There is a difference between adapting to your opponent's H2H prowess and changing styles.
Neo's entire arsenal is almost entirely Wu Shu, why should we go one what he has not actually shown? For whatever reason, his fighting arsenal is Wu Shu, it is part of his character, and as such is the only style he should actively use in vs. fights.
Originally posted by NemeBro
There is a difference between adapting to your opponent's H2H prowess and changing styles.Neo's entire arsenal is almost entirely Wu Shu, why should we go one what he has not actually shown? For whatever reason, his fighting arsenal is Wu Shu, it is part of his character, and as such is the only style he should actively use in vs. fights.
The fight choreography chosen for the actual film and the abilities that the character in the film possess are two entirely different things. For all intent and purposes, Neo is fluent in every martial art known to man, or at least every documented martial art. Neo has the ability to download any and all recorded knowledge in the matrix. It was never even slightly mentioned what type of martial art Neo preferred.
Think about it...,when does a Jedi ever lose when he/she is not fighting another Jedi or sith? Then you have the people that always want to take their powers away and then there are the people who can't get over the fact that the jedi in this forum don't have their extended universe feats.
Just like the Jedi, Neo always wins unless he's taken out of the Matrix, yet every thread always has him taken out of the Matrix.
Originally posted by jaden101
The proof is exactly what i've already posted. He tried his previous technique that worked against Smith in M1 and it was blocked. It was a stationary stance, blocking with one hand and then attempting to counter with a single punch. It didn't work. He then completely changed his attack approach.
You mean he started using two hands, right?
And, you still haven't proven anything. All you've proven is that he started trying harder.
Originally posted by jaden101
So clearly your theory is a load of shite.
Wo ho ho ho.
It is you with the theories, mate. I'm just asking you to prove your theory.
Here's an example of what you SHOULD have responded with:
"Neo at first was using a reserved form of Kai Li Fo (not true at all, but this is an example). This is evidences by his hand placement above his right shoulder, in the air, and his right foot turned about 45 degrees clockwise towards his opponenets (not true at all, but this is an example). After he blocked a few times, he adjusted his stance to that of a more southern style Kung Fu. His left arm appeared to be placed and moved characteristic of Do Pi Kung Fu style (which is a combination of many other styles). This is evidenced by how he rotates his fist at 1:34 in the video and connects at the lower left portion of the agent's left breast and he quickly follows it up with a right heel to the back of the thigh on the other agent. When he recovers from a strike at 1:45, he uses a recovery technique characteristic of Hung Ga and quickly counters with a strong bridge hand technique."
Of course, none of that is true and it is way off. However, that is just a LIGHT example of what YOU have to prove. You can't make outlandish "never before stated as being canon" claims and expect them to fly....especially to an almost rabid matrix fanboy like myself.
Originally posted by jaden101
Odd that you claim he didn't do anything different...But don't back it up...yet ask me to.
No, I would like to change my position as I wasn't the most correct with my statement: all he did was try harder.
That's really what my theory is. I can't look up youtube vids but, I can say this: he started using both hands and moving about faster. In other words, he started trying harder. That's my theory. I've backed it up. 😐
Originally posted by jaden101
He doesn't have to know a martial art that involves guns. He just has to know one that counters gun attacks.
The first sentence contradicst the second.
Originally posted by jaden101
Krav Maga is a technique that has specific training moves to defend against gun attacks.
Great. Now prove that Neo used that technique BEFORE becoming the one and you have a point.
Originally posted by jaden101
Why would I have to prove that Gun Kata was useless from a martial arts pov?
I hate it when you do this.
Preston's understanding of Gun Kata would also be pretty useless as I'm sure Neo wouldn't conform to any statistical analysis.
You made this claim. Therefore, you have prove it. You can't make baseless claims and use them as arguing points.
Originally posted by jaden101
I stated that Neo would likely not fall into the statistical analysis that GK employes to counter enemies. This is because Neo doesn't fall into statistical averages in terms of strength, speed, h2h or gun knowledge.
Speed, yes. Unless you're referring to flying, he fights at human speed. (One of my complaints about "the one" fighting at human speed. I know, lame complaint, but if he's The One, he should fight at superhuman speeds. I understand that a human has to actually do the fight scenes...so therein lies the explanation.)
Also, that's not how Gun Kata works at all. "Statisitical averages" do not come from strength, H2H, or gun knowledge when Gun Kata is used. It comes from the statistical averages of bullets (as projectiles) being fired at the cleric from various locations and an employment of trigonometry, observation, and adaptation, on the fly, during a gun fight.
Originally posted by jaden101
[B]Although not shown on screen, we can presume as highly likely that Neo's natural abilities with guns weren't particularly good so any training that he would have had in gun use would be programmed similar to his martial arts. In that respect then we can also presume that it's to an exceptionally high calibre. Given his showing against trained SWAT teams this is evident.
Follow this logic:
1. John Preston leveled many many clerics, who were all trained in Gun Kata, with extreme speed.
2. Neo took much longer to kill several "SWAT" team people WITH Trinity's help.
3. Neo missed quite a few times.
4. The SWAT team had extremely shitty aiming. Neo would run between 2 pillars and bullets would hit the right one and as Neo passed through the pillars, he would go unscathed and then, the SWAT team started shooting the next pillar. Yet, Neo was a larger targer than he pillars. The SWAT team greatly "sucked" compared to characters Preston took out with extreme prejudice.
5. His gun prowess is not anywhere even remotely close to Preston's when it comes to using guns. Presong would have leveled that room full of shitty aiming SWAT team members, by himself, in a much shorter time frame.
There is no debate, whatsoever, about who would win in a gun fight between Pre-The One Neo and John Preston.
Originally posted by jaden101
You also missed my last point.
No, I didn't miss your last point. I actually told you to use something less "non sequitor" to actually make a previous point. I prefer it if arguments are jam-packed with strawman arguments. If you want to add other items in addition to existing arguments, that's cool and I even welcome it. But, they can't raondomly be assigned as counters or supporting evidence for something else almost completely unrelated.
Originally posted by jaden101
I was countering the idea that he only used a small amount of martial arts techniques in the movie and thus he can only use those types.
Point to the portion in my post that he can only use the limited number of martial arts seen in the movies, please?
I hate to come off rude to my homie, but I think you missed my point.
I don't want to patronize you so I'll ask you this: do you want me to show you where your disconnect is? If you want to just read back over it and figure it out, that's fine to. (It will save me time if you do. : ( )
Originally posted by jaden101
This is nonsense. It's quite clearly shown in the movies, through the scene where he's jacked in and Tank calls him "a machine" that he is being programmed with far more than the techniques he shows during fights...Thus these skills are applicable to his character in a hypothetical fight.
Incorrect starting point which has lead to a misplaced conclusory statement.
Originally posted by jaden101
I'm not sure but I even think that the aformentioned Krav Maga is one of those that is actually shown on the computer screen. I'd need to check again though.
It wasn't.
Originally posted by NemeBro
There is a difference between adapting to your opponent's H2H prowess and changing styles.Neo's entire arsenal is almost entirely Wu Shu, why should we go one what he has not actually shown? For whatever reason, his fighting arsenal is Wu Shu, it is part of his character.
This is the most intelligent post in the thread. 😐
I remember reading somewhere that Neo and the others used a select few techniques because they are the most effective. (Outside the movie, it's cause it looks good.)
Originally posted by NemeBro
There is a difference between adapting to your opponent's H2H prowess and changing styles.Neo's entire arsenal is almost entirely Wu Shu, why should we go one what he has not actually shown? For whatever reason, his fighting arsenal is Wu Shu, it is part of his character, and as such is the only style he should actively use in vs. fights.
We should go on what is known about his character. We know he's programmed with far more than Wu Shu..Thus it's applicable to any fight that he can use more than Wu Shu. Your standpoint is similar to arguing that because we don't see him do a particular move (even if it's from Wu Shu) that he can't do it in any hypothetical fight...Which is an utterly nonsensical argument.
It is you with the theories, mate. I'm just asking you to prove your theory.
Already did.
"Neo at first was using a reserved form of Kai Li Fo (not true at all, but this is an example). This is evidences by his hand placement above his right shoulder, in the air, and his right foot turned about 45 degrees clockwise towards his opponenets (not true at all, but this is an example). After he blocked a few times, he adjusted his stance to that of a more southern style Kung Fu. His left arm appeared to be placed and moved characteristic of Do Pi Kung Fu style (which is a combination of many other styles). This is evidenced by how he rotates his fist at 1:34 in the video and connects at the lower left portion of the agent's left breast and he quickly follows it up with a right heel to the back of the thigh on the other agent. When he recovers from a strike at 1:45, he uses a recovery technique characteristic of Hung Ga and quickly counters with a strong bridge hand technique."
Now you're just delving into the ridiculous to try and start an argument.
That's really what my theory is. I can't look up youtube vids but, I can say this: he started using both hands and moving about faster. In other words, he started trying harder. That's my theory. I've backed it up.
No you've not. You've not proved that his static defence is from the same style as the rest of the fight...That's the burden of proof you're asking me so why not apply it to yourself?
Of course, none of that is true and it is way off. However, that is just a LIGHT example of what YOU have to prove. You can't make outlandish "never before stated as being canon" claims and expect them to fly....especially to an almost rabid matrix fanboy like myself.
Please keep any talk of "canon" to the sad discussions in the SW forums.
The first sentence contradicst the second.
No it doesn't...For the example I've already given.
Great. Now prove that Neo used that technique BEFORE becoming the one and you have a point.
Because he was programmed in all martial arts before becoming the one.
Speed, yes. Unless you're referring to flying, he fights at human speed. (One of my complaints about "the one" fighting at human speed. I know, lame complaint, but if he's The One, he should fight at superhuman speeds. I understand that a human has to actually do the fight scenes...so therein lies the explanation.)
He fights at superhuman speeds in the dojo scene against Morpheus (although it's only briefly) but yes, I agree that it's an anomaly. Although it'd be interesting if they showed it as relative. Meaning that to Neo fighting Smith to then it seemed at human speed but to a human observer it was just a blur (that would've been a good way to emphasis superhuman speed...similar to the film "the one" although that showing everything except Jet Li slowed down)
1. John Preston leveled many many clerics, who were all trained in Gun Kata, with extreme speed.
I don't think the people he fights when they discover the dogs in his car or the people in the lobby near the end are Clerics. Is it even made clear the start of the sword scenes are against Clerics?
2. Neo took much longer to kill several "SWAT" team people WITH Trinity's help.
A substantial part of the lobby fight was slowed down.
3. Neo missed quite a few times.
As did Preston. Watch the scene where he shoots one of the guys against the pillar...Bullet holes appear all around the guy which are clearly missing him.
Point to the portion in my post that he can only use the limited number of martial arts seen in the movies, please?
Is this not what you're implying with this
Incorrect. As fact, Neo used a just a select few martial arts in the film. The list is only like, 3 deep.
I don't want to patronize you so I'll ask you this: do you want me to show you where your disconnect is? If you want to just read back over it and figure it out, that's fine to. (It will save me time if you do. : ( )
Enlighten me with your infinite wisdom. Before we both lose our rag like we did in the thread about the whales. 😆
Originally posted by jaden101
Already did.Now you're just delving into the ridiculous to try and start an argument.
But you didn't. You just made more baseless statements by using just a small portion of the scene, and didn't back anything up you stated.
Originally posted by jaden101
No you've not. You've not proved that his static defence is from the same style as the rest of the fight...That's the burden of proof you're asking me so why not apply it to yourself?
Yup, I have. I'm not claiming he adapted his style by changing it. I'm not claiming that he varies up his fighting style. You are. I'm claiming he remained the same and the only difference is him fighting faster and more agressively. In fact, I'm not going to claim he's using anything but a stiff form of Wu Shu and a southern style of Kung Fu....(would you like me to find some sources for that, or did you already know that?)
Originally posted by jaden101
Please keep any talk of "canon" to the sad discussions in the SW forums.
Unfortunately, there is canon and non-canon for the Matrix universe. Obviously, Wachowski Bros. material is top canon with direct writers/project developers being canon unless it contradicts the Bros. From there, it gets a little fuzzy.
Originally posted by jaden101
No it doesn't...For the example I've already given.
Yes it does.
Read your sentence again:
He doesn't have to know a martial art that involves guns. He just has to know one that counters gun attacks.
He doesn't have to know martial arts that involve guns. Yet, he has to know a martial art that counters guns.
Knowing a martial art the counters guns is knowing a martial art the involves guns.
Why do you do this to me, man? weep
Originally posted by jaden101
Because he was programmed in all martial arts before becoming the one.
faceplam That's not proof. And, please show me where it's stated that he learns all martial arts? Please show me where he learned any gun martial arts?
Originally posted by jaden101
He fights at superhuman speeds in the dojo scene against Morpheus (although it's only briefly) but yes, I agree that it's an anomaly. Although it'd be interesting if they showed it as relative. Meaning that to Neo fighting Smith to then it seemed at human speed but to a human observer it was just a blur (that would've been a good way to emphasis superhuman speed...similar to the film "the one" although that showing everything except Jet Li slowed down)
Just for a split second and it doesn't occur again until he becomes the one. 🙂
This is not "The One" version we are talking about.
Originally posted by jaden101
I don't think the people he fights when they discover the dogs in his car or the people in the lobby near the end are Clerics. Is it even made clear the start of the sword scenes are against Clerics?
Every last person involved in EC-10 work is a cleric.
Originally posted by jaden101
A substantial part of the lobby fight was slowed down.
Same with Preston's. Cept, he got business taken care of much faster. And, unlike Neo, he predicted almost an entire minute into the future with his gun magazines.
Originally posted by jaden101
As did Preston. Watch the scene where he shoots one of the guys against the pillar...Bullet holes appear all around the guy which are clearly missing him.
I will. I'm under the impression that it is the dude across from the cleric. 🙂
Originally posted by jaden101
Is this not what you're implying with this
Don't try and turn this around on me. You are the one saying that Neo can vary up his techniques. Not me. I'm simply stating fact.
Originally posted by jaden101
Enlighten me with your infinite wisdom. Before we both lose our rag like we did in the thread about the whales. 😆
1. lol
2. It's not infinite wisdom. It's just knowledge that does neither of us any good, really, besides talking about a movie we like.
3. Here it is:
You said:
Originally posted by jaden101
Preston's understanding of Gun Kata would also be pretty useless as I'm sure Neo wouldn't conform to any statistical analysis.
Which you further backed up by saying:
Originally posted by jaden101
Regardless of what he displays, he adapts to his opponent. Clearly shown in reloaded against the "upgrades"
And further solidified by this statement of yours:
Originally posted by jaden101
I was countering the idea that he only used a small amount of martial arts techniques in the movie and thus he can only use those types. This is nonsense.
So, you're claiming that Neo would use multiple martial art techniques and this would somehow throw Preston off.
So, I argued this:
Originally posted by dadudemon
Neo used a just a select few martial arts in the film. The list is only like, 3 deep.
Meaning, despite all of his "learning" only 2 or 3 were deemed useful for all three films, by Neo. You said he would vary it up when you have 0 evidence for this and, in fact, the only evidence is only for Neo sticking to 2 or 3 techniques, and, on top of that, using very stiff forms of those techniques.
No where at any point did I claim that he can only use those 2 or 3. Just that those are the only ones he uses.
Going by this, he will use those techniques against Preston, 100% for sure. Since he didn't deviate, no matter what, from those techniques, a claim that he would use something else is actually baseless. All evidence points to him NOT using other techniques.
"Technique" in the singular does not necessarily mean, in this context, that he's only using one style of martial art.
His fighting technique may be to use multiple styles. Did you think of that?
Originally posted by NemeBro
There is a difference between adapting to your opponent's H2H prowess and changing styles.Neo's entire arsenal is almost entirely Wu Shu, why should we go one what he has not actually shown? For whatever reason, his fighting arsenal is Wu Shu, it is part of his character, and as such is the only style he should actively use in vs. fights.
You can adapt by changing styles, though.
-AC