Darth_Glentract
Really? You'd put DE Sidious above Luke, Gideon?
Without a shadow of a doubt.
Obviously, it's an opinion. An educated and accurate opinion, but a fallible one. There is no source that puts either Skywalker or the Emperor above one another in anything but potential; Skywalker enjoys the advantage there. But should we examine sources and demonstrations of ability, one would have to conclude that the Emperor enjoys a notable advantage over Luke.
In terms of comprehensive Force knowledge, there is none who is equal to Palpatine. Per the Dark Empire Sourcebook and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Palpatine (during his reign as Emperor) gathered the greatest works of Force knowledge from over a million worlds and collected a great number of both Jedi and Sith Holocrons from his seizure of the Jedi Temple. He possessed, prior to his final death, the Telos Holocron, which given entries from Count Dooku, suggest Sidious had it for years. The Telos Holocron is a vast repository of Sith related information, from Naga Sadow to Darth Revan to Darth Bane. Sidious offers addendums to the various dark side practitioners, correcting their mistakes and contradicting them numerous times, demonstrating his superiority. He also demonstrated a great understanding of esoteric sects like the Sorcerers of Tund, the Heresiarchs, and others. Luke, in comparison, has a broad knowledge of the Force but we can safely conclude not as broad. More importantly, his knowledge of the Force is supremely superficial compared to the Emperor's.
Now while knowledge isn't the end all be all, the Complete Encyclopedia makes it very clear that in order to obtain a high command of the Force, one must be a dedicated and studious practitioner of its disciplines. Gauging the respective Force careers of Skywalker and Sidious, one understands that Sidious was the more dedicated Force user by far. He simply had far more to work with and more time to plumb the depths of the Force.
Comparing their "feats," Sidious also enjoys a titanic advantage. Starting in chronological order, he blunted the sensitivity of ten thousand Jedi across the span of a galaxy from the Phantom Menace until Revenge of the Sith, a timeline spanning thirteen years or so. He did this while simultaneously shielding his own considerable sensitivity to the Force. He conducted powerful Sith rituals enabling him to also manipulate the Jedi across numerous battlefields, increasing Anakin Skywalker's bloodlust and Master Yoda's anxiety. He was able to diminish Mace Windu's own mastery of the shatterpoint charism so that Windu was unable to pierce the shroud of the dark side. Carrying on, his "mindfogging powers" were directly responsible for the burial of Ysanne Isard's Super Star Destroyer beneath the cityscape of Coruscant; his personal dark side powers were attributed to the transformation the planet Byss from a "lush, fertile planet" to "one of the strongest dark side sites in the galaxy" while simultaneously enslaving the planet's twenty billion inhabitants through sheer force of will (this while maintaining most of his time on Coruscant). His Force lightning disintegrated powerful dark side alchemists and obliterated fifty stormtroopers, he demonstrated the power to not only survive death (through sheer force of will according to the Complete Enyclopedia) but as well as manipulate the souls and essences of others (i.e. Bevel Lemelisk). It required Galen Marek, who was capable of manipulating a mammoth Imperial Star Destroyer, to become one with the Force in order to hold Palpatine off, resulting in an explosion powerful enough to cause considerable cosmetic damage to the Death Star which, as everyone knows, was the size of a moon. The Emperor's death was not only the singular event responsible for balancing the Force, but it threw the Imperial Fleet into disarray due to the intense level of battle meditation he had assumed over its millions of personnel for the past two decades. When Leia Organa Solo would later, in the Thrawn Trilogy, visit the spot of the Emperor's death, the sheer wave of dark side energy left by his death knocked her unconscious.
As of Dark Empire, Palpatine confirms that the ability to summon Force Storms -- capable of obliterating a fleet of ships with shields capable of resisting gigatons of damage and tearing the surfaces off worlds -- was so casual as to be done "with mere thought or inclination." Even on the verge of death, when intense emotional response or active use of the Force brought him closer to death, he was capable of instantly killing two of Skywalker's Jedi Knights: Rayf and Brand; Brand of whom was called "powerful in the Force" by the Essential Guide to the Force and Rayf, a Jedi neophyte who was nonetheless capable of outdueling the Emperor's dark side adepts, who were considered "very powerful, indeed" according to both the Complete Encyclopedia and Dark Empire Sourcebook. Lastly, according to the dying Brand, "all of the Jedi [before Luke]" would have to see that the Emperor remained in the afterlife. Contrast this to the fate of Exar Kun: a collective group of Jedi initiates and Luke Skywalker were able to obliterate him forever. Yet the historical might of the Jedi is simply able to keep Palpatine's spirit essence detained post-mortem.
In contrast, Luke Skywalker manipulated a dovin basal, used illusions to deceive Darth Caedus, defeated UnuThul, telekinetically destroyed a castle, telekinetically toppled an AT-AT, and performed his uber-feats in the Unifying Force. The dovin basal, to this day, remains a point of contention as to what exactly Luke did and how considerable the feat was. That he defeated Unuthul is considerable, but that Unuthul had the entire Force potential of the Colony to draw upon does not mean that he [Unuthul] had mastered it. It just meant, rather like Anakin Skywalker, his Force reserves were considerable. He used illusions to deceive Caedus, but Caedus was mentally deranged at the time and, lest we forget, Jacen manipulated Luke in the Dark Nest Trilogy with similar means. I have not yet read the Black Fleet Crisis where Luke destroys Vader's castle, so I have to defer to more informed persons on that. Luke telekinetically toppling an AT-AT is no more impressive than Starkiller destroying one through Force lightning. And lastly, his feats in the Unifying Force -- defeating the army of Yuuzhan Vong -- are directly attributed to a Jedi mind meld in the Essential Guide to the Force.
Considerable feats, and let me provide a caveat by saying that I do concur that Skywalker would defeat the Emperor in a conventional duel by sheer virtue of being, for the most part, a more capable swordsman and combatant. But when it comes to Force and acquired power, the Emperor enjoys a considerable advantage and the opposition (Poppunker, ect.) has offered nothing to contradict that.
Originally posted by GideonComparing their "feats," Sidious also enjoys a titanic advantage. Starting in chronological order, he blunted the sensitivity of ten thousand Jedi across the span of a galaxy from the Phantom Menace until Revenge of the Sith, a timeline spanning thirteen years or so. He did this while simultaneously shielding his own considerable sensitivity to the Force. He conducted powerful Sith rituals enabling him to also manipulate the Jedi across numerous battlefields, increasing Anakin Skywalker's bloodlust and Master Yoda's anxiety. He was able to diminish Mace Windu's own mastery of the shatterpoint charism so that Windu was unable to pierce the shroud of the dark side. Carrying on, his "mindfogging powers" were directly responsible for the burial of Ysanne Isard's Super Star Destroyer beneath the cityscape of Coruscant; his personal dark side powers were attributed to the transformation the planet Byss from a "lush, fertile planet" to "one of the strongest dark side sites in the galaxy" while simultaneously enslaving the planet's twenty billion inhabitants through sheer force of will (this while maintaining most of his time on Coruscant). His Force lightning disintegrated powerful dark side alchemists and obliterated fifty stormtroopers, he demonstrated the power to not only survive death (through sheer force of will according to the Complete Enyclopedia) but as well as manipulate the souls and essences of others (i.e. Bevel Lemelisk). It required Galen Marek, who was capable of manipulating a mammoth Imperial Star Destroyer, to become one with the Force in order to hold Palpatine off, resulting in an explosion powerful enough to cause considerable cosmetic damage to the Death Star which, as everyone knows, was the size of a moon. The Emperor's death was not only the singular event responsible for balancing the Force, but it threw the Imperial Fleet into disarray due to the intense level of battle meditation he had assumed over its millions of personnel for the past two decades. When Leia Organa Solo would later, in the Thrawn Trilogy, visit the spot of the Emperor's death, the sheer wave of dark side energy left by his death knocked her unconscious.
As of Dark Empire, Palpatine confirms that the ability to summon Force Storms -- capable of obliterating a fleet of ships with shields capable of resisting gigatons of damage and tearing the surfaces off worlds -- was so casual as to be done "with mere thought or inclination." Even on the verge of death, when intense emotional response or active use of the Force brought him closer to death, he was capable of instantly killing two of Skywalker's Jedi Knights: Rayf and Brand; Brand of whom was called "powerful in the Force" by the Essential Guide to the Force and Rayf, a Jedi neophyte who was nonetheless capable of outdueling the Emperor's dark side adepts, who were considered "very powerful, indeed" according to both the Complete Encyclopedia and Dark Empire Sourcebook. Lastly, according to the dying Brand, "all of the Jedi [before Luke]" would have to see that the Emperor remained in the afterlife. Contrast this to the fate of Exar Kun: a collective group of Jedi initiates and Luke Skywalker were able to obliterate him forever. Yet the historical might of the Jedi is simply able to keep Palpatine's spirit essence detained post-mortem.
In contrast, Luke Skywalker manipulated a dovin basal, used illusions to deceive Darth Caedus, defeated UnuThul, telekinetically destroyed a castle, telekinetically toppled an AT-AT, and performed his uber-feats in the Unifying Force. The dovin basal, to this day, remains a point of contention as to what exactly Luke did and how considerable the feat was. That he defeated Unuthul is considerable, but that Unuthul had the entire Force potential of the Colony to draw upon does not mean that he [Unuthul] had mastered it. It just meant, rather like Anakin Skywalker, his Force reserves were considerable. He used illusions to deceive Caedus, but Caedus was mentally deranged at the time and, lest we forget, Jacen manipulated Luke in the Dark Nest Trilogy with similar means. I have not yet read the Black Fleet Crisis where Luke destroys Vader's castle, so I have to defer to more informed persons on that. Luke telekinetically toppling an AT-AT is no more impressive than Starkiller destroying one through Force lightning. And lastly, his feats in the Unifying Force -- defeating the army of Yuuzhan Vong -- are directly attributed to a Jedi mind meld in the Essential Guide to the Force.
DS
I thought that sithisis was established as n-canon?
No, the events of the comic are referenced explicitly within the Ultimate Visual Guide, alongside a screen capture of the comic itself. It's canon.
DS
You must be mistaken. He didn't "instantly kill" Brand. His spirit was captured by Brand and it slowly destroyed him.
No, numerous sources have made it abundantly clear that the attack mortally wounded Brand. It wasn't Palpatine's essence that was killing him, he was dying from the blast of Force energy.
DS
Furthermore, despite his adepts being called "very powerful", Palpatine notes that the leader of these adapts, Sedriss, is no more than a moderate force sensitive.
Sedriss's sensitivity to the Force is irrelevant. We're not gauging potential or attunement so much as acquired skill. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Count Dooku possessed a "moderate" connection to the Force relative to Anakin Skywalker, and each dealt him a humiliating defeat. Palpatine himself was "moderate" compared to Skywalker, and held him in servile submission for two decades.
This is irrelevant.
DS
You're throwing out excuses for Luke's feats.
If by "excuse" you mean providing a context which reveals that the feat is either questionable or not as uber as some make it out to be, then yes, I suppose I am.
DS
Everything is a point of contention with Luke apparently.
Sorry, DS, but we're not ignoring canon sources (i.e. the Essential Guide to the Force declaring Luke's feats against the Yuuzhan Vong in TUF being the result of a battlemeld) simply because you don't like the conclusion.
DS
Nobody cares what Luke did with the dovin basal but the feat is phenomenal.
I didn't say no one cares. I said that no one has made a conclusive interpretation of the dovin basal; was he playing tug-o'-war with it or manipulating its direction or adjusting its size or what? I'll leave that to Glentract and company to figure out, since science isn't my forte. Saying Obi-Wan defeated the tractor beams of the Death Star is badass. But when it's discovered that he simply flipped a toggle to shut it off, the feat loses much of its gravitas.
(Pun intended.)
DS
Also, calling Caedus deranged is a poor attempt to diminish Luke's feats against him. Jacen wasn't deranged, he was actually pretty damn normal by his standards,
Um, no. I'm saying that Caedus was, by all accounts, a deranged lunatic. Manipulating a psychopath is a great deal easier than manipulating a fully sane, rational person.
DS
and Luke's illusions were vastly superior to Jacen's.
Quite possibly. But that still doesn't change the fact that an earlier incarnation of Jacen was able to manipulate his uncle by exploiting a flaw during the Dark Nest crisis: his love for Mara.
Originally posted by Gideon
No, numerous sources have made it abundantly clear that the attack mortally wounded Brand. It wasn't Palpatine's essence that was killing him, he was dying from the blast of Force energy.
Sedriss's sensitivity to the Force is irrelevant. We're not gauging potential or attunement so much as acquired skill. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Count Dooku possessed a "moderate" connection to the Force relative to Anakin Skywalker, and each dealt him a humiliating defeat. Palpatine himself was "moderate" compared to Skywalker, and held him in servile submission for two decades.This is irrelevant.
If by "excuse" you mean providing a context which reveals that the feat is either questionable or not as uber as some make it out to be, then yes, I suppose I am.
Sorry, DS, but we're not ignoring canon sources (i.e. the Essential Guide to the Force declaring Luke's feats against the Yuuzhan Vong in TUF being the result of a battlemeld) simply because you don't like the conclusion.
I didn't say no one cares. I said that no one has made a conclusive interpretation of the dovin basal; was he playing tug-o'-war with it or manipulating its direction or adjusting its size or what? I'll leave that to Glentract and company to figure out, since science isn't my forte. Saying Obi-Wan defeated the tractor beams of the Death Star is badass. But when it's discovered that he simply flipped a toggle to shut it off, the feat loses much of its gravitas.(Pun intended.)
Um, no. I'm saying that Caedus was, by all accounts, a deranged lunatic. Manipulating a psychopath is a great deal easier than manipulating a fully sane, rational person.
DS
What sources were these exactly? I'm sitting here with a copy of DE in my hand.The Essential Guide to the Force.
DS
[b]As a "moderate" force sensitive, there's a limit to how much skill one can acquire.
You're not telling us anything new. No one stated, suggested, or implied that Sedriss or any of the dark side adepts possessed unlimited potential.
DS
As the leader of the dark side adepts, it seems unlikely that they were "very powerful".
Once again, you're wrong.
The Dark Empire endnotes and the Complete Encyclopedia both refer to the adepts as being "very powerful," though it is also made clear that none were allowed to advance very far compared to the Emperor himself.
DS
If this context was relevant, or even factual.
It's both.
Luke's feats during the Unifying Force were the product of a battlemeld. It is confirmed by the Essential Guide to the Force. This is not up for discussion, you're not at liberty to contest it.
The incident with the dovin basal has not been fully substantiated or analyzed, and that is also fact. Until such a time that it is, I'm not interested in hearing more about it. The forum's own opinion on this issue is testament to how little we truly know about the feat. Only now are people realizing that Luke did not, in fact, "overpower a black hole!" but manipulated an artificial gravity well. If you want to get some folks to go analyze the feat and its source, I'll be happy to read it. Until then, we're moving on.
As far as UnuThul vs. Luke is concerned, nowhere in the Dark Nest Trilogy is UnuThul noted to possess active control or mastery over the Force potential of the Colony. All that is said is that he had "the entire potential of the Colony to draw upon," which means -- no more or no less -- that he had an awesome reservoir of Force energy. Which means diddly if he doesn't possess a mastery of it; I refer you to Anakin Skywalker. This is fact and we're moving on.
As regards Luke's destruction of Darth Vader's fortress, the text nor feat have been cited or analyzed at all. I've never seen it, and only know of it through Lightsnake and Wookieepedia, neither of which are canon sources. We're moving on.
As regards Luke knocking over an AT-AT, Starkiller obliterated one with Force lightning. If you want to be gracious, it puts him on a level with a guy who had to become one with the Force to buy the rebels time by fending off the Emperor. Like the rest, we're moving on.
So, for our attentive audience, point out where I have taken something out of context.
Your argument is, as ever, "WELL WOOKIE SAYS LUKE OVRPOWERED A BLACK HOLE AND DESTROYED A TELEKINESIS AND PLAYED PING PONG WITH THE PLANETS SO ITS TRUE AND **** THE ACTUAL SOURCE MATERIAL!"
That doesn't work.
DS
The hell? Where did I ever argue this? Try reading next time. Or perhaps you shouldn't pick 1 random feat as some kind of proof that I'm ignoring canon.
You've asserted that this context isn't relevant or factual. That is a lie.
DS
There's no proper rebuttal available when you compare what Obiwan did, to Luke manipulating the dovin basal.
It's an analogy.
DS
Except he seemed anything but crazy. Throughout the ENTIRE LOTF series. His ideals might have been misguided and tainted, but there is NOTHING to suggest that he was crazy OR deranged. He knew what he was doing at all times.
He's not the definition of calm, calculation. He's not even like Vader or Thrawn, who murder subordinates when they fail him. He killed people in rage and was overcome with paranoia and madness towards the end of the war. He was not the picture of a stable mind. Even Emperor "I WILL CONSUME THE GALAXY INTO THE DARK SIDE" Palpatine was more stable than that.
Originally posted by Gideon
It's both.Luke's feats during the Unifying Force were the product of a battlemeld. It is confirmed by the Essential Guide to the Force. This is not up for discussion, you're not at liberty to contest it.
The incident with the dovin basal has not been fully substantiated or analyzed, and that is also fact. Until such a time that it is, I'm not interested in hearing more about it. The forum's own opinion on this issue is testament to how little we truly know about the feat. Only now are people realizing that Luke did not, in fact, "overpower a black hole!" but manipulated an artificial gravity well. If you want to get some folks to go analyze the feat and its source, I'll be happy to read it. Until then, we're moving on.
As far as UnuThul vs. Luke is concerned, nowhere in the Dark Nest Trilogy is UnuThul noted to possess active control or mastery over the Force potential of the Colony. All that is said is that he had "the entire potential of the Colony to draw upon," which means -- no more or no less -- that he had an awesome reservoir of Force energy. Which means diddly if he doesn't possess a mastery of it; I refer you to Anakin Skywalker. This is fact and we're moving on.
As regards Luke's destruction of Darth Vader's fortress, the text nor feat have been cited or analyzed at all. I've never seen it, and only know of it through Lightsnake and Wookieepedia, neither of which are canon sources. We're moving on.
As regards Luke knocking over an AT-AT, Starkiller obliterated one with Force lightning. If you want to be gracious, it puts him on a level with a guy who had to become one with the Force to buy the rebels time by fending off the Emperor. Like the rest, we're moving on.
So, for our attentive audience, point out where I have taken something out of context.Your argument is, as ever, "WELL WOOKIE SAYS LUKE OVRPOWERED A BLACK HOLE AND DESTROYED A TELEKINESIS AND PLAYED PING PONG WITH THE PLANETS SO ITS TRUE AND **** THE ACTUAL SOURCE MATERIAL!"
That doesn't work.
You've asserted that this context isn't relevant or factual. That is a lie.It's an analogy.
He's not the definition of calm, calculation. He's not even like Vader or Thrawn, who murder subordinates when they fail him. He killed people in rage and was overcome with paranoia and madness towards the end of the war. He was not the picture of a stable mind. Even Emperor "I WILL CONSUME THE GALAXY INTO THE DARK SIDE" Palpatine was more stable than that. [/B]
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
"without a shadow of doubt"?
Without a shadow of a doubt that Gideon puts him above Luke, i believe he was saying. That was the question he was answering "would you really..." Gideon would.
He obviously isn't saying there are no shadows of any doubts from anyone here, because that simply isn't the case.
This has surpassed the realm of mundane.
DS
You're throwing out excuses for Luke's feats. Everything is a point of contention with Luke apparently.
You accuse me of "throwing out excuses" regarding Luke's feats yet when I confront you with each of them, you run away and say that you're not arguing against it. Not to mention, as usual, you don't bother to address the whole argument but prefer to cherrypick (I refer you to the last discussion we had about Luke's power, just prior to Advent bringing up the status of Exar Kun).
We'll summarize the issue as it stands on its merits: the Emperor has Luke beaten by a veritable landslide in terms of acquired knowledge and Force feats. Luke's paltry handful have not been substantiated or analyzed with any success. Until such a time that they are and objectively seen to surpass Palpatine, he's not more powerful than the Emperor.
More importantly, you are going back on ignore. I will agree to Nemesis' and Faunus's proposal, which I initially opposed. But accusations of stupidity coming from someone who is widely considered to be inept, unwise, and, most important of all, my flunky is simply too ridiculous to tolerate.
When you debate me, DS, you check your bias and disregard for sources at the door.
We're done.
truejedi
Without a shadow of a doubt that Gideon puts him above Luke, i believe he was saying. That was the question he was answering "would you really..." Gideon would.He obviously isn't saying there are no shadows of any doubts from anyone here, because that simply isn't the case.
Gideon
Without a shadow of a doubt.Obviously, it's an opinion. An educated and accurate opinion, but a fallible one. There is no source that puts either Skywalker or the Emperor above one another in anything but potential; Skywalker enjoys the advantage there. But should we examine sources and demonstrations of ability, one would have to conclude that the Emperor enjoys a notable advantage over Luke.
But, really, this is such a tired discussion. Time to move onto SW,R. Someone PM me if a new piece of evidence changes this discussion though. I'll happily recant my wicked, wicked ways.
Originally posted by Gideon
This has surpassed the realm of mundane.You accuse me of "throwing out excuses" regarding Luke's feats yet when I confront you with each of them, you run away and say that you're not arguing against it. Not to mention, as usual, you don't bother to address the whole argument but prefer to cherrypick (I refer you to the last discussion we had about Luke's power, just prior to Advent bringing up the status of Exar Kun).
We'll summarize the issue as it stands on its merits: the Emperor has Luke beaten by a veritable landslide in terms of acquired knowledge and Force feats. Luke's paltry handful have not been substantiated or analyzed with any success. Until such a time that they are and objectively seen to surpass Palpatine, he's not more powerful than the Emperor.
More importantly, you are going back on ignore. I will agree to Nemesis' and Faunus's proposal, which I initially opposed. But accusations of stupidity coming from someone who is widely considered to be inept, unwise, and, most important of all, my flunky is simply too ridiculous to tolerate.
And please, listen to two idiots who got their asses handed to them, and then decided to PM people begging to ignore me.
When you debate me, DS, you check your bias and disregard for sources at the door.We're done. [/B]
Definitely one of your lower points Gideon. Oh well. Another one added to the tally.
Edit: As you can see, Gideon has predictably elected to ignore his incredibly humorous contention that "Jacen was a madman!" Let's put that in "I like to make shit up" category, shall we?🙂
Originally posted by Gideon
That doesn't apply to SW,R, by the way. Unless you start becoming obnoxious there. Discussions with you are fine; debates are not.
Well, if you back peddle and weave your way out of arguments through the ignore function here, I can only imagine what you would do on a forum you own.
Get back to me when you start having common sense again.