Re: Mace Windu and Yoda run the gauntlet!
OPCake.
So Yoda and Mace run the gauntlet, simply say which one they would lose at.Scenario: Mace and Yoda are thrown into the Geonosis arena and are faced by opponents stage by stage. They decide to team up to take them down, will they survive?
1. Darth Maul
2. Asajj Ventress
3. ATOC Anakin and ATOC Obi Wan
4. Count Dooku and 5 battle droids.
5. ROTS Obi Wan and Shaak Ti
6. General Greivous and 3 Magnaguards
7. ROTS Anakin, Kit Fisto and Agen Kolar
8. Jango Fett and 30 Clone troopers
9. Luke Skywalker (ROTJ), Han Solo, Chewbacca, Ben Kenobi
OPI'll assume this is Marek post-conversion (if not, Jedi win handily) and Kota before he was blinded.
10. Darth Vader, Galen Marek and Rahm Kota
I think it's reasonable to assert that Yoda and Palpatine were roughly equal in power at the conclusion of the PT. A quarter century later, it's been made clear that Palpatine has grown stronger. The question is, how much stronger? Given that Vader - and likely by extension, Marek - commands power equivalent to about four fifths that of the Emperor, it's possible that either of them could contend with Yoda in a contest of the Force if the Emperor's increase in power between the PT and OT lies near the upper bound of that last fifth.
However, if the Emperor did not experience an increase in overall power equivalent to at least a tenth [half a fifth] his OT power - if he had already passed the four fifths benchmark by the end of the PT - it's unlikely that Vader or Marek will be able to hold Yoda off for very long at all; for all his prodigious strength, Marek - the greater of the duo in question - was ultimately deemed "no match" for the Emperor's powers. If having more than four fifths of the Sith Lord's power isn't enough to slow him down significantly, and if the Emperor isn't that much more powerful than he was when he fought Yoda, this particular battle probably won't go too well for the trio. [/pseudomath]
While I understand that Yoda would neither be as strong or savage as Palpatine, he's strong and savage enough to kill telekinetically if he needs to, and his ability to handle Sith lightning - apparently a favorite of Marek's - appears to be unrivaled in the mythos.
Ultimately, I don't how this one goes. In my mind it hinges on an answer we don't have, and I've never been especially familiar with most of the sources chronicling Sidious' post-PT growth. I think Windu's capable of taking Vader or Marek through the merits of Vaapad, shatterpoint, and his own considerable command of the Force, which should allow him to counter or evade enough of their attacks that he can close to melee range. None of the trio stand a chance if that happens.
Kota's another wildcard here. He's an extraordinarily capable soldier in his own right, particularly given his strength in the Force. If he can throw Mace off at all, either Vader or Marek can take point for the kill.
If my suspicions are correct, though, I think Yoda's probably fast and powerful enough to sweep his opponent after a short, brutal struggle. Kota goes down hard, and whoever's left - almost regardless of whether or not Mace is still up - doesn't stand a chance alone.
OPIf OT Sidious, the Sith win. If not, they probably don't.
11. Darth Sidious and Darth Vader
OPHonestly, this is probably easier than the preceding two rounds. Yoda and Mace are in a league of their own here, and if they cut loose the Padawans, Knights, and probably the generic Masters won't last long at all. The Council members are all spectacular swordsmen, but none have demonstrated proficiency in any relevant category that suggests they can challenge the two greatest warriors in the Order. Their numbers are more likely to be a hindrance to their saber prowess, anyway.
12. 3 Expirienced Jedi Masters, 6 Jedi Knights, 10 Jedi Padawans, Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, Coleman kcaj, Eoth Koth.
Good thread, though.
The statistic provided by George Lucas probably requires alternate interpretation; the truth is that there is no basis for Vader having four-fifths of the Emperor's power unless, as you suggest, that final fifth is incredibly significant.
Really, Palpatine was pulling his punches with Marek and demonstrated by the alternate ending, could have truly kicked his ass whenever he felt so inclined -- it was not a close duel or a struggle for the Emperor to subdue Marek when necessary.
The level of fear he inspires in Vader and Dooku suggests quite strongly that he's at least a tier above them.
GideonI know.
The statistic provided by George Lucas probably requires alternate interpretation; the truth is that there is no basis for Vader having four-fifths of the Emperor's power unless, as you suggest, that final fifth is incredibly significant.Really, Palpatine was pulling his punches with Marek and demonstrated by the alternate ending, could have truly kicked his ass whenever he felt so inclined -- it was not a close duel or a struggle for the Emperor to subdue Marek when necessary.
The level of fear he inspires in Vader and Dooku suggests quite strongly that he's at least a tier above them.
What I'm not sure of is roughly how much of his OT power Palpatine had acquired by ROTS. I think that's information we need to decide how Yoda's strength in the Force compares to that of Vader and Marek.
Eminence
I know.
I know you know.
I was re-reading Dark Rendezvous the other day and, in addition to establishing it as the ultimate piece of Star Wars literature (surpassing the Revenge of the Sith novelization, et al.), I gleamed over the passage where Dooku criticizes his Master's "needlessly complex" strategies for winning the war. Therein is this little gem: "Not that he would question the power of Darth Sidious. The dark secrets at his command."
Labyrinth of Evil, Dark Rendezvous, and even Asajj Ventress's newly established Clone Wars profile make it abundantly clear that the Count and his underlings regard Sidious with an almost absurd level of fear and respect. That Dooku does not extend this same level of reverence to Yoda is interesting; to Dooku, Sidious is obviously more terrifying and dangerous.
(Which makes his musings toward the end of the book regarding a dark Yoda all the more interesting.)
Eminence
What I'm not sure of is roughly how much of his OT power Palpatine had acquired by ROTS. I think that's information we need to decide how Yoda's strength in the Force compares to that of Vader and Marek.
Well, canon confirms that Palpatine became a recluse and delegated the responsibilities of running the Empire to his advisors; Sate Pestage, in particular, was Emperor in all but name by the Battle of Hoth. The Dark Empire Sourcebook mentions that Palpatine used the scope of his political authority to gather the greatest works of Force knowledge in the galaxy.
Twenty years of uninterrupted rule with unlimited access to mind-boggling amount of Force related information and equipped with a prodigious intellect?
I mean, it's impossible to give an exact figure, but there's definitely reason to suggest that Palpatine easily doubled his mastery of existing Force techniques. His post-RotS feats are highly impressive related to combat and aggressive Force maneuvers.
The Emperor is clearly on a tier above Vader; despite the "80%" figure from George Lucas, Vader wasn't comfortable attacking Palpatine with Marek at once, demonstrated by TFU. The dark side ending and analysis of TFU also indicates quite clearly that Palpatine is more than capable of annihilating Marek -- it isn't close at all in a practical fight scenario.
Yoda is likely the more dangerous opponent than Vader or Marek due to his small size, agility, and speed. But I don't necessarily agree that his Force powers were considerably superior.
Originally posted by GideonLabyrinth of Evil, Dark Rendezvous, and even Asajj Ventress's newly established Clone Wars profile make it abundantly clear that the Count and his underlings regard Sidious with an almost absurd level of fear and respect. That Dooku does not extend this same level of reverence to Yoda is interesting; to Dooku, Sidious is obviously more terrifying and dangerous.
(Which makes his musings toward the end of the book regarding a dark Yoda all the more interesting.)
I would say fear of the unknown and the unfamiliary had much to do with the fear that Dooku had towards sidious as opposed to Yoda, who trained Dooku from a child.
The quotes towards the end were pretty clear: A dark Yoda would be untouchable by anyone that Dooku had ever heard of. He uses some pretty strong wording, and includes Sidious by name when discussing opponents that wouldn't stand a chance against such a Yoda.
truejedi
I would say fear of the unknown and the unfamiliary had much to do with the fear that Dooku had towards sidious as opposed to Yoda, who trained Dooku from a child.The quotes towards the end were pretty clear: A dark Yoda would be untouchable by anyone that Dooku had ever heard of. He uses some pretty strong wording, and includes Sidious by name when discussing opponents that wouldn't stand a chance against such a Yoda.
?
You can't very well say that Dooku has "fear of the unknown" regarding Sidious and then suggest that Dooku's personal beliefs regarding a dark Yoda v. Sidious are anything resembling accurate.
By the way, it's not like the Count had just met his Master three weeks prior to that book. "Having studied under a merciless Master, Darth Sidious, Dooku now wields the full power of the Force's darker secrets." (his Clone Wars biography)
Seems pretty exhaustive to me.
what impresses me about palpatine is that he is a match for yoda in the force at all, considering that if you factor what you said about sideous and his access to lore, and compare it to yoda, but multiplied by hundreds of years, there is no doubt that yoda should (feats contradict this) be the most powerful force user in history bar one or two people like luke, who is so strong in the force that he can make up for a lack of experience.
i mean, the man had 800+ years and full access to the largest databank of force knowledge in the galaxy... theres really no excuse for why he shouldnt know and be able to perform almost every technique out there.
but to then, with all that knowledge, be stalemated by someone with barely even 10% of your years of experience and teachings... speaks very well for sideous.
Originally posted by Gideon
?You can't very well say that Dooku has "fear of the unknown" regarding Sidious and then suggest that Dooku's personal beliefs regarding a dark Yoda v. Sidious are anything resembling accurate.
By the way, it's not like the Count had just met his Master three weeks prior to that book. "Having studied under a merciless Master, Darth Sidious, Dooku now wields the full power of the Force's darker secrets." (his Clone Wars biography)
Seems pretty exhaustive to me.
he didn't have nearly the contact with Darth Sidious he did with Yoda though. He didn't leave the order till he was almost 60, right? and then the most training he could have had under sidious after the death of Maul was 10 years.
truejedi
he didn't have nearly the contact with Darth Sidious he did with Yoda though.
In terms of length of training, sure. But then you have to factor in that Yoda was training hundreds of other disciples and that Thame Cerulian was Dooku's actual Master.
Meanwhile, it was Sidious and Dooku relatively one-on-one for over a decade.
truejedi
He didn't leave the order till he was almost 60, right? and then the most training he could have had under sidious after the death of Maul was 10 years.
What's your point?
Originally posted by GideonWell, canon confirms that Palpatine became a recluse and delegated the responsibilities of running the Empire to his advisors; Sate Pestage, in particular, was Emperor in all but name by the Battle of Hoth. The Dark Empire Sourcebook mentions that Palpatine used the scope of his political authority to gather the greatest works of Force knowledge in the galaxy.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefingtonI've always wondered fictitious villains intend to do when they achieve their goals. World domination, universal destruction... then what?
Gotta love the similarities between this and the new Star Wars game. The Sith Emperor builds an "empire" and disappears to pursue his mysterious goals.
Originally posted by Lord LucienThis.
I've always wondered fictitious villains intend to do when they achieve their goals. World domination, universal destruction... then what?