Batdude and Kahn's Match #1: Kris Blaze/KM vs. psycho gundam/Charlotte DeBel

Post # 3.

A few quick points.

1. Mindcontrol is banned, and Zatanna has resisted tampering with her form from Chaos god. Next, darling...
He's dealing with his peer as far as sorcery lore goes, not some random being. And "spirits as conducts of magic" I can buy, but they are sentient beings with their will (that's what Spirit Test is for).

I proposed ABSOLUTELY non-magical way of restraining Shaman and stopping him from casting. The only things he did without his pouch were some random blasts of magical energy... how "impressive". Timestop and teleports are good, but banned... Zatanna also has teleported without casting anything.

Your dusts aren't reaching the actual members of our team- we're in AIRTIGHT bubble (in most cases air is the conduct for the dusts) which was enhanced to not let any magic from outside in. The only ones affected by that are soulless constructs of Kyle's- antiflying dust won't help a bit, and being constructs acting on Kyle's beck and call (sp?) they're immune to whatever Dream Dust you pull out of your asses (in case of internalized bag- literally).

The feat of giving advanced technologies to neolite race and tampering with their minds so they can understand it... irrelevant and not impressive. It proves that a)he has that knowledge; b)he can implant it in the heads of lots of people.

Also, darling, stop parading around the feats of mind controlling GLs. Kyle's mind was tampered with in prep, is protected by mindlink\mind alteration from Tangent Superman (I've posted what is "psychic governor"😉 and additional shielding from Zatanna (who has prevented Martian Manhunter from reading JLA's minds, and has shielded the League from Despero's mind control\mind probing). I have no doubts he'll own unprotected Kyle (SLIGHT doubts to be fair since Kyle has several impressive anti-mindcontrol feats).

The relevant feats were posted before in the "reference" post, but I'll add some more just to show that attempts of Captain Comet to do ANYTHING to our team via TP are null and void.

http://img49.imageshack.us/i/scan0012eo3.jpg/
http://img406.imageshack.us/i/scan0013cr6.jpg/
http://img406.imageshack.us/i/scan0014dh7.jpg/
Despero was mind controlling J'onn AND Aquaman, both top tier telepaths, in that case. Any doubts that Zee-made mind shielding is sufficient to keep Captain Comet away?

And IF you're start talking about Comet being>>Despero TPwise....well, that's when I know it's time to GTFO from the tourney for you.
Basically the only thing that rices Despero above the caps is his TP, and saying Comet is better=BS of the highest order.

But that's all about our Ms Sexy Fishnets. Let's get to the bald brothah...

Tangent Earth technology is ahead of New Earth technology. Yet NOTHING on Tangent Earth can harm Tangent Superman...he evolved beyond the ability of their tech or metas to harm them.
http://img296.imageshack.us/i/tangentsuperman009hi2.jpg/

Evolved "milllenia beyond the current mankind", and we're talking millenia beyond technologically advanced race, and not the bunch of random cavemen.
http://img267.imageshack.us/i/23oh6.jpg/

The most powerful member of Tangent League.

Originally posted by Avlon
Superman becomes part of the JLA who are equipped with some other powerful characters. For example...WW who can erase beings from existence. Batman, the undead knight cursed by Merlin. Atom, who can play with molecular density in himself as well as other beings, and Green Lantern, who can bring the dead to life to fulfill their desires.

Even then...he sees this as a way to relieve boredom.

Confirmed
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff191/Galan_photos/tangent1.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff191/Galan_photos/tangent2.jpg

Another reason why the fog of yours is useless to the extreme (though nobody seems to argue against that)
http://img61.imageshack.us/i/tangentjla21op7.jpg/

Official Post #3
Counter-Post
Astral Control…Zee is doomed
Awesome, but it’s not mind control. So you’re back to square one. Once again chaos god who has no feats is not above the Great Beasts and still ignoring the fact that Talisman is the Spirit-Binder who controls ALL spirits including Zee’s astral form and we know he can do it as he has done it on bigger fish then Zee. You’re not getting away from that, and once again because Zatanna resisted a being that is nothing like Talisman and has completely different powerset doesn’t prove your case it actually hurts it. As I mentioned Shaman, not even Talisman II beat a chaos deity too. Meh! For you.

No the spirit test was for Shaman (not Talisman yet) to understand more about magic and be able to wear the Talisman of Power and not to rely just on his medicine bag but use the magic himself. Fact. Once again you don’t seem to grasp, with Zee is in the area Talisman could literally stop her from using her magic all together, or just being even close to Talisman her magic would feed him making him stronger. So there are several ways Talisman can defeat or downright control Zee. Bad luck for her. If it comes down to a battle between Talisman II and Zee, Talisman II wins quickly and easily by not just because you made the astral projection mistake but due to overall power, magic cancellation and the prescene of Zee would only make Talisman stronger. Not good for Zee at all

The casting question
That’s nice, but that wouldn’t work. Lets ignore the fact Zee would be under control of Talisman due to trying to attack in her astral form (which you are doing), Talisman doesn’t need his pouch or his hands to cast spells so who cares?. Ok? I never said he was going to do that, it was just an example of him doing a feat just by saying a word which he has done before. So has Shaman (not even Talisman)

Dust from the Realm of Dreams & Handful of baubles
That’s nice you’re in an airtight bubble but you don’t have to breath the sand in for it to work. Also once again magic is a big no no with a being that simply can cancel magic out as Talisman has done countless times. Also are you forgetting the handful of baubles? I wouldn’t as you’re not getting away from that. KABLAMO once again your team enters dream land from either the dust or the baubles. You’re choice.

Teaching a Cavemen
“The feat of giving advanced technologies to neolite race and tampering with their minds so they can understand it... irrelevant and not impressive” Ummmm…what? Where did it say he tampered with their minds? Indulge me please, as because later that race appears and comments several times that Comet taught them and nothing to do with mind-control or tampering. Not once did they say Comet tampered with their minds. I love the fact Brianiac is impressed and down right shocked by the feat, but apparently you’re not impressed? Hmmmm….

Comet & Green Lanterns
Who says he even needs mind-control to beat Kyle? Comet has one-shotted Hal who is Kyle’s superior. Comet also has speed just as fast as Flash and add that in with his vastly superior strength.
1. http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/MachineMan616/SSOSV006-03.jpg
….Zoom and kaboom end of Kyle.
1. http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/MachineMan616/SecretSocietyOfSuper-Villains_02_05.jpg

Tangent Earth > New Earth tech. Ummm point?
Ooooook and the point of that comment was? As Comet doesn’t live on Earth and hasn’t for over 30 years. So not sure why you mentioned T.S’s tech is better than New Earth when Comet has been in space longer then T.S has been alive. Comet is surrounded by tech, T.Superman has never encountered before. If you doubt Comet’s tech abilities he actually modified Rip Hunter’s time machine in Infinite Crisis.

Despero & Comet, and Despero & Zee
No I would wager Despero is better, but once again it all depends on his host as some are stronger than others. He’s very much like Solomon Grundy and varies in powerlevels. In one incarnation he beat Aquaman and Martian Manhunter, other times Martian Manhunter beat him by himself.

First off that’s the instance you’re talking about with Despero? Wow, and here I thought you were talking about another time. Where did she put up any telepathic defences in the scans you posted? She snuck attacked Despero and froze him before he even knew that she was there. Hell a few issues earlier Aquaman pretty much did the same thing, but threw rebar through him. Im sorry to say that little feat had nothing to do with telepathy. She froze him so of course his telepathy cancelled out. Not exactly the same thing you were claiming she did earlier or could do. That's like knocking someone out, if their out of course their telepathy stops. Its not like she put up telepathy defenses or removed the telepathy or she would have said it in the spell itself.

Most powerful Tangent member & milllenia beyond the current mankind? Once again…point?
What does that have to do with anything? Some characters are better suited to fight different people like Talisman and magic users and Comet with T.Superman as he has shown to be affected by telepathy before. You also make the claim he has evolved 1,000 years ahead of everyone else and beyong harm. However, guess what? Comet has evolved 10,000 years (or 100,000 years as some sources say) ahead of everyone else from the day his powers were first activated and is basically invulnerable himself. Lets put this into perspective, “…born with mutant powers and abilities that would not be common on Earth for ANOTHER 100,000 years.”
1. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/whoswho04-10-1.jpg
Making Comet far more “evolved” then T.Superman. Also are you saying T.S is completely invulnerable? as per the rules that’s a no no. In addition Comet has Flash level speed so if he wanted to he can make short work of him.

Fog of Invisibility
This spell was not a big deal as it was a means to disorient you guys and you would waste time trying to locate them. You’re using Tangent Superman to locate them? Now that wouldn’t be easily as are you forgetting Tangent Superman has a hard time with magic. This tactic still provides time for our team to react before you can even find us. Another mistake on your part that benefits our team further
1. http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9351/tangentjla19ra5.jpg

Summary:
-Spirit control is not mind-control
-Zee falls under his control due to being in astral form.
-Zee being in the area would feed Talisman more power making him stronger.
-Talisman can still cast spells without use of his hands or his pouch (not like it would come to that anyways)
-You’re magical shields would be cancelled out by Talisman II as he has done so in the past and to bigger fish then Zee.
-Magical dust and the handful of baubles would still affect your team putting you and your “constructs” to sleep in more ways than one.
-Despero varies in power levels greatly
-The instance your talking about concerning Zee and Despero had nothing to do with telepathy
-Comet can knock out Kyle with his superior strength and Flash-level speed just like what he did to Hal Jordan
-Comet has evolved far more then T.Superman by over thousands of years more and T.S has shown to be affected by telepathy before giving Comet the edge.
-Tangent Superman is completely invulnerable? That goes against the rules
-Tangent Superman won’t easily find the team with the fog of invisibility due to having troubles with magic.

1st post

kyle's mental fortitude sans power ring (dope ass feat):

http://a.imagehost.org/0043/GreenLantern124p11.jpg

http://a.imagehost.org/0040/GreenLantern124p12.jpg

breaks psimon's mental domination power:

http://h.imagehost.org/0568/nt116-022.jpg

http://h.imagehost.org/0929/nt116-023.jpg

combine that with my dude harvey dent backing him up, taking him mentally isn't happening, the daxamite hooligan beatdown is def a go.

capt. comet isn't cracking him.

speaking of that:

http://h.imagehost.org/0164/Green_Lantern_v3_089_pg19.jpg

http://h.imagehost.org/0086/Green_Lantern_v3_089_pg20.jpg

since kyle is pretty much hell bent on seeing your team getting shitstomped, any damage to his constructs will be regenerated (if they can even be damaged at this point). their attack style will be akin to a team of stardusts repeatedly battering your team at high speeds while relaying any and all trauma directly to your team, courtacy of zatanna. so any trauma received and any trauma given (normal punches, superman punches, etc) will be sent to you.

bill might let go of stormbreaker during some of this, and when he does our constructs will pick it up and continue to beat you with it. non-living structures and such circumvent the worthiness enchantment allowing our constructs to use stormbreaker as a bludgeoning tool, it's be good enough, and repeated speed force punches from the daxamites hand that corresponds to bill's will most likely loosen his grip on his mallet.

he'll have two mon-el style daxamites on his shit by the way.

the daxa-constructs can knock out your guys from jump anyway, talisman would be headless before he can do any fancy stuff, comet...i guess he'll put up a better fight, but eventually defeat is in the cards, and bill goes to valhalla.

oh yeah, kyle bypassing the shields of solaris:

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0674/dccomics1M4pg08

whom has mad juice behind his protection.

Kris Blaze's official post #2

Not a whole lot to respond to here.

Beta Ray Bill’s rain, storms and thunder

You misunderstood earlier, interfering with your team’s preparation was not my intention. Bill’s weather powers will naturally not be able to do anything to the battlefield until the bell has rung and the fight has actually started. Rain will not pour until we are allowed to attack one-another. That being said, I have already demonstrated the power of these storms earlier on. Rain strong enough to stop the Hulk in his tanks and halt an entire army. (Check prep post) Thunder strong enough to knock out Hulk, Surfer and many other powerful beings.

Alpha Ray:
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Beta%20Ray%20Bill/Stormbreaker522-23-1.jpg

Battlefield movement

How exactly will you guys be navigating the battlefield anyways? You have storms that will not only make it impossible to safely navigate, but deal major damage to Kyle, Zatanna and Harvey’s soft and fragile bodies. You have a fog that makes it impossible to see, not to mention Harvey’s problems with detecting things through magic. You have Bill who will absorb -any- kind of energy structure or attack that appears. Then there’s also the anti-flight powder and sleeping powder that Shaman released at the beginning of the fight. Leaving your protective bubble is suicide.

Removing your defenses

So while you guys are stuck inside your little protective bubbles, Bill can easily manipulate said magic. By working his hammer, he can wrest control of any form of energy and absorb or reroute it. Forcefields are nothing but energy, be it magic, green lantern stuff or psionic energy. Kyle has a history of being weak to energy manipulation and absorption, and Bill has a history of overriding Ego the living planet’ control. It should be fairly simple to see how deep you guys are in trouble here. No defences that Bill can not bring down. Anti-Magic, energy manipulation, energy absorption and he can use his magnetic control to cancel Kyle’s focus.

Kyle’s mental fortitude

Kyle definitely has some mental resistance feats under his bag. Unfortunately this does not prevent others from taking control over his ring/constructs. While Kyle will definitely have some sort of resistance towards mind-control, which is already banned, he cannot prevent being immobilized/attacked. The thing with mindblasts is that you can’t really resist them after they’ve been performed, they’re like a punch or an energy blast. It’s true that Comet controlling Kyle is difficult to say, but harming him with telepathy should be a piece of cake.

Tangent Superman’s mental abilities

I have no doubt that Harvey is a formidable telepath. Unfortunately he has several weaknesses, such as not having a single telepathic shield up. Doctor Psycho was able to invade his mind in half a second, and Harvey was not able to push him out telepathically. Looking at the scan, we can see Harvey using his telekinesis to stop him. Unlike Captain Comet, who can take a mental assault and then simply turn it back on his opponent:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/MachineMan616/SSOSV08-16.jpg
Versus
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Misc%20tourney%20scans/tsr_12_08.jpg

Summary
- Magic only strengthens Shaman or can be cancelled by Bill.
- Your telepathic defences are limited to resisting mind-control.
- Your protective bubbles can easily be absorbed by Bill.
- You can not move around the battlefield.
- You have no attack that we cannot absorb/cancel out.

i for one am still fighting the "daxamite debacle", creating mobile, flying bricks well within the rules, kyle's just damn good at it:

http://h.imagehost.org/0885/GreenLantern140-03.jpg

(thanks to charlotte for the scan)

not sure where the ruling came about that put a cap on his ability to create a simulacrum of an alien species WITHOUT the dna or thoughts of a daxamite, just their strengths and attack style culled from kyle's memory of them + his skills as an artist to animate said memories.

anyway, some stuff about his shields:

takes a high powered shot from extent right in the torso and lives, note that this was a spur of the moment feat so his shielding here could have been even greater if he was prepared for it.

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0935/19_Zero_Hour_02_Page_17_Image_0001

another instance:

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0354/Green_Lantern_Flash_Faster_Friends_01-47

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0171/Green_Lantern_Flash_Faster_Friends_01-48

and when he's got even more forewarning.....

http://a.imagehost.org/view/0874/Green_Lantern_The_New_Corps_2_Page_09_Image_0001

http://a.imagehost.org/view/0956/Green_Lantern_The_New_Corps_2_Page_10_Image_0001

http://a.imagehost.org/view/0855/Green_Lantern_The_New_Corps_2_Page_11_Image_0001

http://a.imagehost.org/view/0163/Green_Lantern_The_New_Corps_2_Page_12_Image_0001

beta ray bill's storms and blasts should be staved off by shields easily,
and our constructs durability is nothing to laugh at either.

and here is kyle making supergirl move lightspeed via will:

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0206/NTT124-09

so he can in fact make his super hard constructs move at the speed cap if he wants to (and he definitely does here) so not sure what the problem is with his ability to create useful constructs when he can do it within the rules at stronger levels.

should we just not call them daxamites? cause they're really not.

Post #4...or whatever. Debating for Zatanna and Tangent Superman

So... daxamite constructs got banned under non-puppet type constructs rule. What does it change? Nothing.

Speedforce doesn't matter here at all, GL rings have speed lending feats on their own. See Gundam's post above for reference for speed boost to Supergirl.
http://h.imagehost.org/view/0206/NTT124-09
That's even safer than Speedforce wielding constructs that were Impulse-level at best, judges, thank for banning that.

So... reaction speed is still our advantage. And Zatanna\Tangent Superman can tap into Kyle's experience via mindlink.

How good would they be with GL rings (note- rings count so far- 2 for Harvey, 3 for Kyle, 1 for Zatanna)? I'd answer- BETTER than the MAJORITY of newb GLs, cause telepathy and magic are both willpower-based powers.
Considering that, I'd say that reaction boost from the rings would also apply to them. For reference to what I'm talking about.

Green Lantern V3 #166
Kyle was able to actually respond fast enough, and attempt to stop a space ship going at Warp Speed by a factor of 7. That’s an insane reaction/reflex time, since the ship is effectively flying at multiple factors above the speed of light.
http://h.imagehost.org/view/0558/19_10
http://h.imagehost.org/view/0531/20

So... Shaman and Comet are still dead meat, as tactics for dealing with them are entirely valid.

Let's recap them for judges' convinience and present NEW one (in fact, high-foolproof based ON feats).

The tactic number one included high-speed creation of water tank construct around Shaman. Mungi countered that with Shaman's ability to cast VERBAL spells. However, judges, let's remeber that the construct was initialy made to imprison logomancy-practicing mage=both tying hands AND gagging mouth. Show me Shaman (when his mouth is gagged and he can't move his hands) cast anything.
And no, Wind Spirit (Storm'esque powers) doesn't help Shaman to do anything there- as I've shown rings providing their wielders with FTL reaction speed. Northstar (Mach 10 in Earth's atmosphere) is also invalid argument...too slow, darling, too slow.

New tactic:
Harvey and Zatanna SWITCH their opponents.

In fact, it's HIGHLY foolproof one. Zatanna was beating telepaths on Despero level (scans posted) and has kicked J'onn out of her mind more than once. Captain Comet stands NO chance against magical attack.

On the other hand, show me Shaman taking psionic ATTACKS (not probes or mind control attempts that can be fought off on willpower only) from the telepaths on Tangent Superman level (Cable at his best days, X-Man... hell, even Xavier) without consequences (=his mind being destroyed or his will being broken enough to be not able to use pouch and control spirits).

Switching opponents tactic works wonders, darlings🙂

Post #4: Debating for Talisman & Captain Comet
Attack & Defense
Fog of Invisibility
This spell is still in place and the one you choose to locate us is weak against magic, so not sure how you’re “easily” finding us or the fact you are randomly changing partners which I’m sorry to say is not likely. This provides an opportunity to attack you much faster then you could locate us.

Handful of Baubles and the Sleeping Dust
Once again you’re ignoring an attack you have not countered yet and you would literally be put to sleep either from the dust or the handful of baubles. The spirit wind would disperse the sand and the baubles over the area leaving you no room to escape taking you out. Check. Set. Match.

Counter-Post
Talisman
Lordy lordy your prison tactic wouldn’t even work in the first place, and yes the wind spirit WOULD help as it can help him travel thousands of miles in a minute giving Talisman enhanced speed.
1. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight36-19.jpg
2. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight36-20.jpg

and the winds are potent enough to potentially destroy the prison too
1. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/AlphaFlight35-19.jpg
2. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/AlphaFlight35-20.jpg

Not sure why you would assume Talisman would be helpless if he did get in the prison (he wouldn’t unless you still completely the wind spirit giving him speed, the fog of invisibility, the sleeping dust and handful of baubles in the air, etc.) he is a telepath and can still summon spirits for aid. Won’t change a thing for him and then again he wouldn’t be put in that situation in the first place. In addition you just made Zee our newest member of the team and she would join in our attack making it a clean sweep.

Northstar Mach 10 in Earth Atmosphere?
Northstar can go Mach 10 in Earth atmosphere? Ummm…what? I assume you’re basing that off the handbooks as Northstar has shown to go far faster then that. 😬

Northstar [RUNNING] and wasn’t pushing himself going 2.5km/sec
1. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/Fanfare_28_02.jpg
2. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/Fanfare_28_03.jpg

Northstar moving at the speed of light
1. http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/xmen190005qg7.jpg

Show me a Green Lantern moving at the speed of light on Earth. As Green Lanterns activate light travel for transport in space, not Earth.

Switching Partners
Soooo you’re above post was pointless because you decided to change opponents? Well that was a waste of a post. First off you wouldn’t be able to switch mid-attack your miscalculation is something you wouldn’t be able to recover and for some odd reason be able to switch attackers. Especially when Talisman can INSTANTLY take over spirit forms so Zee is not switching with anyone sadly. To say oh….ummm…we shall switch when it is already far too late is not a feasible or even a realistic option. Zee is gone, she is now our newest member and can make her go to work for us. Also wait…so you say your going to imprison Talisman (which you can’t) but still change partners?

Talisman > Tangent Superman (telepathy)
Lets ignore the fact you wouldn’t be able to easily switch opponents, but why do you assume T.S could use his telepathy to a great affect on Talisman? As Talisman has far better telepathic feats then T.S, and Talisman (actually it was Shaman) has fended off telepath from people on Tangent Superman level. Ie. Carcass, who had complete and utter control of the Land of the Dead and was manipulating it with ease. Shaman was preventing Carcass from manipulating his team he brought to the Land of the Dead by sheer will alone. If he broke that concentration Carcass for instance turned Jeffries into a metal statue, aged Shaman into an old man, Diamond Lil to puke out her bones, Wyre to lose his hand and his “wires” attack him all because Shaman saw his wife in the Land of the Dead and lost focus. Once he got it back Carcass couldn’t do anything to his teammates or Shaman.

A huge error in your ploy is the fact you’re going to try to use telepathy on Talisman with T.S.? Did you forget T.S has troubles against magic? He even struggled to read Batman and Batman isn’t a telepath or even really a magical practitioner. Another costly mistake

Magic is bad for Tangent Superman
1. http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9351/tangentjla19ra5.jpg

Despero and Zee
Wow context. She beat a telepath by sneak attacking him and in a way that had nothing to do with telepath or telepathic defenses. Bad example.

Summary
-Still will have a hard time tracking us with the fog of invisibility especially when you wanted T.S to track us when as noted he is BAD against magic.
-Still ignoring and put up no defense against the handful of baubles or the sleep dust so your team is going to sleep in more ways then one.
-Northstar can go much faster then mach 10 as you claimed
-Can’t merely just switch partners that’s not possible or likely, and once again Zee is now part of our team.
-Talisman is a better telepath then T.S, and in battle T.S will lose as he is BAD against magic.
-Zee beat Despero from a sneak attack that had nothing to do with telepathy or telepathic defenses

Continuing the debate.

Mungi, pray tell me, what does the Elisabeth's magic absorbtion property have to do with her dad? Cause Circlet of Enchantment only helps with the spirits and control over them. Magical reversion is the power of Elisabeth, and you've drafted AND using Michael.
Him being Talisman only gave him greater power over spirits, and nothing more. Elisabeth's power over magic is inborn, her being Native American Messiah.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/A_Flight2/AlphaFlight18-20.jpg

The power is inborn, at best Circlet of Enchantment only helps to control that power. So... Elisabeth's feats are highly irrelevant, as magical absorbtion\reversal is her INBORN power, not the one of Circlet.
No more Elisabeth's feats for Michael, please... and IIRC, he DOESN'T have magical reversal feats on his own. His daughter's feats aren't cutting it, sorry.
http://uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=86&page=2
Here's more on Circlet, and the proof that it's NOT the sourse of Talisman's power (the only thing Michael got from wearing it is unity with spirits, and not Elisabeth's inborn powers, Michael even call her "magical mutant" of sorts...she's kind of magical Bishop by birth and not because of Circlet).

And no magic absorbtion spells your doom... cause anything else Shaman does is useless. All you got from Talisman's position is greater control over spirits (useless in the tourney where summons are banned), not Elisabeth's inborn powers.
Speaking of spirits...
Shaman does NOTHING to Zee who has resisted Xaos' control over her spiritual self. While his summons can be rendered useless. How?

Green Lantern ring can control spirits or souls... Quite easily, TBH.

http://h.imagehost.org/0448/JLA_73_pg19.jpg
http://h.imagehost.org/view/0236/JLA_73_pg20
http://a.imagehost.org/0142/JLA_73_pg21.jpg

Zatanna has experience of trapping spirits...does that to Red Tornado, who's the closest thing to your Wind Spirit.
http://img359.imageshack.us/i/06qa7.jpg/

http://img359.imageshack.us/i/16vf6.jpg/
http://img301.imageshack.us/i/17tf5.jpg/
http://img148.imageshack.us/i/18zj9.jpg/

And without magical absorbtion (which is Elisabeth's INBORN power and is not depending on Circlet) Shaman is not safe from that...nor from the green construct covering his mouth and hands to prevent him from casting.

Hell, without magical absorbtion he's not safe from THAT:
http://img17.imageshack.us/i/zatannastop1.jpg/
http://img9.imageshack.us/i/zatannastop2.jpg/
And then... simple ring blast to the face is enough.

Same goes for Beta Ray Bill suddenly being able to use Thor's high end feats and tap into his experience. "Hammer wishpering"=\=direct mindlink by high end telepath (that allows Harvey and Zee to tap into Kyle's experience)... Exactly HOW MUCH of the information from Thor's millenia of experience he's going to absorb in 5 minutes or less especially when: a)Bill is leagues away from Midgard (and making it rain won't bring it any closer); b)hammer talking to our alien boy=\=mindlink in any sence of the word.
He doesn't share Thor's immunities to magic AFAIK. And thus freeze spell that held in place both Zauriel and Etrigan (high level angel and demon respectively) would make sure Billy the Alien Boy stands still for THAT.
http://img354.imageshack.us/i/28096454.jpg/
Beta Ray Bill<<<<Starbreaker.

To sum everything up-

You can't prove you have magical absorbtion powers;

Your spirits are highly useless cause of being containable;

Bill certainly CAN'T use all the Thor's feats and doesn't share his immunities due to his Gaea birthright

Your guys can be magically frozen in place long enough for simple, non-sentient constructs to play havoc with you (and those constructs can move on multiples of lightspeed)

Long story short... ban on Oblivion ark'esque stuff doesn't hurt your strategy at all, while you didn't prove Michael having Elisabeth's INBORN powers and hammer being able to give Bill such a plethora of knowledge without Thor being nearby (hammer link=\=mindlink to the actual person present on the battlefield).

ban on Oblivion ark'esque stuff doesn't hurt your strategy at all

OUR, not YOUR. Yours is in trouble with more than dubious use of Elisabeth's and Thor's feats🙂

Post #5: Debating for Talisman and Captain Comet
Attack
Handful of Baubles and Sleeping Dust
Not once did you or your team create a defense against this attack, and you’re going to sleep either from the dust or the handful of baubles and the wind spirit can easily cover the entire area as it has shown to cover thousands of miles in less then a minute.

Anti-magic
You made a costly mistake to have Zee go after Talisman as that would only make him stronger, and the fact he can simply cancel out magic all together and removing your shields for the handful of baubles and sleeping dust.

Captain Comet > Tangent Superman
Comet has vastly superior feats and abilities, and with his Flash level speed could make short work of T.S. Even the vastly inferior Dr.Psycho has easily affected T.S. mind before, and if he can do it Comet would do it easier and more effectively. T.S. would be going down to Comet.
1. http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Misc%20tourney%20scans/tsr_12_08.jpg

You also wanted to switch T.S to go after Talisman in mid-battle (which wouldn’t be possible), but that is even a more costly mistake as mentioned earlier T.S. is bad against magic. Here he had troubles with Batman who isn’t a telepath or even a magical user, just magical and T.S had difficulties. So either way T.S. is going down quickly by Comet or Talisman
1. http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9351/tangentjla19ra5.jpg

Even Shaman (not as Talisman) has better telepathy feats then T.S. Here Shaman a galaxy away communicates with Talisman who is on earth
1. http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/A_Flight8/AlphaFlight111-09.jpg
2. http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/A_Flight8/AlphaFlight111-10.jpg
3. http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/A_Flight8/AlphaFlight111-22.jpg
4. http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/A_Flight8/AlphaFlight112-09.jpg
5. http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/A_Flight8/AlphaFlight112-10.jpg
6. http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/A_Flight8/AlphaFlight112-11.jpg
7. http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/A_Flight8/AlphaFlight112-12.jpg
8. http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/A_Flight8/AlphaFlight112-13.jpg

Defense
Fog of Invisibility
Once again the fog is still in place, and the person you chosen to locate them is weak against magic making it even more difficult to track our team down giving us far more time to react and attack. While you have to track, react, and then attack.

Shields
Oh my, you sure are basing a lot of your attack on means that wouldn’t work. Not once did you really address how your team will overcome not one, but two types of shields for each of our team members?

Talisman summons a large shield to protect the civilians from the debris (who was weakened at the time).
1. http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/DC_CaptainComet/?action=view&current=OmegaF_4_0023.jpg

Talisman summons a shield from Thunderball (who was weakened at the time) who was augmented by Tanaraq to be at Beta Ray Bill's level of strength and power .
1. http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/DC_CaptainComet/?action=view&current=OmegaFlight_5_0006.jpg

Shaman (not as Talisman) summons a shield around the stadium preventing anyone from entering
1. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/ClassicX-Men027-04.jpg
2. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/ClassicX-Men027-05.jpg
3. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/ClassicX-Men027-09.jpg

Shaman (not as Talisman) creates a magical shield around the demonic area to prevent it from spreading as well as shields Wolverine from mind control.
1. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/w_179_004.jpg
2. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/w_179_005.jpg
3. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/w_179_006.jpg[/

Comet saves the team by encasing them all in a force field from the wreckage of crashing their spaceship
1. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/LEGION-36-06.jpg

Here Comet instantly puts up a shield that blocks a Green Lantern’s (Kyle) attack with no trouble.
1. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/Rann-ThanagarWar_02-18.jpg
2. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/Rann-ThanagarWar_02-19.jpg

Comet puts a shield around Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Hawkwoman and Adam Strange to protect them from Synn. The shield also shows it can block energy blasts
1. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/Rann-ThanagarWar_05-18.jpg
2. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/Rann-ThanagarWar_05-19.jpg

Clarification
Talisman of Power and the power it gives
“Cause Circlet of Enchantment only helps with the spirits and control over them”. Where oh where are you basing this on? As that’s VERY incorrect just like your Northstar comment. Ummm..maybe you should read the stories because as stated many times the Talisman of Power augments the users power as stated. As noted: “wears the The Cornet of Enchantment that allows (Talisman) to tap into the Earth’s available mystic energy, enabling her/him to cast a near infinite variety of spells for effects ranging from astral travel, prophetic visions, flight via levitation, energy blasts, magical shields, empatic bonding, matter manipulation….and sensing and neutralizing magic. While wearing the Cornet (Talisman) doesn’t need food or sleep.” All of which are stated to be granted from WEARING the Talisman.

Shaman has shown to absorb magic and grow stronger too. With the Talisman of Power makes it easier and amplifies their ability. Its even mentioned when Talisman encountered Ranaq again she did it more easily as noted that was due to WEARING the Talisman of Power. Her "mutant" powers allowed her to tap into magical abilities that took Shaman years to learn. That's all it meant sadly.

As I mentioned even Shaman has shown to cancel magic, even before donning the Talisman of Power which as stated their “ability to manipulate magic greatly AMPLIFIED by the circlet of enchantment”
1. http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/MachineMan616/Crystar-11-20.jpg
2. http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/MachineMan616/Crystar-11-22.jpg

Also what did posting that link mean? Also for the true Talisman yes the power is inborn, but if it’s in your blood (ie being Talisman I’s father) and performing the Spirit Test he too can become the Talisman, but you lose pretty much your emotions if you’re not the “true” Talisman. So no again.

Green Lantern and Zee are Spirit-Binders *snickers*
Wow, simply wow your claiming Green Lanterns and Zatanna have just as good spirit control then Talisman? First off that’s down right laughable, and the fact you posted those feats that don’t even come close to what Talisman has even done.

Let’s ignore the fact as noted, Talisman is a “mortal channel that the gods can fight the evil ones” or the fact that as noted “Taliman’s control over spirits is ABSOLUTE”. Talisman is important to the Rules of Engagement created by Eternity and as mentioned several times in that story her spirit control is ABSOLUTE.
1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-15.jpg
2. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-16.jpg
3. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-21.jpg

Dr.Strange calls the Talisman "a primal force of nature"
1. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/AlphaFlight78-10.jpg

Green Lantern scans
Wow, you got to mention context there. Kyle’s dead, he was killed when his heart was ripped out and Raven made his soul linger in our realm not just because of the ring but due to Raven himself keeping his soul tethered. As Raven is even holding Kyle’s heart in the last scan.

Prison
Once again, your prison tactic isn’t going to happen especially with Talisman’s magical senses, the wind spirit and Talisman being a telepath (he doesn’t need his hands or mouth) but not like it would even get to that point. Also you still did not account for the fog of invisibility, handful of baubles or the sleeping dust…again. Also you seem to think your getting past our shields pretty easily, almost like you completely forgot they were even there. I’m sorry to say your “prison” would fall to the shields as well.

Summary:
-Most of your attacks would be halted by our two types of shields we created in prep, and something you guys really never even addressed. Poor tactic.
-Once again you have ignored the Fog of Invisibility and you chosen Tangent Superman to try to locate, but as outlined in post # he is weak against magic.
-Once again you have no counter or defense against the handful of baubles and the sleeping dust
-Once again Zee is under our control doing that very costly astral projection
-Zee will not be doing any form of attack or defense as the baubles, the fog, the sleeping dust, the magic cancellation and the spirit control render her defenseless. You have yet to actually create a defense for that.
-Captain Comet has far superior feats to Tangent Superman and Tangent Superman has been shown to EASILY be affected by telepathy
-You even thought to change opponents, but that wouldn’t work as Talisman would be poor for T.S. As mentioned T.S is weak against magic and Talisman has better telepathic feats then T.S.
-How is Zee going to trap a spirit when she is a spirit herself and would be under Talisman’s power?
-The Talisman of Power grants the user FAR MORE abilities then spirit control as you claimed.

Communication feats are discarded there... range is irrelevant, if you want to talk about range... well, Tangent Superman has heard Hal Jordan from another UNIVERSE... that's better than galaxy-vast.

Also, what the hell does the range have to do with raw power or skill? I've already posted what happens when opponents are switched- Comet gets the same treatment Despero got there:
http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0012eo3.jpg
http://img406.imageshack.us/i/scan0013cr6.jpg/
http://img406.imageshack.us/i/scan0014dh7.jpg/

She was able to kick J'onn out of her head while suffering major damage of soul AND being comatose.
http://img413.imageshack.us/i/jlablackbaptism109yi5.jpg/
http://img509.imageshack.us/i/jlablackbaptism110yh0.jpg/

Or mindwipe him
http://img143.imageshack.us/i/jla115007ig7.jpg/

Martian Manhunter was stated to have one of the fastest minds in JLA...akin to Superman and Wonder Woman.

Tangent Superman has no issues with magically protected minds (Tangent Batman, sort of Wandering Jew cursed by Merlin and transformed by him into magical being). He can mindrape Shaman with the greatest ease.
http://img341.imageshack.us/i/tangentjla18ck6.jpg/
http://img341.imageshack.us/i/tangentjla19ra5.jpg/

Also, when you talk about Talisman, you talk about Liz in 99% of cases...should have drafted her if that's the case. Her father was never a true Messiah...just the keeper of the Circlet. So unless you can state he can replicate ALL of Elisabeth's powers, her feats are highly irrelevant.
As far as spirit trapping goes, well... Kyle has next to no idea how to do that consciously, and that's just the reference that the ring serves as tool for that. Capability showing...
Red Tornado showing is more relevant in that case, since it's the trapping of air elemental...

=================
If we're going by recaps... well, let's do that.

Our stealth

Magical invisibility
http://img77.imageshack.us/i/adventurecomics41925fp7.jpg/
Intangibility if rain is used to deal with latter
http://img6.imageshack.us/i/93794277.jpg/
Same thing just with ring
http://g.imagehost.org/view/0359/20_6

Magical dusts?
Cancelled via ring
http://h.imagehost.org/view/0652/GLC_032_03
Or via magic
http://img264.imageshack.us/i/freemindseb9.png/
http://img339.imageshack.us/i/jlaincarnations433wc8.jpg/

As for Shaman being capable of everything his daughter did... why did he seem amazed at her powers?
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/A_Flight2/AlphaFlight18-20.jpg
She's NATURAL with her powers, and the Circlet is an amplifier and not the thing that makes Talisman (by your own words). She was allowed to pull out the Circlet because she was Talisman (the Prophesied One) and not became Talisman by putting on the Circlet. You got it backwards, darling.

Also, if you're depending on having your hands and mouth free to do your magic...
Something like that created on lightspeed keeps you utterly defenceless for say mindrape
http://img228.imageshack.us/i/stealspowerxl7.jpg/
http://img225.imageshack.us/i/stealspower2ix1.jpg/

And the proof of legality for said lightspeed boost was given, so...Shaman can try and absorb any magic casted on him, there's still non-magical way to beat him.

Kris Blaze's Official Post #3

Beta Ray Thor

First I’ll explain how Bill actually becomes Thor whenever he wields his hammer. It’s not an interpretation, it’s just how it has been portrayed in the comics. It even says so right on the hammer, whoever is worthy shall possess the power of Thor. He obtains the physical properties of good ol’ Thor. Except for a set of beautiful hair and a handsome Norwegian’s face.

Even Odin had a hard time telling them apart:
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Thor_338-05.jpg

Further explanation:
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Thor_1989_411_20.jpg
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Thor_338-02.jpg
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Thor_338-08.jpg

Stormbreaker communication

Thor’s high end feats? I’m sorry, but this claim just screams ignorance on your behalf. Cancelling out some magic and manipulating the EMP spectrum is a far cry from Thor’s high end feats. Thor’s high end feats would result in instantly kill your entire team. You oughta be happy I decided not to make a case for Bill to simply absorb your teams consciousness or soul. Or would you counter it with another claim of Zatanna somehow being a superior magician to Odin? Bill has already manipulated gravity and Ego’s life-energies. Learning two basic spells from the remnants within Stormbreaker, is not a reach.

Kyle shielding attacks

You have not really proved that Kyle would be capable of stopping all of Bill’s attack. Nor have you been able to prove that he can keep Bill from absorbing/controlling anything he creates. No matter how strong your shields are, they will all get sucked right into Bill’s hammer. Leaving your team at the mercy of magical lightning, winds and rain. Not to mention whatever attacks Shaman and Comet have cooked up, which you have not proved that he can defend himself against. There are so many things you guys simply choose to ignore…

- Bill can absorb -ANYTHING-
- You are under constant attack from things capable of harming heralds
- You have not formulated a second attack plan after the Daxamite joke fell through
- No defence against whatever planet-busting energy blast Bill might feel like sending their way

I]Problems with Zatanna’s strategy[/I]

http://img406.imageshack.us/i/scan0013cr6.jpg/
http://img406.imageshack.us/i/scan0014dh7.jpg/
Despero Scenario is not applicable. Suddenly appearing in front of Comet and casting a freezing spell on him, will not go here for several reasons. She can not teleport. We have two guys capable of absorbing anything that exists in the high herald - trans level category. Third, breaking the mental hold of someone who is frozen in a spell does not equate telepathically superiority. 4 Stepford Cuckoos were able to shaft Cassandra Nova’s control over 40 students or so. Unless it’s a direct confrontation, it’s not exactly proof that one is a better telepath, not in the least.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2894/jla115007ig7.jpg
They did not mind wipe Martian Manhunter. This simply stated that part of the reason why they mind wiped people, was to keep memories away from J’onn. Once again, this would have been a telepathic sneak-attack at best. Not something that would work very well in this battle.

Tangent Superman’s telepathy

I have already addressed this before, but the both of you simply ignored my arguments. This is almost starting to become a habit here. I’ve been forced to repeat my points several times without them ever being addressed. This guy has two distinct weaknesses. He does not have any worthwhile telepathic defences. Dr.Psycho easily attacked him and even brought up memories from his past. That’s fairly basic telepathy. Further more, he has problems with magic, which means that anything Shaman or Bill comes up with will be serious trouble. Even if he does absorb some of Kyle’s experience, he will not have conquered his own fears. Which means that he will not be able to do anything against the colour yellow. Lightning and energy blasts are often yellow.

Summary

- Complete absorption defence by Bill and Shaman.
- Complete energy control by Bill.
- You have no way of bypassing our defences.
- You have no offence.
- Zatanna and Tangent Superman’s tactics are ripe with flaws.
- Our team does not require advanced use of Bill’s powers, it’s simply an alternative.

@twoyoungmen

-the sleeping dust

easily falls under the ring's re-programmed atmospheric countermeasures in which our team is encased in (see: above post on his shields), and you're forgetting zatanna has already cleansed the atmosphere with a powerful spell.
(Charlotte has gone over this earlier)

-handful of baubles

meh, you need them to be dispersed by the north winds....too bad europa is out of their jurisdiction, the spirit staff can't make long distance calls.(of the spirit has to hitchhike to europa, which ever one is up to you)

note* shaman's winds are dependent on his proximity to the spirits he calls apon to aid him, thus the long wait

shaman isn't a big concern imo, just get up in his face (invisible constructs) and bust him in his shit ala michael pointer:

http://yfrog.com/jl47134826j

kyle's mind is being supplanted by TS whom has removed the ring from john stewert's hand and claimed it as his own, plus we had kyle grant him one in prep AND had them share experience including past kyle feats, the rings are going nowhere lol.

our defenses are legendary and have been tested by many, they aren't going to crumble before lesser assaults especially now with greater focus.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

as i posted earlier, kyle has gone through the shielding of solaris, whom is a notch above michael twoyoungmen in power, you can even throw captain comet in their to back him up and solaris still has him beat.

so in essence our offense is able to attack your characters since we're invisible, and we have the juice to get in your shields provided we have the will to do so (which we do).

http://h.imagehost.org/0538/LegendsOfTheDCU38p09.jpg

literally drops bombs on a dude

http://a.imagehost.org/view/0897/glonemillion16
http://a.imagehost.org/view/0867/glonemillion17

a fresh ring charges starman's space station and his ring is still able to use his ring's abilities

http://h.imagehost.org/0368/GreenLantern-Annual7-20.jpg
http://h.imagehost.org/0410/GreenLantern-Annual7-21.jpg

takes a hit by, and counterattacks nekron (the man behind blackest night)

http://h.imagehost.org/0802/GreenLantern132-15.jpg

a tiny crack in your shields, that's all we need

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0033/JLA_61_pg06

shaman creates a force field for miles, kyle creates a construct that's even larger and keeps it moving

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0587/Green_Lantern_v3_134_08

creates big humanoid constructs to beat down nero's fear forces

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0879/Green_Lantern_142-15

heals himself (could easily be aplied to his comrades)

http://a.imagehost.org/0630/pg0022im.jpg
http://a.imagehost.org/0021/pg0023im.jpg

pwns ganthet's sinestro construct, would have done more but superman calms him down.

http://g.imagehost.org/view/0153/Green_Lantern_0-20
http://g.imagehost.org/view/0452/Green_Lantern_0-21

bye europa 🙂

http://a.imagehost.org/0244/pg0009im.jpg
http://a.imagehost.org/0955/pg0010im.jpg
http://a.imagehost.org/0851/pg0011im.jpg
http://a.imagehost.org/0664/pg0012im.jpg
http://a.imagehost.org/0051/pg0013im.jpg

hi europa 🙂 (if we want)

so yes, kyle definitely has the power to take shaman and company out hard and fast (pause) even without the others bracing his mental fortitude.

Team Post #9: Debating for Talisman and Captain Comet
Attack
Defenses
Are you guys forgetting our two types of shields? Why are you guys attacking us without even commenting on how your even going to get past them in the first place. While we have provided ways we can get to you.

Offense
All this talk about Talisman whats your defense against Beta Ray Bill or Captain Comet? Espeically when your earlier tactical error of going into astral form made Zee our newst member of the team

Counter-Post @ PG
Sleeping Dust & Handful of baubles
Directed at PG’s comments: Once again you don’t need to breath it in so your atmospheric countermeasures wouldn’t work. Also Zee has been under the control of Talisman for quite some time now *love how you guys keep ignoring that*, and any spell she would cast would easily be cancelled out by Talisman, and even make Talisman stronger himself

No the baubles do not need to be dispersed by the wind, the winds make it quicker and faster. Far faster for you to react. Ummm…what? The winds are out of his jurdistion? Oh my, where are you two getting your facts from? “to the Sacree, everything that exists--even lifeless stone--is animate, invested with a spirit force that can be called upon to give aid.” The wind on Europa can still be used as a wind spirit, just like how Talisman has used sprits before in different dimensions 😬 Also he has to wait for spirits? Once again where are you getting this information? Seriously.

What would invisible constructs mean to a guy who has magical senses and has Elder Gods feeing him information into his head? Espeically when the fact he can create invisible constructs himself. Also you’re comparing Micheal Pointer to Kyle? Oh my, lets ignore the context of the little detail as noted he took Alpha Flight by surprise when they weren’t looking for a fight (and off-panel) but Kyle is no where close to Pointer in overall power 😬

Counter-Post @ Charlotte
Shaman & Talisman
“As for Shaman being capable of everything his daughter did... why did he seem amazed at her powers?” I was very close to posting a facepalm smilie there. I don’t know, maybe due to the fact he made that comment years before he became Talisman II and way before he did the spirit test and was just Shaman then 😬

“She's NATURAL with her powers, and the Circlet is an amplifier and not the thing that makes Talisman (by your own words). She was allowed to pull out the Circlet because she was Talisman (the Prophesied One) and not became Talisman by putting on the Circlet. You got it backwards, darling.” Shaman is natural with his powers to and that’s why he was chosen first as Shaman, but he still took years to learn what Talisman could do easily. What? No I didn’t I even posted a direct quote saying all the abilities that wearing the Talisman gives. That’s due to the Elder Gods teaching them how to do the spells inside their head. Also what are you talking about?

“Also, when you talk about Talisman, you talk about Liz in 99% of cases...should have drafted her if that's the case. Her father was never a true Messiah...just the keeper of the Circlet. So unless you can state he can replicate ALL of Elisabeth's powers, her feats are highly irrelevant.” Ummmm…some of the best feats done by Talisman such as controlling skyfather beinfs was was done by Talisman II and the fact the Talisman of Power actually feeds him the spells just like what it did for Talisman I. The only difference apparently was the fact that Talisman II lost all his emotions as noted in the annual.

Magical Dust
How is Green Lantern going to cancel out the magical dust when GL’s are weak to magic. Also how will he even know to even defend against it? Will he even know what it is? Nope. Also you want to cancel it out with magic? Ok…but how are you going to do that with Zee when she was taken over a LONG time ago and a being who cancels magic at a much higher level is her opponent. So no again.

Intangibility
You wish to use intangibility as a defense, well Shaman (not as Talisman) has items to deal with that.
1. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight74-15.jpg
2. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight74-16.jpg

In addition Talisman himself can go intangible too. I thought intangibility was banned so that’s why I didn’t mention it earlier so there’s another escape from that prison (not like he will need it regardless)

Telepathy
How is communication feats discarded? Also that’s nice T.S has heard someone from another universe but so has Talisman and Captain Comet. Also there was a “thether” open for T.S. to follow actions in New Earth too meh!

Tangent Superman
Ummm…I don’t mean to burst your bubble, but when you say “Tangent Superman has no issues with magically protected minds (Tangent Batman, sort of Wandering Jew cursed by Merlin and transformed by him into magical being). He can mindrape Shaman with the greatest ease” you just posted scans of him saying he DOES have troubles reading him. That’s also Batman who has no telepathy, and not even a magical user like Talisman so that decreases T.S. chances of mindraping Shaman as you say 😬

What does range have to do with raw power or skill? Tell that to Professor X as he considered that quite the feat.

Despero
Why do you keep brining up the Despero scans of Zee attacking Despero from behind and in a manner that had nothing to do with telepathy or telepathy defenses as you claimed earlier it was 😬

The scans of Martian Manhunter were already addressed by Kris and you took some of them completely out of context…again. 😬

Summary
-Still neglecting to bypass our defenses
-Zee is once again still under OUR control
-Talisman does NOT have to wait for spirits
-Green Lantern defending against the dust is unrealistic as GL's are not great against magic and how will he even know what it is.
-Tangent SUperman is bad against magic, you even posted the scans saying so.
-Your intangibility defense is stoped by Talisman, and he himself can go intangibile too.
-You have taken several scans out of context

Originally posted by psycho gundam
i for one am still fighting the "daxamite debacle", creating mobile, flying bricks well within the rules, kyle's just damn good at it:

You're team was told to drop this issue but you've mentioned it twice since an official decision was made. Sorry, but I'm going to dock your team 1 official post. You now have a total of 9 not 10 for this round.

Originally posted by TheKahn
You're team was told to drop this issue but you've mentioned it twice since an official decision was made. Sorry, but I'm going to dock your team 1 official post. [b]You now have a total of 9 not 10 for this round. [/B]

no offense but maybe you mistakenly failed to notice quotations on "daxamite debacle" cause we are not using daxamites. they were just humanoid constructs that fall under gl constructs in which you allowed in the rules. after the daxamites we wanted to use got nixed just like the skuttlebutt vessel and such we had to change em.

plus the ruling is quite vague in it's bounds, a green lantern without the ability to create diverse constructs is unheard of and the actual banned constructs were replaced by not so banned ones.

what's the big d?

To simply summarize before the fight ends.

Beta Ray Bill’s form: You have not proven that Zatanna would be able to turn Bill into his Korbinite shape. This is not possible because of two things. One, it is not his default form anymore. It is a shape Odin granted him so that he would have some measure of peace of mind. It was a gift, and not a restriction as he placed on Thor in the past. Two, Zatanna is not a more powerful magician than Odin. She is not capable of overriding his magic. The Odinforce even lingers inside of Stormbreaker and she simply can not compete with that. If Zatanna was somehow more powerful than Odin, she would be breaking the power limit of the tournament.

Overcoming Absorption: You have not provided us with any kind of feats where you explain how your magic and energy would prevent itself from being absorbed. We have posted many incidents of Bill or Shaman absorbing energy, and you have not come up with a single counter for it. The best we’ve seen was you posting a scan of Shaman being killed off panel and claiming that Kyle would replicate this. That argument holds as much weight as us claiming we would rape Kyle off panel via using a tiny Mexican man from Ennis’ comics. It simply does not hold up in a debate.

Defense
There have been no attempts to penetrate our two types of defenses from the magical shields and the telekinetic shields created by Talisman and Captain Comet. In addition, Comet has implemented telepathic defenses for each member of our team and out of all 6 participants he is by far the best telepath here. All of which have been ignored by the team. Another spell that was ignored the fog of insivibility, which would waste time for the other team to track us, and the being you wished to use to track us. ie. T.S is noted to be weak against magic giving us extra time to attack, while you try to locate us.

Offense
Handful of baubles and sleeping dust
These items with the sprit wind taking these items across the battlefield would put you and your team fast asleep from the power of the baubles or the sleeping properties of the dust.

Magic
Talisman is the best magical user out of the 6, and you made a costly mistake going into astral form to try to go after him. Talisman is the spirit-binder and can command all spirits ABSOLUTELY, and has controlled sky father astral forms so Zee has no choice but to join our team. In addition any magic in the area can make Talisman stronger, or he can simply cancel it out as he has done so before many times.

Telepathy
As mentioned earlier Comet is the far better telepath user here, and you wish to use Tangent Superman against him, but with Comet’s superior speed, reflexes and telepathic abilities puts him clearly over the edge against T.S. In addition you proposed to magically switch characters and have T.S go against Talisman, however, that’s even a worse match for him as noted even by T.S himself he isn’t good with magic as he couldn’t read Batman who isn’t a magical user or a telepathy

By my count both teams are done with their posts. I'll PM the other judges and let them know they can start posting their decisions.

Deliberating...

Insomnia has struck again, so I'll go ahead and cast my vote.

Overall
This mostly seemed like a defensive match involving the team's two magic users which was somewhat disappointing given the firepower available to both teams. At this level, I assume top tier magician can counter each other (especially when they're from different universes and thus have never interacted). Ultimately, I just felt like you could have switched out Zatanna and Talisman's teammates and the majority of the fight would have remained the same.

Originality
Blaze/KM - 2/5
Gundam/Charlotte - 3/5

I was a little disappointed with Blaze/KM's initial strategy. They didn't seem to mesh their characters together very well. They did take reasonable precautions by putting up several types of defenses but there was just too little interaction between the teammates. Also, we've seen the baubles and sleep powder before (lets see something new!)

Gundam/Charlotte did a wonderful job of meshing their characters diverse power-sets together. I could see from their initial post why they drafted each character and that they had a clear plan for each. Sadly, much of their plan involved a tactic that was judged to be illegal or else they'd have a higher score here.

Effectiveness
Blaze/KM - 3/5
Gundam/Charlotte - 1/5

As I said, the seemed like defensive magic battle from the start leaving some questions about the team's offensive capabilities in my mind. Still both teams did a commendable job with providing scans to back up their claims and I was convinced to most give them the benefit of the doubt as a result. Sadly, Gundam/Charlotte was again hurt by the fact that so much of their offensive strategy seemed to center around the illegal constructs - they just never seemed to recover from them being taken away

Debating Skill
Blaze/KM - 9/10
Gundam/Charlotte - 9/10

KM and Charlotte seemed to carry most of the load in this debate and they did a exemplary job in my mind. Although they had some heated back-and-forths, each remained civil and it was obvious that they read their opponent's posts carefully and were sure to counter each major point with both counter-arguments and scans when possible. Really, those two did an outstanding job.

Winner
This was a very, very close match in my mind and it took me some time to come to a decision. But by a slim margin, I'm giving it to Blaze/KM. I honestly hope the other matches I judge are not this close. Good job to all involved.