Venom vs Cheetah (Minerva) slugfest

Originally posted by galactusischere
What strenght class is Cheetah in?

Near-Wonder Woman's, so that'd be class 100, Alpha class, whatever you want to call it.

And just as importantly, she's in the same toughness class. Trying to suffocate her is about the only thing that a Venom could do that might work, because those punches sure won't.

Originally posted by Q99
Here/are scans from their very first fight. She was around as strong as Wonder Woman even then.

Btw, *this* Cheetah, Barbara Minerva, is purely post-Crisis, those scans were shortly after the reboot. The earlier Cheetahs were different, weaker characters, which may be who you're thinking of, or animated Cheetah, who's biologically enhanced rather than a god-champion and more on that level. Minerva hasn't had a lot of powerups. Mostly just how easy she can transform into Cheetah, and the recent speed boost.

While the others' may need the scans, I certainly don't; bought the issue when it originally came out. *Contextually*, she was about as strong (more or less), as Spiderman on the Old Marvel Scaling; Diana, in those early Perez issues, wasn't demonstrating massive strength, herself, either. Just a few issues before that, she had great difficulty lassoing/stopping a dropped nuclear warhead from a plane -- not rocket propelled, merely dropped, and as she said/thought herself it "nearly ripped my arms off"- thus not even qualifying at that time as Cl100 strength, in terms of old school reference points. That's because Diana, as a character, was still quite a ways off from coming into her greater power. Nearly 25 years later, Diana can fart and missles turn aside. It's all relative to the setting/scaling of the writer at the time.

My comparitive scaling is accurate; Cheetah post-crisis wasn't that strong on the meta-scale; nowadays, she is (though much of her striking power is still due largely to uber-speed and mystical endowment). If you go back and check out the issues around those you are referencing, you'll see I'm right. Unlike some people around here (not meaning you, just *certain* people), I don't make comparatives like that unless I *know* I have read many issues regarding the character in question.

EDIT: However, because I just logged out and back in, I noticed I did make the common mistake of not reading the OP's conditions -- bad me. If Barbara's speed is reduced to Spiderman's, then Venom has a better chance. I still give it to her, marginally. Venom can make some impressive wins, still, as her speed is really the key to many of her victory's. (Of course, if she doesn't have her speed, then she really isn't the "Cheetah", as a character...)

Originally posted by tideoftime
While the others' may need the scans, I certainly don't; bought the issue when it originally came out. *Contextually*, she was about as strong (more or less), as Spiderman on the Old Marvel Scaling; Diana, in those early Perez issues, wasn't demonstrating massive strength, herself, either. Just a few issues before that, she had great difficulty lassoing/stopping a dropped nuclear warhead from a plane -- not rocket propelled, merely dropped, and as she said/thought herself it "nearly ripped my arms off"- thus not even qualifying at that time as Cl100 strength, in terms of old school reference points. That's because Diana, as a character, was still quite a ways off from coming into her greater power. Nearly 25 years later, Diana can fart and missles turn aside. It's all relative to the setting/scaling of the writer at the time.

Hm, that is fair a point I didn't consider.

So I guess a way to say it is, "Cheetah's near-Wonder Woman strength, however much that may be."

It hasn't been overt powerups, just sort of both have been made stronger and from the writing they've basically been retconned to be that strong.

And still, we aren't dealing with 'start of post-Crisis' Cheetah. This is *modern* Cheetah. Class 100, can take full blasts from Black Lightning and Firehawk, tussle with modern Superman and Diana Cheetah. She doesn't need to use speed, if she just trades punches Venom'll be a smear and she'll shrug everything he's got.

Originally posted by Q99
Hm, that is fair a point I didn't consider.

So I guess a way to say it is, "Cheetah's near-Wonder Woman strength, however much that may be."

It hasn't been overt powerups, just sort of both have been made stronger and from the writing they've basically been retconned to be that strong.

Yeah, a lot of characters have been portrayed as a far cry under their Pre-Crisis versions after the reboot. Diana wasn't displaying strength on the level she displays now. Captain Marvel is another good example. For most of the Jerry Ordway PoS ongoing series in the 90's, CM hardly ever displays Superman-level strength/durability/speed save against his brief scuffle with Superman himself.

Originally posted by Q99
Hm, that is fair a point I didn't consider.

So I guess a way to say it is, "Cheetah's near-Wonder Woman strength, however much that may be."

It hasn't been overt powerups, just sort of both have been made stronger and from the writing they've basically been retconned to be that strong.

And still, we aren't dealing with 'start of post-Crisis' Cheetah. This is *modern* Cheetah. Class 100, can take full blasts from Black Lightning and Firehawk, tussle with modern Superman and Diana Cheetah. She doesn't need to use speed, if she just trades punches Venom'll be a smear and she'll shrug everything he's got.

Well, yes, of course; I wasn't saying anything contrary to that. And as far as this scenario's "reduced speed", like I posted above: I still give it to Barbara to win, just without her uberspeed, Venom does have a chance at some wins (not huge, mind you, but I do give Venom some credit as a character...)

No hard feelings -- not "disaggreeing" with you, per se, just clarifying my position. Shake hands? 🙂

Originally posted by Q99
Hm, that is fair a point I didn't consider.

So I guess a way to say it is, "Cheetah's near-Wonder Woman strength, however much that may be."

It hasn't been overt powerups, just sort of both have been made stronger and from the writing they've basically been retconned to be that strong.

And still, we aren't dealing with 'start of post-Crisis' Cheetah. This is *modern* Cheetah. Class 100, can take full blasts from Black Lightning and Firehawk, tussle with modern Superman and Diana Cheetah. She doesn't need to use speed, if she just trades punches Venom'll be a smear and she'll shrug everything he's got.

Originally posted by SamZED
It depends, how well is her telepathy resistance? Also suffocating her should be an option as well, I don't see how's she gonna prevent a dozen tendrils moving at bullet speed from suffocating her. As for her punches turning Venom into a smear, it depends on which Venom. Gargan yeah agreed. Brcok, nope. He can take her punches easilly. The thing is, his durability level is far greater than his strength, plus he has a HF.

Pretty good, like a lot of godly types. At the least, I've never seen her mind controlled, and there are some telepaths in WW's gallery that she's met.

Slice up the tendrils? Hit him flying so hard she's out of reach?

And even if not punching, there's ripping and tearing. That's always good.

She has a healing factor too, btw. That tail's regenerated from nothing a few times, for example.

Originally posted by Q99
Pretty good, like a lot of godly types. At the least, I've never seen her mind controlled, and there are some telepaths in WW's gallery that she's met.

Slice up the tendrils? Hit him flying so hard she's out of reach?

And even if not punching, there's ripping and tearing. That's always good.

She has a healing factor too, btw. That tail's regenerated from nothing a few times, for example.

Ripping and tearing wont cut it, Venom's regrown an arm once in 2 seconds. Besides its kinda hard to ripp a livving goo apart. And there's no way she could cut a few dozen tendrils that move faster than bullets, not with Spider-man's speed.

Is it really telepathy or is it like a biological interface?

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
Is it really telepathy or is it like a biological interface?

Originally posted by SamZED
Has anyone even tried to mind controle her before? Because symbiotes have effected even godly types before. She'd need to have a pretty darn good tp resistance feats.

I think Psycho has.

Doesn't a symbiont taking over someone new also involve leaving the old one, though? So you wouldn't have Venom victorious. You'd have Eddie Brock and Venom-Cheetah.

Ripping and tearing wont cut it, Venom's regrown an arm once in 2 seconds. Besides its kinda hard to ripp a livving goo apart.

And if instead of ripping an arm, she rips a head or heart? Because she will go for the kill.

And there's no way she could cut a few dozen tendrils that move faster than bullets, not with Spider-man's speed.

She can slice through the majority of them (it's not like Cheetah needs to block them, there's cutting after they've grabbed on), but there's also just powering through.

Originally posted by Q99
I think Psycho has.

Doesn't a symbiont taking over someone new also involve leaving the old one, though? So you wouldn't have Venom victorious. You'd have Eddie Brock and Venom-Cheetah.

Originally posted by Q99

And if instead of ripping an arm, she rips a head or heart? Because she will go for the kill.

Originally posted by Q99

She can slice through the majority of them (it's not like Cheetah needs to block them, there's cutting after they've grabbed on), but there's also just powering through.