Erm... don't really know the term for this...

But anyways! I've been watching COPS for the last half hour or so of COPS on G4 while helping fold some laundry, and in the episode a female officer goes undercover as a prostitute and hops in cars with guys. Shortly afterwards the guy is pulled over and given a ticket for making a deal to pay the women for sex.

So the question I have for you guys is: Do you think that the Police' method is legal? They're essentially arresting people for committing crimes that they've yet to commit. It's not illegal to let a woman get into your car of her own free will, and to my knowledge free speech grants you the right to say pretty much anything you want unless it's a threat of some kind.

So do you think that it's within the Police' rights to arrest people for premeditated crimes?

The topic kind of has more to do than with just prostitution. do you think it should be an arrestable offense to say "i want to kill you" or "im going to kill you", or to make plans to have sex with someone for money without actually making a transaction or engaging in the act of sex?

🙂

actually, the laws against prostitution are not about sex for money, but in fact, the solicitation of sex.

It would be entrapment if the female officer offered sex for money, but its technically not illegal to have sex with someone for pay, just to ask them to do such.

The word you're looking for is "entrapment". I'm not familiar enough with the law to know if this qualifies.

Anyway, prostitution shouldn't be illegal. By keeping it that way they're placed in a sort of danger that they would be shielded from, by either the government or a union, in any other profession.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
So do you think that it's within the Police' rights to arrest people for premeditated crimes?

Eh?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
But anyways! I've been watching COPS for the last half hour or so of COPS on G4 while helping fold some laundry, and in the episode a female officer goes undercover as a prostitute and hops in cars with guys. Shortly afterwards the guy is pulled over and given a ticket for making a deal to pay the women for sex.

So the question I have for you guys is: Do you think that the Police' method is legal? They're essentially arresting people for committing crimes that they've yet to commit. It's not illegal to let a woman get into your car of her own free will, and to my knowledge free speech grants you the right to say pretty much anything you want unless it's a threat of some kind.

So do you think that it's within the Police' rights to arrest people for premeditated crimes?

The topic kind of has more to do than with just prostitution. do you think it should be an arrestable offense to say "i want to kill you" or "im going to kill you", or to make plans to have sex with someone for money without actually making a transaction or engaging in the act of sex?

🙂

If it genuine intent to commit the crime, then it is legal. That's where things such as "Conspiracy to commit murder" comes into play. However, these things are risky, because there has to be genuine intent. For instance, you just had a fight with your spouce and secream out "One of these days I am going to kill you." odds are there is no true intent to kill your spouse, you are just pissed off and are spewing out whever comes to mind, however, a person who sits and plots out a course of action for a murder and is caught beforehand is indeed arrestable. With the prostitution thing, it is very similar, even though no money has changed hands yet, you have agreed to commit a crime, in the eyes of the law, that is a crime in-and-of itself. Now, the morality of stalking bathroom stalls, and street corners inorder to catch people who may be willing to pay for sexual services is another discussion...

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The word you're looking for is "entrapment". I'm not familiar enough with the law to know if this qualifies.

Anyway, prostitution shouldn't be illegal. By keeping it that way they're placed in a sort of danger that they would be shielded from, by either the government or a union, in any other profession.

There are many moral reasons for illegalising prostitution, and I find myself on the fence about it. I don't and can't support prostitution, but I also see the reasons why it should not be illegal. For one, the women who do this are in a very dangerous field of work simply because of the nature of said work, and it being illegal only compounds that, also, you have a fact that there is a wealth of money spent on prostitutes every year, money which could be taxed and used to help pull the country from it's mounting debt.

Originally posted by Mandrag Ganon
If it genuine intent to commit the crime, then it is legal. That's where things such as "Conspiracy to commit murder" comes into play. However, these things are risky, because there has to be genuine intent. For instance, you just had a fight with your spouce and secream out "One of these days I am going to kill you." odds are there is no true intent to kill your spouse, you are just pissed off and are spewing out whever comes to mind, however, a person who sits and plots out a course of action for a murder and is caught beforehand is indeed arrestable. With the prostitution thing, it is very similar, even though no money has changed hands yet, you have agreed to commit a crime, in the eyes of the law, that is a crime in-and-of itself. Now, the morality of stalking bathroom stalls, and street corners inorder to catch people who may be willing to pay for sexual services is another discussion...

There are many moral reasons for illegalising prostitution, and I find myself on the fence about it. I don't and can't support prostitution, but I also see the reasons why it should not be illegal. For one, the women who do this are in a very dangerous field of work simply because of the nature of said work, and it being illegal only compounds that, also, you have a fact that there is a wealth of money spent on prostitutes every year, money which could be taxed and used to help pull the country from it's mounting debt.

Moral reasons are personal, but what is more concerning about prostitution is sex traffickng, woman trafficking, child trafficking, child prostitution.

For example, according to International Organisation of Migration around 70% of women in borthels in Netherlands were trafficked there from Eastern Europe, ex Soviets block, and numerous third world countries in South America.

If prostitution is to be legalized this is the first and most important issue to be addressed, in my opinion.

Originally posted by Mandrag Ganon
Now, the morality of stalking bathroom stalls, and street corners inorder to catch people who may be willing to pay for sexual services is another discussion...

Considering that there are ridiculous amounts of child prostitutes and those forced into prostitution, trafficked from other countries, abused, beaten, killed and chldren are forced by pimps to have sex 40 times a day....I think cops are having the morality thing down.

This isn't just about someone wanting some booty - and cops trying to ruin it for everyone. Its clamping down on trafficking ring and helping out as many women as possible.

In order for this to happen, the other spectrum must suffer, too. Hence illegality.

Just like drugs, as long as it has value, it will be used/trafficked/abused.

How we go about it legalizing and stopping it is a thesis paper worth of arguments.

ms. marvel - i'm pretty sure that if the police were to arrest someone for prostitution, they make sure that "the deal" has been struck - an amount has been named and agreed upon. because then, and only then, has the illegal solicitation been confirmed, and so instead of handing money over if someone's undercover to see who will come up to them, or, erm, instead of proceeding with the interaction will then arrest the prostitute.

i don't know how often this happens in real life, understand, but i think the law states that the actual transaction has to be completed or agreed upon before the arrest is performed.

Prostitution should be legal. It doesn't have to be the awful thing it is now. It could be changed to a force for the improvement of society, if everybody involved likes what they're doing.

Most police are pretty careful in regards to entrapment and prostitution stings. The preferred method of entrapment by police is tailgating until a person starts speeding or makes an illegal turn to avoid an accident and the writing a ticket or arresting the person.

a good thing about prostitution being legalized is that the girls/guys would be pretty strictly monitored and tested for diseases and things. theres going to be prostitution whether we want it or not, so if thats the way its gonna be then it should at least be done safely and somewhat controlled. im also on the fence on whether it should be legal or not, but there are some pros to making it legal.

I have this vague memory that entrapment as a defence only works in the US if you can establish you would otherwise definitely not tried to commit the crime A perosn trailing the streets trying to solicit for sex hasn't a hope of an entrapment defence. It's only entrapment if the police meet the guy at work or home, and say "Hey, why don't you go pick up a prostitute tonight?" and then follow him there and arrest him. That's entrapment because it can be established that if it were not for the police, he would not have tried to commit a crime in the first place. Even then the entrapment defence might not carry if it can be established that that was something you regularly did anyway.

Police in the US use buy/bust to catch street drug dealers all the time- pose as a buyer, buy the drugs, bust the seller. This is not much different.

Just likes it's illegal to try and buy drugs, it's illegal to try and buy sex; you don't have to be caught with your cock in the whore.

the big difference is that if a person solicits (either to buy or sell) drugs from an undercover officer and never is in possession of such drugs, there is no crime, however, the solicitation of sex IS the crime.

Its not really entrapment if a undercover officer solicits a would be john for sex, however, if the john accepts, they have broken no laws, even if they have sex with the undercover and pay them the asked for amount.

FYI: no entrapment laws in Canada. Yes, our feds run wild on that shit

Probably because the person is in possession of a mouth, vagina and/or anus?

Entrapment isn't a legsl defence in Canada. I am sure I have heard of cases where they have declined to actually follow through a conviction because of entrapment in Canada though, so the polcie still have an incentive not to do it.

The whole idea behind entrapment is that police shouldn't create crimes in order to catch people that would not have been criminals were it not for the fact that the police arranged for the person to become one. In the OP example, the person was genuinely trying to commit a crime whether the police where there or not, so it was legit.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Entrapment isn't a legsl defence in Canada. I am sure I have heard of cases where they have declined to actually follow through a conviction because of entrapment in Canada though, so the polcie still have an incentive not to do it.

true, though:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080313/WFIVE_deception_080313/20080315?hub=WFive

Originally posted by inimalist
true, though:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080313/WFIVE_deception_080313/20080315?hub=WFive

The article seems biased in Oliver's favor.

However, if nothing is biased, that's absurdly effed up.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
But anyways! I've been watching COPS for the last half hour or so of COPS on G4 while helping fold some laundry, and in the episode a female officer goes undercover as a prostitute and hops in cars with guys. Shortly afterwards the guy is pulled over and given a ticket for making a deal to pay the women for sex.

So the question I have for you guys is: Do you think that the Police' method is legal? They're essentially arresting people for committing crimes that they've yet to commit. It's not illegal to let a woman get into your car of her own free will, and to my knowledge free speech grants you the right to say pretty much anything you want unless it's a threat of some kind.

So do you think that it's within the Police' rights to arrest people for premeditated crimes?

The topic kind of has more to do than with just prostitution. do you think it should be an arrestable offense to say "i want to kill you" or "im going to kill you", or to make plans to have sex with someone for money without actually making a transaction or engaging in the act of sex?

🙂

Yeah, it definitely seems like a waste of time money and manpower. It seems like every episode of cops is about prostitution stings anymore lol It feels like the polics are hurting no one but the same communities they're trying to help by focusing on this crap, but i can understand the crack whores. A proper neighborhood shouldn't have crack whores, they should have proper or slightly obese and mildly oogly hookers. Crack begets crack and so on. Drug hoin helps no-one. Keep the trashy hookers in the trashy areas.

My old Criminology prof used to say that undercover policewomen as prostitutes were visible from miles away.
They all had all their teeth which were not rotten, nice skin and beautiful hair.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The article seems biased in Oliver's favor.

However, if nothing is biased, that's absurdly effed up.

watch the 4 part video on the page