Sun Dipped Superman vs Void Sentry

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
If Entropy blasts couldn't affect his molecules and Brainiac 13 with Imperiex energies Sentry wouldn't be able to.

Were these attacks speciffically sated to be atempts at molecular or subatomic matter manipulation that failed? Or were they just general purpose energy blasts coming at him from the outside that he happened to tank?

If it worked on MM who is a god of matter manipulation, why wouldn't it work on SM who has no specific defense to it in his onedimensional (for the purposes of this fight) powerset or history of feats? All SM has is his general durability. He'll die ugly just the same.

Superman dies a horrible death via matter manipulation 10/10

Originally posted by 753
Were these attacks speciffically sated to be atempts at molecular or subatomic matter manipulation that failed? Or were they just general purpose energy blasts coming at him from the outside that he happened to tank?

If it worked on MM who is a god of matter manipulation, why wouldn't it work on SM who has no specific defense to it in his onedimensional (for the purposes of this fight) powerset or history of feats? All SM has is his general durability. He'll die ugly just the same.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
So you think the way you do, biased and wrong. So please say, what attack has hurt sundipped Superman?

That's neither here nor there. Your logic states since he wasn't beaten in the arc nothing can hurt him. That's just ignorant.

Originally posted by 753
Were these attacks speciffically sated to be atempts at molecular or subatomic matter manipulation that failed? Or were they just general purpose energy blasts coming at him from the outside that he happened to tank?

If it worked on MM who is a god of matter manipulation, why wouldn't it work on SM who has no specific defense to it in his onedimensional (for the purposes of this fight) powerset or history of feats? All SM has is his general durability. He'll die ugly just the same.

Matter manipulation is pretty much like magic. One day Sentry can matter manip MM the next he can't, for one obscure reason or another. And I doubt he matter manips Thor, I'm almost certain it doesn't happen, regardless of whether he wins or not.

I think regular Supes already has control over his own molecules, so matter manipulating him isn't as simple as an A B C equation. For instance he can vibrate his molecules to varied frequencies, matching his body's frequency to those of parallel universes.

Again given the inconsistency of matter manipulation it's difficult to say how he'd affect sundipped Supes in OWAW who seemed to have evolved into a more powerful being from what was shown.

We'll just have to wait for more showings from Sentry.

Originally posted by Allankles
Matter manipulation is pretty much like magic. One day Sentry can matter manip MM the next he can't, for one obscure reason or another. And I doubt he matter manips Thor, I'm almost certain it doesn't happen, regardless of whether he wins or not.

I think regular Supes already has control over his own molecules, so matter manipulating him isn't as simple as an A B C equation.

Again given the inconsistency of matter manipulation it's difficult to say how he'd affect sundipped Supes in OWAW who seemed to have evolved into a more powerful being from what was shown.

We'll just have to wait for more showings from Sentry.

We don't have to see any more showings to know he can do what he did. I think it's obvious they won't have him doing this every time he shows up because it would kill the plot.

That could apply to so many characters. Superman isn't going to be using T-vo either because it's broken.

The point is matter manipulation is similar to magic, he can matter manip MM but I bet someone else with maybe even less control over that kind of ability resists him.

And you know what, it will be valid because there's no rule defining what constitutes great defense against Matter manip as long as you have control over your own molecules.

Again it almost sounds like magic, except at least with magic power levels make sense. It's like this, what would stop a guy with control over his own molecules from resisting a matter manipulator?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Because like most exotic abilities they don't lose the ability they just don't use them. We see Thor ignore most of his other abilities against the Hulk yet we know he can still replicate them.

We don't have to see any more showings to know he can do what he did. I think it's obvious they won't have him doing this every time he shows up because it would kill the plot.

Originally posted by Allankles
That could apply to so many characters. Superman isn't going to be using T-vo either because it's broken.

The point is matter manipulation is similar to magic, he can matter manip MM but I bet someone else with maybe even less control over that kind of ability resists him.

And you know what, it will be valid because there's no rule defining what constitutes great defense against Matter manip as long as you have control over your own molecules.

Again it almost sounds like magic, except at least with magic power levels make sense. It's like this, what would stop a guy with control over his own molecules from resisting a matter manipulator?

I didn't say it's magic. And also any time someone just matter manips a matter manipulator you pretty much know the writer was being one sided. It is broken.

Originally posted by Allankles
I didn't say it's magic. And also any time someone just matter manips a matter manipulator you pretty much know the writer was being one sided. It is broken.

I know the Sentry is powerful, no doubt about that, but if matter manipulation is his trump card then he needs more than one showing with it, because matter manipulation is not consistent for a variety of reasons.

One of those reasons is manipulating the matter of an opponent with control over his own molecules, we're talking psionic control over molecules, no amount of molecular manipulation should break that psionic control unless you're talking magic or reality manipulation which can bypass any physical forces.

Originally posted by Allankles
I know the Sentry is powerful, no doubt about that, but if matter manipulation is his trump card then he needs more than one showing with it, because matter manipulation is not consistent for a variety of reasons.

One of those reasons is manipulating the matter of an opponent with control over his own molecules, we're talking psionic control over molecules, no amount of molecular manipulation should break that psionic control unless you're talking magic or reality manipulation which can bypass any physical forces.

Ok cool. Then a character would need resistence to reality manipulation as well, regular Supes has done that too. Sometimes people forget the wide array of feats Supes has.

Originally posted by Allankles
Ok cool. Then a character would need resistence to reality manipulation as well, regular Supes has done that too. Sometimes people forget the wide array of feats Supes has.

What's a cc? And remember this is sundipped Supes.

Originally posted by Allankles
What's a cc? And remember this is sundipped Supes.

Now with the limited time we had of Superman being sundipped do you really think without proof he can resist being warped to a greater degree?

As far as MM is concerned, yeah I think Sundipped Supes can resist him. I doubt the writer had the CCs in mind as the end-all-be-all of reality manipulation when he wrought up the Sentry/MM fight.

It's a tremendous feat on its own, but I think we need to see more, just so that we don't jump to quick conclusion. Rulk also had his 15 minutes and I remember how you were a big fan, before turning around and becoming a Thor fan later.

I'm not going to criticize anyone for glory hunting, but it's wise to wait.

sigh......... now supe has matter manipulation control over his own molecules?

where was it when he is being transported/teleported to the JLa tower?

if he has so much controlover his body or is highly resistant to matter manipulation it should be near impossible to break him down to energy and teleported.. it should also be impossible for the future magician guy to turn him into a puppet.... it should also be near impossible for Mxy to mess with him as well(yeah im reaching with mxy) but then Superman shouldnt have bn turned into a teen during the sins of youth storyline by which boy and alien science)

Superman shouldnt have ever bn effected by temporal or reality disruption in any of his stories... but we have seen Superman costume and personalities change from various superman of other timelines/realitieswinkiss

didnt DS also use his OB to teleport superman away which again is altering changing superman on a molecular lvl?

I don't see what teleporting has to do with Matter Manipulation, since teleportation has to do with the manipulation of space. If you can bend space or have a device to bend the space occupied by whatever kind of matter, that is clearly seperate from direct manipulation of said matter.

Telportation is merely a kind of manipulation of the space matter distorts.

Originally posted by Allankles
Matter manipulation is pretty much like magic. One day Sentry can matter manip MM the next he can't, for one obscure reason or another. And I doubt he matter manips Thor, I'm almost certain it doesn't happen, regardless of whether he wins or not.

I think regular Supes already has control over his own molecules, so matter manipulating him isn't as simple as an A B C equation. For instance he can vibrate his molecules to varied frequencies, matching his body's frequency to those of parallel universes.

Again given the inconsistency of matter manipulation it's difficult to say how he'd affect sundipped Supes in OWAW who seemed to have evolved into a more powerful being from what was shown.

We'll just have to wait for more showings from Sentry.

Originally posted by Allankles
I know the Sentry is powerful, no doubt about that, but if matter manipulation is his trump card then he needs more than one showing with it, because matter manipulation is not consistent for a variety of reasons.

One of those reasons is manipulating the matter of an opponent with control over his own molecules, we're talking psionic control over molecules, no amount of molecular manipulation should break that psionic control unless you're talking magic or reality manipulation which can bypass any physical forces.

Transmutation is seldom used because the power is broken - I agree that this is true of a lot of powers and characters who never do what they can because it would kill the plot and that some powers are once in a lifetime things. But in sentry's case, I'm convinced he uses that power all the time, it's not just that one showing. He just makes it look like he has the powers of SM because he is mentally limited. Recently, he began outgrowing such limitations and is becoming more powerfull. Tearing ares in half was just exactly that, matter manipulation/reality warping.

I don't think matter control is so all over the place either. Sure it has consitancy issues, but I don't think they are that much greater than other superpowers.

People who have psionic or any other kind control over matter, be it just their own bodies or matter in general, may try to resist outside atempts of manipulation. But since no character below omnipotence has absolute control over anything and psionic control over one's own mass does not, at all, entail absolute power over it, they will still be manipulated by powers greater than their own, regardless of whether their powers are psionic or not. Therefore, power levels and degrees of control among manipulators determine the outcome of an attack and matter control is not entirely unpredictable (even if it does vary somewhat). Sentry unequivocally did it to MM and the story makes it clear that he has more raw power and less fine control than him. In this particular case, raw power took the best over fine control. Such an outcome may vary from one fight to another, but it's obvious they're both high end manipulators and SM is not.

SM's vibration thing is just a smart aplication of superspeed, not actual matter manipulation. I just think it's unrealistic to expect he can resist what MM couldn't.