Climate head steps down over e-mail leak

Started by dadudemon3 pages
Originally posted by inimalist
Even then, the sun argument has been rebuked, at least as the dominant driver of climate change.

Actually, I was under the impression that it IS the dominant climate changer with manmade influence falling in at .3-.5% of the global "warming" trend.

Also, some of the global warming that has been "discovered" is not really warming at all, but simply an "urban heat island effect." Satellite measures of global mean temperature are much more accurate and they don't show a warming trend, at all.

And.......

VIVA LA HOLOCENE MAXIMUM!

And, increase in temperature may actually cause CO2 to increase, not the other way around.

But, for me, it is mostly solar activity.

http://www.cdejager.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/2009-episodes-jastp-71-194.pdf

http://www.cdejager.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/duhaudej-phases-2008.pdf

Originally posted by dadudemon
Satellite measures of global mean temperature are much more accurate and they don't show a warming trend, at all.

How many hundreds of years of data do we have from those again?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
How many hundreds of years of data do we have from those again?

You want my post to say something it is not.

The trend I referred to is for the last 18 years.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, I was under the impression that it IS the dominant climate changer with manmade influence falling in at .3-.5% of the global "warming" trend.

Also, some of the global warming that has been "discovered" is not really warming at all, but simply an "urban heat island effect." Satellite measures of global mean temperature are much more accurate and they don't show a warming trend, at all.

And.......

VIVA LA HOLOCENE MAXIMUM!

And, increase in temperature may actually cause CO2 to increase, not the other way around.

But, for me, it is mostly solar activity.

http://www.cdejager.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/2009-episodes-jastp-71-194.pdf

http://www.cdejager.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/duhaudej-phases-2008.pdf

/shrug

I'm going from what I've seen on livescience

those paper being published, however, is glaring evidence of their being no conspiracy against non-anthropogenic global warming evidence.

EDIT: I also have a general beef with the way you are talking about "global warming", and its nothing to do with you personally or even what you are saying, its just the whole way the name has stuck. Global warming really might not lead to "global warming", but rather, drastic climate change that alters how people live on the planet. That satellites don't show an upward trend, to me, isn't really surprising. Climate is too complex for there to be things that are completely uniform as the term "warming" would suggest.

greenland used to be green. earth goes through massive warming/cooling trends. everything happening now is natural. relax it would take FAR MORE than we have going on now to do anything to the environment. hint: cows produce more methane (a gas far more harmful to the environment than c02) than cars do c02.

Originally posted by One Free Man
hint: cows produce more methane (a gas far more harmful to the environment than c02) than cars do c02.

Correction: No they don't. Not even close.

The "50 times more potent as a greenhouse gas" idea is slightly misleading, as well.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Correction: No they don't. Not even close.
Correction: Yes they do.

Originally posted by One Free Man
greenland used to be green. earth goes through massive warming/cooling trends. everything happening now is natural. relax it would take FAR MORE than we have going on now to do anything to the environment. hint: cows produce more methane (a gas far more harmful to the environment than c02) than cars do c02.

even if that were true (though it does fall victim to the "singular statement that doesn't seem to fit the theory" issue, and cows are a man-made product anyways, thus effects on the environment from farming them is a anthropogenic) your conclusion is not necessarily valid.

By relative volume, the effect of alcohol on a human body requires very little substance. a change of 05 to .08% blood alcohol content, a minuscule change of .03, to go from being tipsy to being off the wall hammered (numbers may vary). Very small changes in systems that are in delicate balance can have huge effects. That humans produce less green house gas than other things does not mean humans are not the driving factor behind climate change.

There is also the fact that, while the climate on the earth does change, the rate of change is unprecedented.

Originally posted by One Free Man
Correction: Yes they do.

Prove that cows produce more methane gas than humans do C02 from their cars.

EDIT: whoops, I misread that... what a crazy argument.

anyways, my point: Both [cars and cows], however, are anthropogenic causes of global warming, so it makes even pointing this out completely incongruent with his [one free man's] argument that it is all natural and that humans couldn't have any effect. This leads me to think his position is more of a collection of counter-points and interesting anomalies rather than a coherent model of global climate.

Originally posted by inimalist
EDIT: whoops, I misread that... what a crazy argument.

anyways, my point: Both [cars and cows], however, are anthropogenic causes of global warming, so it makes even pointing this out completely incongruent with his [one free man's] argument that it is all natural and that humans couldn't have any effect. This leads me to think his position is more of a collection of counter-points and interesting anomalies rather than a coherent model of global climate.

Indeed. Your point would actually be more correct than me simply point out that he's wrong.

Originally posted by inimalist
EDIT: whoops, I misread that... what a crazy argument.

anyways, my point: Both [cars and cows], however, are anthropogenic causes of global warming, so it makes even pointing this out completely incongruent with his [one free man's] argument that it is all natural and that humans couldn't have any effect. This leads me to think his position is more of a collection of counter-points and interesting anomalies rather than a coherent model of global climate.

cows were not the cause of my "all natural" argument.

when the vikings settled greenland it was in fact green, thus the name. the stories tell of them planting crops in the prosperous "green" land.

we go through massive cooling/warm stages as a planet.

Originally posted by One Free Man
cows were not the cause of my "all natural" argument.

indeed, I argued that they weren't in the post you quoted.

Originally posted by One Free Man
when the vikings settled greenland it was in fact green, thus the name. the stories tell of them planting crops in the prosperous "green" land.

we go through massive cooling/warm stages as a planet.

we sure do

however, that really doesn't do much about the evidence that man is contributing to the current climate change

for instance, it is possible that the earth could be changing AND that man might be effecting it

Originally posted by One Free Man
cows were not the cause of my "all natural" argument.

when the vikings settled greenland it was in fact green, thus the name. the stories tell of them planting crops in the prosperous "green" land.

we go through massive cooling/warm stages as a planet.

Actually, parts of Greenland are still verdant today.

Natural cooling and warming does not preclude human influence on the climate.

Originally posted by inimalist

however, that really doesn't do much about the evidence

EVIDENCE? WHERE?!?!

Originally posted by One Free Man
EVIDENCE? WHERE?!?!

by this do you mean:

a) I actually did not realize there was any evidence supporting anthropogenic global climate change, can you show me?

or

b) I disregard all present climate science that points to anthropogenic climate change

a.

Originally posted by One Free Man
a.

You seriously thought that most of the climatologists in the world didn't even claim to have evidence of global climate change?

Originally posted by One Free Man
a.

I'd start with this: http://www.livescience.com/environment/070716_gw_notwrong.html

and the wiki for climate change: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming

for any particular questions you might want addressed that aren't explicitly covered there, I'd suggest: http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

for instance, here is their answer to the idea that past climate change disproves anthropogenic climate change:


Skeptical Argument: Earth's climate has changed long before we were pouring CO2 into the atmosphere. Europe was warmer in the Middle Ages. During the 18th century, it was colder, prompting the 'The Little Ice Age'. Further back, there were times when the Earth was several degrees hotter than current temperatures.

What Science Says: Natural climate change in the past proves that climate is sensitive to an energy imbalance. If the planet accumulates heat, global temperatures will go up. Currently, CO2 is imposing an energy imbalance due to the enhanced greenhouse effect. Past climate change actually provides evidence for our climate's sensitivity to CO2.

A much more thorough answer is given at this link: http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-change-little-ice-age-medieval-warm-period.htm

as is done with all "skeptical" questions answered by the site.

EDIT: this link specifically answeres the charge that there is no empirical evidence for man-made climate change: http://www.skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-global-warming.htm

The Reality of 'Climategate'
Benjamin Radford
Livescience.com
http://www.livescience.com/environment/091206-climategate-emails.html

At a Danish climate summit this week, one subject will certainly be raised: The theft of thousands of private e-mails and files recently hacked from computers at East Anglia university, a leading climate research center. The e-mails, which were made public and appear to show scientific misconduct, have fueled a firestorm among those who believe that global warming is not chiefly driven by human influences.

The case is still unfolding, and East Anglia has launched an investigation "to determine whether there is any evidence of the manipulation or suppression of data which is at odds with acceptable scientific practice."

On the surface, it seems that there was in fact misconduct of some sort. In some cases, words and phrases (such as "trick"😉 were used out of their academic context to make them seem duplicitous. Other cases are more serious: Scientist Phil Jones was quoted as stating that he would attempt to keep papers whose conclusions argued against a connection between warming and human activity out of an important climate panel report. Researcher Michael Mann of Pennsylvania State University was portrayed as discussing the boycott of an academic journal that had published what he and others felt was an inadequate study.

These actions certainly seem improper, and in one case may have been illegal. The question is not whether at least some of the scientists quoted in the private e-mails exhibited poor judgment or even scientific misbehavior. The real question is whether that misconduct is relevant to the larger issue of whether there is solid evidence for global warming.

For all the furor and controversy, what has not been found among the decade's worth of stolen e-mails is revealing.

If the e-mails truly are the "smoking gun" that the critics of global warming claim them to be — revealing the tip of the melting iceberg of scientific fraud regarding climate change data — then it is puzzling that no one has yet identified the numerous faked studies.

For all the innuendo and accusations, the scientists' critics have yet to locate a single instance of fraudulent research exposed in the e-mails. Personal e-mails between climate scientists may be ill-advised and embarrassing, but by themselves do not provide hard evidence of scientific fraud.

The fact is that the evidence for climate change does not hinge upon data from the East Anglia University researchers whose e-mails were exposed. Data supporting the global warming hypothesis has been collected over decades from a wide variety of independent organizations around the world, including NASA, the Met Office Hadley Centre in England, the Meteorological Office in Germany, and many others.

To use an analogy, it would be like if, during a worldwide eclipse of the sun, one observatory was accused of faking the telescopic images it showed visitors during the event. Even if that were true, it wouldn't change the fact that the eclipse happened, nor that dozens of other observatories recorded the same thing. Many of the claims made by the so-called global warming skeptics have been raised and addressed (see, for example, http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php).

None of this excuses the scientist's alleged behavior. They should not suppress nor delete data they disagree with. Scientists, like people in every other profession, sometimes act unprofessionally and maliciously. Fortunately the data they produce stands or falls on its own merits.

If the scientists' data is revealed to have been faked, they will undoubtedly be charged with scientific misconduct, their papers recalled, and their careers ruined. So far, however, the only crime known to have been committed is the original hacking of the university's private e-mails.