Originally posted by Weltall
And in this context knowledge of the ability would correspond with the ability to use it given that it's listed under his "Special Abilities" heading, which is used in the Sourcebook to indicate what the character can actually use within the RPG under no condition beyond what is stated under the description of the power. And it's not entirely reflective on gameplay either given that it also references "abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes", which are never specified by the sourcebook and have absolutely no bearing on gameplay.
As no external condition is stated, that he can summon them without assistance is not up for discussion; that he can summon them on a whim is something that cannot be verified, but something that was never originally in question. To the original point in question - no, Sidious is not the only person who can be said to be possessive of the abiltiy to create Force Storms.
That being said, has it actually been proven that Sidious can summon them completely under his own power? I recall somebody (Glentract I think) once observing that he carried a Kaibur Crystal (a power enhancing device?) on him at all times and that he used the Eclipse as a mechanism for controlling the Force energies at his disposal, though I can't entirely speak on the matter from my own first hand level of knowledge.
There is no source to my knowledge that confirms Glentract's ancient claims regarding Palpatine's ability to conjure Force Storms. Nowhere is the Emperor confirmed or suggested to have a device or artifact augmenting his power.
Much as some try to escape it, Palpatine is the only Force user in canon to be a known practitioner of the Force Storm, and the only one able to conjure them without aid or effort. It's incontrovertible and, rather like Nadd's knowledge of the Storms, not up for discussion.
As Elok Quintly mentioned, the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia mentions that Jedi were able to combine their powers to summon Force Storms, suggesting that Freedon Nadd (unlike the Emperor) was unable to do so on his own.
Accept it and move on.
Originally posted by Gideon
Much as some try to escape it, Palpatine is the only Force user in canon to be a known practitioner of the Force Storm,
As I've already established this is quite simply incorrect. Nadd has been confirmed to possess knowledge of the technique, and given the context, the ability to use it without assistance. How much time and effort is required on his part is unspecified.
and the only one able to conjure them without aid
To my knowledge, that Sidious can conjure them without aid technically hasn't been confirmed, only assumed (and quite possible disprovable).
Nonetheless, Freedon Nadd has been confirmed to be capable of conjuring them without aid, so at best, Palpatine can be said to join him on the list.
or effort.
I don't recall a source documenting how much effort it took Sidious to summon them. I believe it's indicated that he could do so with little effort or time in the graphic novel, but again it's entirely possible that the amount of effort was mostly hidden and not elaborated upon, and that an amount of time passed that the immobile nature of the medium and the lack of detail in the writing were unable to precisely depict.
It's incontrovertible and, rather like Nadd's knowledge of the Storms, not up for discussion.
It's Nadd's knowledge of and ability to use the technique that's not up for discussion.
As Elok Quintly mentioned, the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia mentions that Jedi were able to combine their powers to summon Force Storms, suggesting that Freedon Nadd (unlike the Emperor) was unable to do so on his own.
This doesn't follow. Unless you're operating under a hidden premise this doesn't appear to make sense. That Jedi were documented to be able to collectively summon Force Storms doesn't deny the possibility that other Force Users were able to do so singelhandedly, or that the collective effort on the part of the Jedi was even required.
From what I can see, the interpretation of your argument that makes the most sense would be that, by "Jedi," the source material was referring to all members that could apply to the group, that Freedon Nadd, being a former Jedi, would fit into that group (and apply for his level of ability during the years after his time as a Jedi), and that the collective effort was in all cases a requirement. Or that in this case, the term Jedi was in reference to all practitioners of the Force, which would include Nadd, but would also include Sidious (unless Sidious had been excepted in the source material).
Or that, because it required (again, something not actually stated) the efforts of multiple Jedi, that it would be unlikely that Freedon Nadd, given his [lack of an/] established level/{lack} of ability, would be able to singlehandedly summon them?
Regardless, it's been confirmed that Freedon Nadd can summon them unassisted, and at best, you might have presented something that would otherwise have determined a certain probability that he couldn't.
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For the record, I'm pretty sure that the Force Storms that multiple Jedi were documented to have collectively summoned was a different ability altogether.
Accept it and move on.
Only if you ask nicely.
Nebaris
As I've already established this is quite simply incorrect. Nadd has been confirmed to possess knowledge of the technique, and given the context, the ability to use it without assistance. How much time and effort is required on his part is unspecified.
What you've established is inconsequential. Freedon Nadd is said to possess knowledge of Force Storms; nowhere is it indicated that he can conjure them alone, much less unaided. The extent of his knowledge of the technique may very well be that he knows how to spell it. All you have is an implication; which does not a valid argument make.
Nebaris
To my knowledge, that Sidious can conjure them without aid technically hasn't been confirmed, only assumed (and quite possible disprovable).
Your knowledge is painfully limited. That Glentract mistakenly claimed that Sidious was only able to conjure Force Storms via a Kaiburr crystal or the focusing mechanism of the Eclipse does not mean that either claim is factual; Glentract also claimed that Marka Ragnos was an unstoppable Force magus capable of playing ping-pong with planets. He was wrong.
Valid arguments are not made by assuming facts not in evidence. Until you can disprove the notion that Sidious can conjure them without aid, we are moving on.
Nebaros
Nonetheless, Freedon Nadd has been confirmed to be capable of conjuring them without aid, so at best, Palpatine can be said to join him on the list.
Until you can provide an outright statement that Nadd possesses the ability to conjure Force Storms without aid (or at all), we're moving on.
Nebaris
I don't recall a source documenting how much effort it took Sidious to summon them. I believe it's indicated that he could do so with little effort or time in the graphic novel, but again it's entirely possible that the amount of effort was mostly hidden and not elaborated upon, and that an amount of time passed that the immobile nature of the medium and the lack of detail in the writing were unable to precisely depict.
You always did have a selective memory.
"Through a simple act of will, I can generate Force Storms, energy storms that are vastly destructive and virtually unstoppable. Although triggering such storms requires mere thought and inclination, I admit I am not able to completely control this phenomenon." (the Essential Guide to the Force, page 179.)
Translation: he can do it whenever he wants with negligible effort.
Nebaris
It's Nadd's knowledge of and ability to use the technique that's not up for discussion.
No, just the knowledge.
As far as the rest is concerned, the Force Storms summoned by other collective Jedi are the same energy storms that can only be created by Palpatine.
A comprehensive synopsis of your argument is that you claim Freedon Nadd possesses the ability to conjure Force Storms without aid because a random sourcebook says that he possesses knowledge of the technique. Moreover, you conveniently ignore previously established information (the effort required by Palpatine to conjure Force Storms) and assume facts not in evidence (the entirety of the Nadd argument, Palpatine's mysterious "Kaiburr Crystal," ect).
To recap mine, the sourcebook does not outright state that Freedon Nadd possesses the ability to conjure Force Storms at all, let alone without aid. Sidious, on the other hand, is confirmed to be able to conjure them alone "with mere thought and inclination." The entirety of my argument is, by the way, based on canon evidence and assumes nothing.
Which is why my argument prevails. If you'd like to address this some other time, make sure you have something other than fallacies and logical blunders in your arsenal.
Originally posted by Gideon
What you've established is inconsequential. Freedon Nadd is said to possess knowledge of Force Storms; nowhere is it indicated that he can conjure them alone, much less unaided. The extent of his knowledge of the technique may very well be that he knows how to spell it. All you have is an implication; which does not a valid argument make.Your knowledge is painfully limited. That Glentract mistakenly claimed that Sidious was only able to conjure Force Storms via a Kaiburr crystal or the focusing mechanism of the Eclipse does not mean that either claim is factual; Glentract also claimed that Marka Ragnos was an unstoppable Force magus capable of playing ping-pong with planets. He was wrong.
Valid arguments are not made by assuming facts not in evidence. Until you can disprove the notion that Sidious can conjure them without aid, we are moving on.
Until you can provide an outright statement that Nadd possesses the ability to conjure Force Storms without aid (or at all), we're moving on.
You always did have a selective memory.
"Through [B]a simple act of will
, I can generate Force Storms, energy storms that are vastly destructive and virtually unstoppable. Although triggering such storms requires mere thought and inclination, I admit I am not able to completely control this phenomenon." (the Essential Guide to the Force, page 179.)Translation: he can do it whenever he wants with negligible effort.
No, just the knowledge.
As far as the rest is concerned, the Force Storms summoned by other collective Jedi are the same energy storms that can only be created by Palpatine.
A comprehensive synopsis of your argument is that you claim Freedon Nadd possesses the ability to conjure Force Storms without aid because a random sourcebook says that he possesses knowledge of the technique. Moreover, you conveniently ignore previously established information (the effort required by Palpatine to conjure Force Storms) and assume facts not in evidence (the entirety of the Nadd argument, Palpatine's mysterious "Kaiburr Crystal," ect).
To recap mine, the sourcebook does not outright state that Freedon Nadd possesses the ability to conjure Force Storms at all, let alone without aid. Sidious, on the other hand, is confirmed to be able to conjure them alone "with mere thought and inclination." The entirety of my argument is, by the way, based on canon evidence and assumes nothing.
Which is why my argument prevails. If you'd like to address this some other time, make sure you have something other than fallacies and logical blunders in your arsenal. [/B]
Owned like a white guy at a Cinco de Mayo festival.
Originally posted by Gideon
Now that that's cleared up, I leave it to DS to handle any further responses. I'm pretty much retired from debating on here and have no desire to get caught up in a protracted argument.
While I appreciate the vote of confidence, I'm pretty much done here as well. In regards to Nebaris, the report function works nicely.
Originally posted by Gideon
What you've established is inconsequential. Freedon Nadd is said to possess knowledge of Force Storms; nowhere is it indicated that he can conjure them alone, much less unaided. The extent of his knowledge of the technique may very well be that he knows how to spell it.
Originally posted by Weltall
And in this context knowledge of the ability would correspond with the ability to use it given that it's listed under his "Special Abilities" heading, which is used in the Sourcebook to indicate what the character can actually use within the RPG. And it's not entirely reflective on gameplay either given that it also references "abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes", which are never specified by the sourcebook and have absolutely no bearing on gameplay.
Originally posted by Kyrie Illunis
As no external condition is stated, that he can summon them without assistance is not up for discussion;
All you have is an implication; which does not a valid argument make.
It is not an implication; it is the only interpretation that the context allows.
Your knowledge is painfully limited. That Glentract mistakenly claimed that Sidious was only able to conjure Force Storms via a Kaiburr crystal or the focusing mechanism of the Eclipse does not mean that either claim is factual;
It's a good thing that no such claim was made then (Glentracts purportedly mistaken claims equating to fact).
Glentract also claimed that Marka Ragnos was an unstoppable Force magus capable of playing ping-pong with planets. He was wrong.
In your opinion.
Valid arguments are not made by assuming facts not in evidence.
Stating that Sidious - to my recollection - hasn't been confirmed to be able to conjure a Force Storm without aid =/= assuming that he can't conjure a Force Storm without aid.
Until you can disprove the notion that Sidious can conjure them without aid, we are moving on.
We'll move on when I say we can (or if you finally decide to ask nicely). A claim was never made on my part that Sidious couldn't conjure them without aid; just that it hadn't been confirmed that he could. As it stands proof hasn't been given for either the claim that he definitely can or cannot; as such my actual claim (that it hasn't been confirmed), as far as what evidence has been presented in this thread, remains correct.
Until you can provide an outright statement that Nadd possesses the ability to conjure Force Storms without aid (or at all), we're moving on.
Originally posted by Weltall
And in this context knowledge of the ability would correspond with the ability to use it given that it's listed under his "Special Abilities" heading, which is used in the Sourcebook to indicate what the character can actually use within the RPG. And it's not entirely reflective on gameplay either given that it also references "abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes", which are never specified by the sourcebook and have absolutely no bearing on gameplay.
Originally posted by Kyrie Illunis
As no external condition is stated, that he can summon them without assistance is not up for discussion;
Think of me as your teacher Gideon; don't run away from my lessons, embrace them.
You always did have a selective memory."Through a simple act of will, I can generate Force Storms, energy storms that are vastly destructive and virtually unstoppable. Although triggering such storms requires mere thought and inclination, I admit I am not able to completely control this phenomenon." (the Essential Guide to the Force, page 179.)
Translation: he can do it whenever he wants with negligible effort.
If we were to take Palpatine's words at face value and ignore the fact that his statements are subject to hyperbole, dishonesty, or human error (the last one being an admittedly safe assumption in this case, but the former ones not).
No, just the knowledge.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
No..
As far as the rest is concerned, the Force Storms summoned by other collective Jedi are the same energy storms that can only be created by Palpatine.
Not that this has any bearing on my argument whatsoever, but do you have any proof for this claim? The name has been used to describe numerous techniques.
A comprehensive synopsis of your argument is that you claim Freedon Nadd possesses the ability to conjure Force Storms without aid because a random sourcebook says that he possesses knowledge of the technique.
Originally posted by Weltall
And in this context knowledge of the ability would correspond with the ability to use it given that it's listed under his "Special Abilities" heading, which is used in the Sourcebook to indicate what the character can actually use within the RPG. And it's not entirely reflective on gameplay either given that it also references "abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes", which are never specified by the sourcebook and have absolutely no bearing on gameplay.
Originally posted by Kyrie Illunis
As no external condition is stated, that he can summon them without assistance is not up for discussion;
Moreover, you conveniently ignore previously established information (the effort required by Palpatine to conjure Force Storms)
Palpatine's statements do not equate to established fact, and they were being ignored because they served no purpose with respect to the point being made.
and assume facts not in evidence (the entirety of the Nadd argument,
Originally posted by Weltall
And in this context knowledge of the ability would correspond with the ability to use it given that it's listed under his "Special Abilities" heading, which is used in the Sourcebook to indicate what the character can actually use within the RPG. And it's not entirely reflective on gameplay either given that it also references "abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes", which are never specified by the sourcebook and have absolutely no bearing on gameplay.
Originally posted by Kyrie Illunis
As no external condition is stated, that he can summon them without assistance is not up for discussion;
Palpatine's mysterious "Kaiburr Crystal," ect).
No assumption was made; I remember mention of such a device but explicitly stated that I could not personally verify it and brought it up in case there was some validity to it that somebody else would be able to confirm. Questioning the existence of something =/= assuming that it exists.
Then going on to state that it hasn't been confirmed that Sidious can conjure Force Storms unaided (per the evidence presented in this thread) was not an assumption, it was an expression of the facts.
To recap mine, the sourcebook does not outright state that Freedon Nadd possesses the ability to conjure Force Storms at all, let alone without aid.
Originally posted by Weltall
And in this context knowledge of the ability would correspond with the ability to use it given that it's listed under his "Special Abilities" heading, which is used in the Sourcebook to indicate what the character can actually use within the RPG. And it's not entirely reflective on gameplay either given that it also references "abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes", which are never specified by the sourcebook and have absolutely no bearing on gameplay.
Originally posted by Kyrie Illunis
As no external condition is stated, that he can summon them without assistance is not up for discussion;
Sidious, on the other hand, is confirmed to be able to conjure them alone "with mere thought and inclination."
If we were to take Palpatine's words at face value and ignore the fact that his statements are subject to hyperbole, dishonesty, or human error (the last one being an admittedly safe assumption in this case, but the former ones not).
The entirety of my argument is, by the way, based on canon evidence and assumes nothing.
Ok, I'll take your word for it.
I'll ignore the fact that your argument not only assumes that Palpatine's own statements are entirely immune from human error, dishonesty or hyperbole, not to mention that shockingly bad non sequitur (which you thankfully seem to have abandoned) which would rely on a number of assumptions to even come close to making logical sense, but Ill also ignore the assumptions that he can conjure them without assistance (and because I'm being nice I'll ignore the burden of proof fallacies made in conjunction with the above mentioned logical blunder as well).
Which is why my argument prevails. If you'd like to address this some other time, make sure you have something other than fallacies and logical blunders in your arsenal.
Name one.
Your straw man arguments =/= my fallacies and logical blunders.
Originally posted by Elok Quintly
The Kaiburr Crystal rigmarole is SuperShadow fanon and should not warrant any mention.
You are a liar (and a coward)!
The Kaiburr Crystal has appeared in numerous sources, most notably Splinter of the Mind's Eye (which also happens to be its first appearence). According to Glentract Luke kept one half inside his lightsaber and Sidious carried the other half on a pendant (which he later recovered during the Dark Empire saga).