaviour... he does that because he wants to. Not because he is forced, not because he tries not to, not because people force him or whatever... he just does it. I don't see the choices that make him bad... I just see he's bad from the beginning and that is why he makes these choices. Quite the reverse from what Lucas intended.
There is a huge difference between the killing of the Tuskens and of the younglings. The Tuskens were armed, trained and very efficient killing machines in their own right. The younglings, while dangerous in their own rights, were, well...younglings who posed no threat. The Tuskens killed his mother and countless others. This was one of those decisions that led him to go to the dark side later on - showing his tendencies. And who would have questioned Anakin for doign it? Lars? Not a chance, I'm sure he wanted them deas just as much. Padme isn't a Jedi so I could see her understanding (it was his mother, after all, the only person who really cared for him for the longest time). I haven't seen the movie in a while, but I don't remember them going to the council and bragging about his slaughter. I do agree that he was whining in those scenes.
I think it was extremely clear that Anakin was, indeed, the "good man that was Luke's father." He was a hero of the Republic, respected by the troops he was with, if I recall and OB1's padawan and then a Jedi Knight for the duration of the war who performed miraculous feats for the Republic (see Grievous' flagship) and clearly demonstrated his heroic and courageous tendencies (see RotS where he wanted to go and save those pilots instead of continue with the mission and was bothered when OB1 made him do otherwise). They don't come out and slap you in the face and say "hey, Anakin is a good guy and here is a comprehensive list of why he is so." They don't need to. If he wasn't a good guy, he would have war crimes, he would be reprimanded by the Council, etc. There is no way that he was "bad from the beginning." I see you as a movie "expert", queeq, so it bothers me that you don't seem capable of reading between the lines and picking out details from the movie unless they slap you in the face with it. Luke does just as many rash moves in the OT that Anakin did in the PT (see ESB when he left Yoda; see RotJ where he goes to the planet to help Han and co. when he knows he shouldn't; see RotJ when he used his anger to defeat Vader - so it's OK for him to dip into the dark side for his benefits?; etc.).
Luke is LEARNING in ESB, and only a few months. Anakin is a fully trained JEDI KNIGHT in ROTS that passed the trials. There is a huge difference.
He is hero, but WE as viewers see what what he really does, including the secret stuff people who consider him a hero do not see. Let's list his achievements in AOTC and ROTS (not counting TPM because he was just a little kid who did most things by accident):
1. Complains about his master
2. Disobeys his master (in public) several times And right from the start)
3. Clumsily seduces Padme - against Jedi Code
4. Complains to Padme about the kiss she should not have given him, while it was he who kissed Padme (has no self reflection)
5. Disobeys Jedi Council order to stay on Naboo
6. Slaughters unexpecting Tuskens who are no match for him, not just the men but the women and the children
7. Disbobeys Jedi Council orders and goes on a rescue mission to Geonosis and gets captured (sure Padme lured him into that but he wasn't really resisting)
8. Disobeys OB1 in Dooku fight and loses arm
9. Gets married against Jedi Code
10. Kills unarmed Dooku - against Jedi Code
11. Complains more about OB1 and Council
12. Takes side against Jedi Council in favour of non-Jedi Palpatine
13. Disobeys Mace by staying behind
14. Cuts of Mace's hands allowing him to get killed
13. Becomes Darth Vader and acts more like that
So tell me? Where is the great hero? Where is the "the good man" Anakin?
The problem is, G, you seek justification of Anakin "by reading between the lines" and by picking out a few details. I look at this film and consider what I see ON SCREEN.... which is where the movie story takes place: in actions (be it arguments, fights, acts, dialogue)... and the actions say only one thing: Anakin is bad news... there's nothing good about this guy. The only good thing is that he doesn't entirely turn to the Dark Side until he actually does.
Originally posted by queeq
Luke is LEARNING in ESB, and only a few months. Anakin is a fully trained JEDI KNIGHT in ROTS that passed the trials. There is a huge difference.He is hero, but WE as viewers see what what he really does, including the secret stuff people who consider him a hero do not see. Let's list his achievements in AOTC and ROTS (not counting TPM because he was just a little kid who did most things by accident):
1. Complains about his master - Who doesn't complain about their job once in a while or their boss? We just happened to see him do it. This is also part of the Jedi's fears of training him at such a late age - Anakin was not used to the Jedi life and he had a wife to talk to about such things.
2. Disobeys his master (in public) several times And right from the start) Yes, but look at the reasons he did this for. Some of which are outlined below. It's not like he was disobeying an order to save someone and instead chose to do something else.
3. Clumsily seduces Padme - against Jedi Code Anakin as a failed romantic should not be counted against him
4. Complains to Padme about the kiss she should not have given him, while it was he who kissed Padme (has no self reflection) No self reflection? Did you not see the Mustafar scene in RotS with him crying as he knew what he had done? The scene after the Tusken slaughter? He knew what he did and he blamed himself for it.
5. Disobeys Jedi Council order to stay on Naboo. Again...how does this make him a bad person? He's on the same level as Darth Vader because he wants to spend time with someone he trule cares for?
6. Slaughters unexpecting Tuskens who are no match for him, not just the men but the women and the children Yes. And I've admitted that this was a sign of what was to come in that his anger can get the best of him and he should have been able to control himself or handled the situation in a better manner. Regardless, look at why he did it - he did so to save his mother, whom was a slave to them and treated witht he utmost of harshnes. I don't think that reason makes him a bad character. I wouldn't call someone a bad person because they wanted to save their mother.
7. Disbobeys Jedi Council orders and goes on a rescue mission to Geonosis and gets captured (sure Padme lured him into that but he wasn't really resisting). To save his MASTER. Again, he's a bad person because he's willing to put himself in personal risk to save those he cares about? If he hadn't have gone...things may not have looked to bright for OB1.
8. Disobeys OB1 in Dooku fight and loses arm. Yes, he acted very rashly and used his anger. Yet another step towards the dark side
9. Gets married against Jedi Code. Getting married makes one a bad person? We can't think of Anakin as the same as every other Jedi. He's not. And the Jedi Council don't even treat him as such. He gets many special privileges. He is different from the rest of the Jedi and has some different values.
10. Kills unarmed Dooku - against Jedi Code. Yes, and this was bad. He was an unarmed prisoner. Does that make Mace Windu a bad person? In RotS he was going to strike down Sidious - an unarmed prisoner. Dooku had very similar abilities to Sidious. While Sidious may have been MORE dangerous than Dooku as a prisoner. Dooku was most certainly a dangerous prisoner.
11. Complains more about OB1 and Council. Are you a bad person, queeq, because you complain about the PT so much?
12. Takes side against Jedi Council in favour of non-Jedi Palpatine. This is Anakin analysing his options. The Jedi offered him nothing for Padme. Palps did. And, in his head, he had just killed Mace Windu - a very prominent Jedi Master. He wasn't trying to kill him, he just wanted to stop him from striking Palps down, but Palps killed him. Anakin felt he had gone too far.
13. Disobeys Mace by staying behind. You mean by not staying behind? It's a good thing he did go. Mace is allowed to kill an unarmed prisoner but Anakin isn't? Both Dooku and Palps were extremely dangerous, even as prisoners. All Mace had to do to keep Anakin from going to the dark side was take Palps into custody. MACE choose to strike him down. Anakin needed reassurance that the Jedi were still the good guys. Striking down unarmed prisoners was against the Jedi Code, showing that Mace, a very prominent figure, was himself corrupt.
14. Cuts of Mace's hands allowing him to get killed His intention was not to kill Mace. If Mace had been on the flagship with Anakin and Dooku, I'm thinking Mace would have done the same thing to Anakin to stop him killing Dookue, an unarmed prisoner. Why are there double standards between Mace and Anakin?
13. Becomes Darth Vader and acts more like that. Yes, becoming Darth Vader did indeed make him a bad guy.
So tell me? Where is the great hero? Where is the "the good man" Anakin?
The problem is, G, you seek justification of Anakin "by reading between the lines" and by picking out a few details. I look at this film and consider what I see ON SCREEN.... which is where the movie story takes place: in actions (be it arguments, fights, acts, dialogue)... and the actions say only one thing: Anakin is bad news... there's nothing good about this guy. The only good thing is that he doesn't entirely turn to the Dark Side until he actually does.
No, I watch the movie and I see everything that is on screen and what is said and, from that, I can pull the hero and good person that OB1 refers to in ESB who is Anakin Skywalker. You can clearly see that the Tusken slaughter eats away at his conscience, as well as the slaughter of the younglings (see him on Mustafar after ending the war). Personally, I don't believe Sidious would give either act a second thought. Anakin blames himself for his mother's death as he was not able to save her. He swore he would not do the same for Padme. He would not lose her the way he lost his mother. He saw corruption in the Jedi and found, to him at least, the most likely way to save her - Sidious. The Jedi offered nothing for him for Padme. They said to accept it and move on; don't be attached to anything. Sidious at least gave him hope of saving her.
To say that there is nothing good about this guy is jus tbeing completely ignorant to the movies. So a bad guy would want to save those under him rather than continue the mission (again, see RotS Coruscant space battle); would a bad guy go to such lengths, ignoring the pleas of the Chancellor, to save his master? Would a bad guy go and turn the Chancellor in to the Jedi? Would a bad guy go and try and save his mother, ignoring the wishes of the Jedi Council? There are honestly so many examples of Anakin being a hero and a good guy that I can't believe you to be making the statement you did.
I do believe there is a sense of WANTING to be good in Anakin... But his only measure is himself. I don't SEE him do a lot of good, I don't SEE his conscience being eaten away either. I see and hear him blaming everyone but himself...
Saving his mother is his attachment from the past, we know that was his weak spot. But it is his attachment, going after her shows lack of judgement in the end because trying to save her does bring him closer to his utter fall. That attempt of saving his mother just pushed him closer to his fall...
I will not go very deep into that whole turn in of the Chancellor againbecause those scenes are so sill, inconsistent that show more bad deeds that good ones (he doesn't want to kill him because he is unarmed and agains Jedi Code (he had no trouble with Tusken children and Dooku), he turns him but disobeys Mace, he follows and cuts Mace's arms off, says "what have I done" but submits himself to Sidious anyway so his wife can live (but she dies BECAUSE he turns), but when Sidious he doesn't know how to save people from death he goes along and kills more kids... WTF????).
So at best Anakin is someone who doesn't want to be bad... but since we mostly SEE him do bad things and we SEE show bad judgment and we SEE him disregard his masters' advice, we can only conclude that Anakin was always going down the dark path... and once you start down that path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Anakin just didn't have it in him to change that path, nor did he want to see it. So he's a wanna-be good guy... but really he isn't. Not in the movies at least, the novelizations are kinder for his character.
Originally posted by queeq
I do believe there is a sense of WANTING to be good in Anakin... But his only measure is himself. I don't SEE him do a lot of good, I don't SEE his conscience being eaten away either. I see and hear him blaming everyone but himself...Saving his mother is his attachment from the past, we know that was his weak spot. But it is his attachment, going after her shows lack of judgement in the end because trying to save her does bring him closer to his utter fall. That attempt of saving his mother just pushed him closer to his fall...
Yes, his attachment and devotion to others is his weak spot, but how can you say that that makes him a bad character/person? That makes him a good person in just about every society. I don't think it is merely the fact that he goes after her that brings him closer to his downfall. I would say it is more the way in which he does so. He could have done it in another way which would have resulted in less bloodshed and more rational thinking by Anakin. If Anakin never went after his mother, then the audience would call him a heartless pr!ck and would have zero sympathy for him. More people can sympathise with someone who lost the only family member they had given Anakin's situation.
Originally posted by queeq
I will not go very deep into that whole turn in of the Chancellor againbecause those scenes are so sill, inconsistent that show more bad deeds that good ones (he doesn't want to kill him because he is unarmed and agains Jedi Code (he had no trouble with Tusken children and Dooku), he turns him but disobeys Mace, he follows and cuts Mace's arms off, says "what have I done" but submits himself to Sidious anyway so his wife can live (but she dies BECAUSE he turns), but when Sidious he doesn't know how to save people from death he goes along and kills more kids... WTF????).
This entire scene could have been done infitely better for sure. I will, though, go into more detail in this scene because you refuse to acknowledge any good deeds done by Anakin. He did have an issue with the Tusken children and women. You see that when he gets back when he talks with Padme. And he did have an issue with killing Dooku which he states when he is standing there with him at his mercy. "It's not the Jedi way." He gave into peer pressure by Palps. If only OB1 were still conscious, he would have talked Anakin out of it.
I've stated in my previous post why he disobeyed Mace and how it was good that he did disobey Mace. He cuts his arm off, not to kill him, but to stop him from striking down Sidious. ALL MAce had to do was take Sidious into custody with him. It was Mace who decided to strike him down. Why are there double standards between Mace and Anakin? By your logic, Mace is worse than Darth Vader. At least Anakin had regrets and personal turmoil over killing unarmed prisoners. Mace was just going to strike him down, showing Anakin that the Jedi were indeed corrupt.
The whole reason Padme died was because he turned to the dark side, yes, but he didn't know that. Anakin should have become much more cautious when Sidious said he didn't know how to save people from death, but he said they could figure it out together. This was still more of a guarantee than what the Jedi were giving Anakin. They promised him nothing to save her.
Originally posted by queeq
So at best Anakin is someone who doesn't want to be bad... but since we mostly SEE him do bad things and we SEE show bad judgment and we SEE him disregard his masters' advice, we can only conclude that Anakin was always going down the dark path... and once you start down that path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Anakin just didn't have it in him to change that path, nor did he want to see it. So he's a wanna-be good guy... but really he isn't. Not in the movies at least, the novelizations are kinder for his character.
We SEE Anakin do good things as well as bad. We SEE Anakin disregard his masters' advice in order to do good things. We both can agree that he was always going down the dark path. This was both a fault of his and the Councils' though. He's a wanna-be good guy. That statement I can get behind. The novelisations are important.
Originally posted by General G
you refuse to acknowledge any good deeds done by Anakin.
I do not. I question Anakin's motives. Anakin is focused only on himself, his own mother, his own girl... it's me me me. He did good things but that doesn't mean the PT portrays him unfortunately as an intrinsically bad person in the sense that he acts mainly in self interest and shows a very very poor sense of judgment.
Originally posted by General G
THe gave into peer pressure by Palps. If only OB1 were still conscious, he would have talked Anakin out of it.
That shows he has not matured, he's just an adolescent that cannot make sensible decisions without daddy... This proves how Anakin's mind works in these movies: he thinks only about himself. If no one corrects him, he fails miserably.
Originally posted by General G
The whole reason Padme died was because he turned to the dark side, yes, but he didn't know that.
He knew very well the lessons of Yoda, that attachment ultimately leads to suffering... But he chose to serve himself and brought this on himself.
Originally posted by General G
We SEE Anakin do good things as well as bad. We SEE Anakin disregard his masters' advice in order to do good things. We both can agree that he was always going down the dark path. This was both a fault of his and the Councils' though. He's a wanna-be good guy. That statement I can get behind. The novelisations are important.
We see him do a FEW good things... we see him do A LOT of bad things in a time when he is to be considered "a good man'. That is contradictory. His motives in AOTC and ROTS are howvere alwasy the same: it's only me me me... Good men do not only think of themselves... Anakin in these movies does.
Originally posted by queeq
I do not. I question Anakin's motives. Anakin is focused only on himself, his own mother, his own girl... it's me me me. He did good things but that doesn't mean the PT portrays him unfortunately as an intrinsically bad person in the sense that he acts mainly in self interest and shows a very very poor sense of judgment.
How can you say that he is focused only on himself while acknowledging the good things Anakin does in the movies? He went to save his mother from the Tuskens, not himself. he wasn't going to bring his mother back from Tatooine to Coruscant with him. He wanted to save her so she could finally live the happy life she deserved. He wanted to save his wife from death during childbirth. There is some selfish motive here, of course, being it's his wife, so of course he selfishly wants her to survive, that's why he married her - he cares deeply for her. He wanted to go off and save those Clone Troopers in the Coruscant space battle; he wanted to stop the ship on Geonosis to help Padme; he went to go and save his master on Geonosis instead of obeying the wishes of the Council at great personal risk. He is certainly no saint and he definitely has selfish tendencies, but he's not a bad person.
His decisions may be rash and not totally thought out, but the reasons for many of his decisions are inherently good.
Originally posted by queeq
That shows he has not matured, he's just an adolescent that cannot make sensible decisions without daddy... This proves how Anakin's mind works in these movies: he thinks only about himself. If no one corrects him, he fails miserably.
That doesn't show he hasn't matured. This war had been going on for three years. Millions have died as a result of Count Dooku. Comparing Anakin to a child in this case is just ignorant. Heroes on both sides of the conflict die every day and Dooku (while not shown in the movies, it can be assumed that) has escaped a few instances where the Republic may have closed in on him. Should OB1 have shot the staff from Grievous' hands and forced him to submit and then taken him back to Coruscant? What would Anakin have done with Dooku if he kept him alive? The ship turned upside down, if you recall, and Anakin was busy carrying Dooku. Nobody expected Dooku to survive the encounter against OB1 and Anakin. A necessary death.
Originally posted by queeq
He knew very well the lessons of Yoda, that attachment ultimately leads to suffering... But he chose to serve himself and brought this on himself.
Yes, and this is what Yoda was so worried about. Anakin was old enough that he had already gained attachments in the form of both his mother and a pretty queen. Tell me, queeq, if someone came up to you at that age and told you to forget your mother. Forget everybody that once mattered to you. How easy is that? It's not. He cared for these people. He can't just give them up cold turkey.
Originally posted by queeq
We see him do a FEW good things... we see him do A LOT of bad things in a time when he is to be considered "a good man'. That is contradictory. His motives in AOTC and ROTS are howvere alwasy the same: it's only me me me... Good men do not only think of themselves... Anakin in these movies does.
We see him do more than enough good deeds in order to back up OB1's statement that he was a good man.
Look, G, I see you reciting from the script... I just don't see it on screen. I know how theoretically all these things are supposed to be... but as I said: I don't see it up on the screen.
THe motives are weak, incomprehensible or downright not there. The attachement and age thing is a bit silly... for many centuries young women and children went to monasteries but in the christian as well as in the Asian world. Since the Jedi are based on Shaolin Monks, the comparison is not so weird. And yet, a great deal of them managed to devote their lives to their religion, living separate from their families. Anakin's obviously couldn't.
But here's the weird thing: if his mother meant so much to him, was there in those ten years never any time to go back??? That's what I mean: the motives are convoluted... And it's all over the place.
The large majority of Anakin's actions are disobedience or malcontent... the fact that he sometimes does a good deed, don't take away the fact that he is utterly selfish...All those horrible love scenes in AOTC on Naboo proves that: Anakin doesn't care about Padme's well being, he cares about having her. See the lies, the downright manipulation etc etc. And of course, her dying doesn't fit the picture of having her... of course he wants to prevent her from dying. And he is willing to kill his masters, the younglings and the entire universe to keep her. But when she turns against him in words only, he chokes his pregnant wife... yeah, really a guy who wants to do good... NOT. He didn't as Vader and he didn't as Vader and he didn't as Anakin.
Originally posted by General G
[B]There is a huge difference between the killing of the Tuskens and of the younglings. The Tuskens were armed, trained and very efficient killing machines in their own right. The younglings, while dangerous in their own rights, were, well...younglings who posed no threat. The Tuskens killed his mother and countless others. This was one of those decisions that led him to go to the dark side later on - showing his tendencies. And who would have questioned Anakin for doign it? Lars? Not a chance, I'm sure he wanted them deas just as much. Padme isn't a Jedi so I could see her understanding (it was his mother, after all, the only person who really cared for him for the longest time). I haven't seen the movie in a while, but I don't remember them going to the council and bragging about his slaughter. I do agree that he was whining in those scenes.
And BTW, you don't have to be a Jedi to see that slaughtering a group of people is a very bad thing.
I know I'm always late to the party, but I will try to make this quick.
I don't think Anakin's turn to the dark side was as rushed as it seemed. Let's remember this is a movie; how long do you expect it to be? The books are always more detailed. N E whoo, the key thing to think about when it comes to Anakin is his age. He WAS to old when they started training him. We all know from our own lives that at a certain age some things are just with you. He already knew how to love with ALL his heart by the time he started his training. There is a thin line between love and hate after all. His physical abilities as a Padawan and then Jedi Knight had him advancing quickly, but his immaturety held him back. Darth Sidious had a way with words and the power of the dark side also to aide in his persuasion. Pay attention to how his voice changes when he says certain things to Anakin; like when he told Anakin to kill Dooku. Anakin's love for Padmae mixed with his immature mind couldn't do anything but fall prey to Palpatine. I do understand that it would seem like Anakin should have been smarter, but Jedi Masters have years and years of experience training their minds without interference. Anakin wasn't a Jedi Master and had The Dark Lord of the Sith wispering in his ear from the begining; building his trust. ALL IMO.
Would love to hear what you think about this.
Originally posted by Charlie512
Ok. You just tried to justify the killing of an entire village of sentient beings. Men, women and children. Doesn't that bother you at all? In your quest to defend all things PT you should really look at yourself and see if you aren't going too far.And BTW, you don't have to be a Jedi to see that slaughtering a group of people is a very bad thing.
No, I didn't try and justify killing a village of living beings. Nowhere did I say it was OK for Anakin to do so and I actually said the opposite - it was a key moment for his turn to the dark side. I said multiple times it was a bad move and a bad thing to do. I would never say killing a village is an inherently "good" move.
The only thing I can see someone being slightly confused towards is that it was for a somewhat "good" reason. I didn't ever say the act was good. He was angry. Those people just killed his mother through brutal slavery and could have killed him during the podrace and they do this very often. This doesn't justify it for anyone but himself. It was still a "bad" act, one that brought him closer to the dark side.
Originally posted by JuicyJ
I know I'm always late to the party, but I will try to make this quick.I don't think Anakin's turn to the dark side was as rushed as it seemed. Let's remember this is a movie; how long do you expect it to be? The books are always more detailed.
Well, there are still issues. More than three plot points could have been revealed in AotC and Anakin could have shown more of his transformation starting then. Lucas didn't need to bring in a new villain for each film and could have spent more time on the protagonist (could have kept Maul for all three films or introduced Dooku in the first and kept him throughout, for example). That's just wasted screentime, even though one of my favourite characters is a result of this.
Originally posted by JuicyJ
but his immaturety held him back. Darth Sidious had a way with words and the power of the dark side also to aide in his persuasion. Pay attention to how his voice changes when he says certain things to Anakin; like when he told Anakin to kill Dooku. Anakin's love for Padmae mixed with his immature mind couldn't do anything but fall prey to Palpatine. I do understand that it would seem like Anakin should have been smarter, but Jedi Masters have years and years of experience training their minds without interference. Anakin wasn't a Jedi Master and had The Dark Lord of the Sith wispering in his ear from the begining; building his trust
His immaturity did hold him back and Palps acted as a trusted figure towards Anakin. He built his trust with him over many years and knew Anakin's weaknesses. It was also the Council's complete lack of willingness to do anything for Anakin to help with Padme didn't help either. As I've said, Palps at least offered a solution to Anakin. The Council told him to let go - easier said than done for someone of Anakin's background.
Anakin's fall was, indeed, rushed, though and fairly anti-climactic.
Well I saw ROTS was a modern day Macbeth. Anakin WAS the Republic's greatest hero at the beginning of the movie, but then throughout the movie made choices, starting with the murder of Count Dooku which turned him into an evil selfish being.
I know he killed in AOTC but I dnt think that means ROTS Anakin was already bad/evil at the beginning of the movie. It was 3 years later and he was a full fledged Kinght now.
But I do feel that AOTC incident was a bit early on(before he becomes the Republic's greatest hero) and his "revenge" a bit over the top. If he just killed all the male Tusken Raiders that would have been bad enough. Killing women and children in a fit of rage was a bit too much. I think AOTC was flawed in many ways though. It's my least favorite Star Wars prequel.