Kel'Thuzad vs Raziel

VS

All powers and abilities, Raziel is allowed Glyphs and all powers seen in his games. The souls of the long dead remnants in this battle will wander the spectoral realm to be eaten by Raziel if his physical form is destroyed.

Kelthuzad is allowed the same.

Sources of canon outside of the games allowed, although I may bar certain feats if Kelthuzad has some sort of uberest power 😉

The battlefield is a huge icy plain infinite in all directions with the bodies of the dead covering it like a carpet, remnants of an ancient civil battle fought by human alliances long past.

Putting the vote in for Raziel, though pepole from Kelthuzads world are apparently stronger then i first thought.

Kel'Thuzad know limited time freeze, I want to remember. Might want to bar that for starter.

if its limited time freeze then its not a problem.

Time freeze is good but does he have the skills to do something to kill Raz in that freeze?

From basic lore I would imagine he has a plethora of forst spells, ice blasts and shadow attacks. Rememer the arena is smothered in bodies, hes a high level necromancer so he could summon some army to face Raziel. Not sure how many he can summon at once.

Kel'Thuzad has the disntegrate ability. The same type that Tyri used during Ghostland. Finger of Death, Energy Drain, Ice Storm, Phase Shift and instant Teleport are probably his most significant moves in this battle. All taken from the manual of monsters.

Ive never trusted the RPG books, their based on gameplay outside the video games and a lot of the powers seem to be based on gameplay and classes within it. Thats where a lot of the "battle tactics" come from concerning the Titans.

Few guys are taking on Kel'Thuzad in a straight up fight.

Even back in the day he was a member of the Council of Six.

I wouldnt really call this "straight up"

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ive never trusted the RPG books, their based on gameplay outside the video games and a lot of the powers seem to be based on gameplay and classes within it. Thats where a lot of the "battle tactics" come from concerning the Titans.

The RPG books list abilities and that give a sample of his power. I remember a time back however, when we listed sources according to relevance. You listed gameplay as most important when trying to figure out the power of a character.

But my point is that Kel'Thuzad can create a powerful blizzard, limiting Raziel's movement and sight. Freezing time, even only briefly, will also grant him an advantage given how he has Finger of Death and Disintegrate. Should Raziel near, he could teleport or phase shift into safety and then return to place and blast Raziel away. Rince and repeat.

Originally posted by Rapidash
The RPG books list abilities and that give a sample of his power. I remember a time back however, when we listed sources according to relevance. You listed gameplay as most important when trying to figure out the power of a character.

But my point is that Kel'Thuzad can create a powerful blizzard, limiting Raziel's movement and sight. Freezing time, even only briefly, will also grant him an advantage given how he has Finger of Death and Disintegrate. Should Raziel near, he could teleport or phase shift into safety and then return to place and blast Raziel away. Rince and repeat.

I dont remember doing that, my philosophy is that a developers official statement is the highest form of relevence. Gameplay mechanics can never be considered a good gauge. For example the RPG books are like World of Warcraft, the powers of the characters within them reflect the possibilities of that RP, it takes into account balance and attempts to give a easy overlook of how a player can assess the sitation. Fact of the matter is, the powers and abilities shown in WoW especially by the higher characters (malygos or Kiljaeden shade) are downplayed massively for gameplay. Some specific abilities may not even be used by Malygos or Kiljaeden. Main point being, rules of the game could determine powers given to the character, in lore kelthuzad may not use the powers shown in WoW or RP books.

Although Raziel can go ethereal, being made untouchable by the physical effects (blizzard and finger of death) and to escape time powers or just to gain on Kelthuzad without being assaulted he could "spectral" shift into and out of the spectral realm. In a way an effective teleport at least to Kelthuzard.

Another ability Kel'Thuzad has, is anchor, which restrict the target from shifting state. The spectral realm would certainly be out of reach.

depends on what is meant by "state" and what its been used on in warcraft.

It anchor you to your current dimension. In Warcraft it means you can not go ethereal, enter the Emerald Dream, go through portals and things like that.

hm not sure it would cover the spirit world. Technically thats like saying if he put anchor on one of his soldiers they cannot die as their state cannot become spiritual. "spectral" is not a state that Raziel goes into, its just like walking between dimensions from material to spirit.

What are the cast speeds of this power and the one that has limited time manip? are they specified?

It does not stop the soul, only the body. If Raziel can astral project, anchor will only do so much as restrain his body. But what you brought up about walking between dimensions (Material to spiritual), that is exactly what anchor prevent. Can be applied to him, or others.

Like most of his spells, this is quickened. Little to no casting time. It has never been applied in a canon interaction, so it's hard to guess just how potent it actually is. We only have the manual of monsters. Kel'Thuzad has little to no combat showing in canon.

Raziel becomes spectral/spirit to join the spectral realm, he is not going to there as a physical entity.

Quickened as in, he can cast more spells per turn using RPG rules? I meant is there an actual feat or exact amount of time he takes to cast? does he gesture/think etc? because Raziel can spectral shift almost instantly.

Also considering Kelthuzard could not really hold Raziel indefinatly with his powers, or defeat Raziel he would have to kill him eventualy, sending him to the spectral realm.

So we know what powers the manuel gives him (taking a neutral stance and ignoring my doubts on the RPG's ability selection for characters) but we dont know the speed in a practical situation.

Kel'Thuzad says: Come, Helcular, let me give you a small taste...
Kel'Thuzad utters some unintelligible words.
The critter is brought back to life
Kel'Thuzad says: Now do you see, Helcular? Do you doubt the power? I control life!
Kel'Thuzad says: And death...
The critter dies again
Kel'Thuzad says: I'm still working out some minor details...

Now with that funny quote out of the way, I think that Kel'Thuzad would win this. This under the assumption that Raziel does not have teleport, because if he did he would win this handily.

phase shifting would be the same as teleport as time at least to Raziels perception is frozen in the material world, when he comes out of spectral realm and faces Kelthuzard in the physical, kelth will be in the exact same position, posture and in the middle of the exact same spell he was about to cast before Raziel disapeared into spectral.