Originally posted by the ninjak
Drax....He is a better fighter if Logan is focused and will laugh him off if Logan resorted to Berserker Rage.
Srankmissing I'm aware that Nova would beat him if he used his full arsenal but fighting Nova with his full speed in H2H combat is Beastly.
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Drax has one skill feet. He beat a random alien fodder with one appearance, who was a master of six disciplines of a single martial art style. Thats it. Other than that he has killed some fodder. Awesome! Now he's Batman! Seriously, get your heads out of your asses, the suggestion that he is anywhere near the same level as Wolverine is absurd. Wolverine is one of the best fighters in Marvel, Drax is not.
Clearly you have no concept of what Wolverine's Berserker Rage is. Wolverine doesn't hate his Berserker Rage and fight it with every waking moment with every fiber of his being because it makes him sloppy and weak, he strives to remain in control because it makes him too good. Berserker Wolverine is the perfect killing machine, created perfect by nature and improved upon by science. He thinks much faster, he moves much faster, he's much stronger, and he is more skilled. He is the best there is at what he does.
Berserker Wolverine is what fighters and strive for when they tireless train for years and years for the right combat responses to become second nature to them, an unconscious reaction floating around in the subconscious, only its not second nature to Wolverine, its first nature. Every fiber of Wolverine's being is screaming at him to fight and kill at every second of every day. Foundamentally is the same as Sabretooth except Logan spends his every waking hour trying to control his instincts, where as Creed just allows them to do their business. Wolverine hasn't traveled the world to learn every martial art disciple to become a better fighter - he never needed too he was a great fighter by design - he's done it to gain some measure of control and self discipline, so he can keep the beast caged. And thats how he fights people the majority of the time, using his immense will power to hold of the beast, while he ignores everyone of his instincts and fights with some measure of restraint. Berserker Wolverine is completely uncaged, fulling giving into the instincts Wolverine ignores normally, and so far as killing is involved his instincts are always right.
The Berserker Rage is weeks of combat compressed into minutes. It is the equivalent of a gymnast preforming a gold medal routine while simultaneously beating two super computers at chess. It is an unstopable force of nature created only to kill and its the best there is at what it does. The only down side to the Berserker Rage is that he will kill indiscriminately. Drax couldn't beat normal Wolverine and he stands NO CHANCE IN HELL against a full Berserker Rage.
I hear you.
Originally posted by the ninjak
GotG members are hard to level due to so many characters in every issue and great writing. But to be Destroyer level means cosmically that you are pretty much unequalled in H2H skills.
It's the teams greatest downfall too much good story...not enough killin!
Most of the members are melee fighters and shooters!
Yet we see no specifics in skillsets.
Would you say Wolvey would kill Gamora and the others as well?
Because I reckon Drax is probably the deadliest amongst them.
Just not enough screen time. It's a close fight...it's just it appears that Drax's power is to put those blades where they count. And has the biology to back it.
Love that rant! First of all, great description of Wolvie beserker rage. I knew that it was only a matter of time before someone brought out the ol "olympic gymnist supercomputer chess" schtick. You Wolvie fans have that thing memorized like the cub scout pledge!
At any rate, Drax is like that at all times. And his best feat isn't beating the hell out of Impact, his best feat is ripping Thanos's beating heart out of his chest. A feat that ol' Logan can never hope to replicate. Ever. (Double negative)
It's great that Wolvie was enhanced by human science to be the perfect killing machine. Drax was enhanced by Mentor and Kronos to be the perfect killing machine. A killing machine designed to kill the ultimate killer. His latest incarnation is designed for cqb, spec op's and land warfare. He doesn't tire, doesn't need to eat or sleep, has ridiculous strength and durability, has a brilliant tactical mind and is sleeker, quicker and smarter then his previous incarnations. Oh and he still has some cosmic power, awareness and at least class 75 strength on top of being a h2h master on par with Gamora. Logan is outclassed period.
Originally posted by the ninjakAll true. But for the purposes of this battle, just because wolvie has a more well known rogues gallery due to him being on mainstream marvel earth, people shouldn't discount Drax's feats.
I hear you.It's the teams greatest downfall too much good story...not enough killin!
Most of the members are melee fighters and shooters!
Yet we see no specifics in skillsets.
Would you say Wolvey would kill Gamora and the others as well?
Because I reckon Drax is probably the deadliest amongst them.
Just not enoug[hscreen time. It's a close fight...
it's just it appears that Drax's power is to put those blades where they count. And has the biology to back it.
And that's all that matters!
Originally posted by the ninjak
I hear you.It's the teams greatest downfall too much good story...not enough killin!
Most of the members are melee fighters and shooters!
Yet we see no specifics in skillsets.
Would you say Wolvey would kill Gamora and the others as well?
Because I reckon Drax is probably the deadliest amongst them.
Just not enough screen time. It's a close fight...it's just it appears that Drax's power is to put those blades where they count. And has the biology to back it.
Yeah, its the same problem Legion and JSA have, the active roster is to large to give any significant panel time to showcase their abilities. Story and character development can still be ample, but clearly defining a character's power / skill set falls to the way side.
Wolverine has already beaten Gamora like 3-4 times (although he had help and a few of them are more than possibly the same fight from different perspectives). Also, Gamora doesn't give me a raging cosmic boner so I don't place her nearly as high as other people do. Gamora is allegedly uber skilled because she stalemate Thanos in a spar, and Thanos is alegedly uber skilled because he trained Gamora. That seems like pretty circular logic to me. To me, and this is just my opinion, if a character is truly uber skilled they will have pushed the limits of what they show physically be able to and proven them selves against someone or something who is on paper far superior. This is what Batman does, its what Captain America does, its what Iron Fist does, its what Elekctra does, its what MAs do; I'm not convinced Gamora has ever done it. Have you ever seen Gamora do something outside her power set? Has she ever held her own against someone far superior because of her combat skill (other than a spar with Thanos, which is hardly an accurate depiction of how a real fight would go between them)? I don't think she has. Now this is more than partially do the the fact that she is VASTLY superhuman to begin with, but I still believe if she was truly an uber skilled MA she would be operating above her power grade like all other MAs, and that is something she hasn't done, and least not consistently. Plus... Quasar held her against her in sword play briefly. Lame.
People seem to be of the opinion that operating in space somehow gives you an automatic edge over someone because they live on earth, which is absurd. In terms of power the GoG are closer in scale to the Starjammers or the Imperial Guard (minus Gladiator), than they are the GL corpse, and outside Gladiator Wolverine has beaten most of the Imperial Guardsmen himself. Honestly, I think Wolverine has a fair shot against everyone on the GoG who's names aren't Adam Warlock, Moondragon or Quasar (or Phyla-Vell... or what ever she is calling her self right now). I don't think being in space somehow makes Rocket Raccoon the most powerful being in existence or made Corsair cosmic entity.
Drax is the type of character Wolverine was designed to beat, a melee bruiser without a healing factor or the durability to turn his claws. Wolverine is faster and more skilled, so he is going to get first blood, and his healing factor will more than compensate for an damage Drax does near instantaneously, which is a luxury Drax doesn't. Every thing Wolverine does to Drax will build on what he has done before, where as Wolverine will be operating at 100% efficiency much longer. Mean the longer the fight goes the more it tips in Wolverine's favour (and it is already in his favour at the beginning).
Wolverine has the potential to end, or drastically alter the outcome of the fight at any moment in a single well placed blow, Drax does not. A severed artery, limb, ligament, spinal column, a pictured organ, all things that would end the fight instantly in Wolverine's favour and some of these don't even require more than a incision of about an inch. In order of Drax to win this fight he would need land dozens and dozens of unanswered blows, which is absurd.
Cant say I read through this whole thing but I'll have to go with logan here, he can oneshot and is a lot tougher.
Drax is good, but going through one billion giant insects is nothing. Wolverine went through an ocean of limbo demons while he had a sword - or maybe it was claw or something - stuck into his back and through his thorax a couple of months ago. The number of demons in the picture was surreal, ven more so than the annihilation swarms, nobody goes through fodder like him.
Originally posted by dmills
Love that rant! First of all, great description of Wolvie beserker rage. I knew that it was only a matter of time before someone brought out the ol "olympic gymnist supercomputer chess" schtick. You Wolvie fans have that thing memorized like the cub scout pledge!At any rate, Drax is like that at all times. And his best feat isn't beating the hell out of Impact, his best feat is ripping Thanos's beating heart out of his chest. A feat that ol' Logan can never hope to replicate. Ever. (Double negative)
It's great that Wolvie was enhanced by human science to be the perfect killing machine. Drax was enhanced by Mentor and Kronos to be the perfect killing machine. A killing machine designed to kill the ultimate killer. His latest incarnation is designed for cqb, spec op's and land warfare. He doesn't tire, doesn't need to eat or sleep, has ridiculous strength and durability, has a brilliant tactical mind and is sleeker, quicker and smarter then his previous incarnations. Oh and he still has some cosmic power, awareness and at least class 75 strength on top of being a h2h master on par with Gamora. Logan is outclassed period.
Drax beating Thanos has no bareing on any fight other than Drax vs. Thanos. Drax was created to kill Thanos. He is waking Deus Ex Machina device as far as Thanos is concerned. You might as well being arging that Kryptonite can beat Wolverine because it so effective against Superman.
I'm sorry to say that your oppinion of what Drax should be able to do isn't nearly as important as what he has been shown to do, and he hasn't shown himself to be capable of defeating Wolverine. Drax has no speed feats, certainly none that would suggest he is at or above Wolverine's level. He has no skill feats, once again, certainly none that place him at or above Wolverine's level.
Since he reincarnation he hasn't done anything that places him above Wolverine in the ways you are suggesting. My opinion of this fight is tempered by facts and hard concrete evidence of the things Wolverine has actually done. I know Wolverine is faster and more skilled than Drax because he has far better and more numerous speed and skill feats. You think Drax is faster and more skilled because he lives in space. Do you see why one of those opinions might hold more weight than the other? In order for Drax to be faster and more skilled than Wolverine he needs to prove it, you can't give him the benefit of the doubt because "ZOMG hes a Destroyer from space and theres cosmic stuff there" and just assume that he is.
I like Drax. He is like Kratos combined with Riddick (read: Wolverine), but what a character does is more important than their repuation or any arbitrary titles they may have. Drax hasn't done anything that would give him the majority against Wolverine, and I'm not giving him the benifit of the doubt because he lives in space.
Originally posted by 753
Cant say i read through this whole thin but I'll have to go with logan here, he can oneshot and is a lot tougher.Drax is good, but going through one billion giant insects is nothing. Wolverine went through an ocean of limbo demons with a sword - or maybe it was claw or something - sticking through his thorax from his back a couple of months ago. The number of demons in the picture was surreal, nobody goes through fodder like him.
He also went through an extrademinsonal once portal and killed some much fodder that he completely blocked the entrance to the stargate with their bodies.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yeah, its the same problem Legion and JSA have, the active roster is to large to give any significant panel time to showcase their abilities. Story and character development can still be ample, but clearly defining a character's power / skill set falls to the way side.Wolverine has already beaten Gamora like 3-4 times (although he had help and a few of them are more than possibly the same fight from different perspectives). Also, Gamora doesn't give me a raging cosmic boner so I don't place her nearly as high as other people do. Gamora is allegedly uber skilled because she stalemate Thanos in a spar, and Thanos is alegedly uber skilled because he trained Gamora. That seems like pretty circular logic to me. To me, and this is just my opinion, if a character is truly uber skilled they will have pushed the limits of what they show physically be able to and proven them selves against someone or something who is on paper far superior. This is what Batman does, its what Captain America does, its what Iron Fist does, its what Elekctra does, its what MAs do; I'm not convinced Gamora has ever done it. Have you ever seen Gamora do something outside her power set? Has she ever held her own against someone far superior because of her combat skill (other than a spar with Thanos, which is hardly an accurate depiction of how a real fight would go between them)? I don't think she has. Now this is more than partially do the the fact that she is VASTLY superhuman to begin with, but I still believe if she was truly an uber skilled MA she would be operating above her power grade like all other MAs, and that is something she hasn't done, and least not consistently. Plus... Quasar held her against her in sword play briefly. Lame.
People seem to be of the opinion that operating in space somehow gives you an automatic edge over someone because they live on earth, which is absurd. In terms of power the GoG are closer in scale to the Starjammers or the Imperial Guard (minus Gladiator), than they are the GL corpse, and outside Gladiator Wolverine has beaten most of the Imperial Guardsmen himself. Honestly, I think Wolverine has a fair shot against everyone on the GoG who's names aren't Adam Warlock, Moondragon or Quasar (or Phyla-Vell... or what ever she is calling her self right now). I don't think being in space somehow makes Rocket Raccoon the most powerful being in existence or made Corsair cosmic entity.
Drax is the type of character Wolverine was designed to beat, a melee bruiser without a healing factor or the durability to turn his claws. Wolverine is faster and more skilled, so he is going to get first blood, and his healing factor will more than compensate for an damage Drax does near instantaneously, which is a luxury Drax doesn't. Every thing Wolverine does to Drax will build on what he has done before, where as Wolverine will be operating at 100% efficiency much longer. Mean the longer the fight goes the more it tips in Wolverine's favour (and it is already in his favour at the beginning).
Wolverine has the potential to end, or drastically alter the outcome of the fight at any moment in a single well placed blow, Drax does not. A severed artery, limb, ligament, spinal column, a pictured organ, all things that would end the fight instantly in Wolverine's favour and some of these don't even require more than a incision of about an inch. In order of Drax to win this fight he would need land dozens and dozens of unanswered blows, which is absurd.
Also I'm interested in hearing about these 3 or 4 wins Wolverine has against Gamora, cause from what I know of her the only time he ever put her down was a cheap shot to the gut while she was destracted...
Originally posted by darthgoober
In regards to Gamora fighting outside her class due to her skills, she's taken on Maxam(even before her upgrade), beaten a mind controled Terrax, stood toe to toe with Ronan while he had his Universal Weapon maxed out to levels he never used against the likes of Thor and Surfer.Also I'm interested in hearing about these 3 or 4 wins Wolverine has against Gamora, cause from what I know of her the only time he ever put her down was a cheap shot to the gut while she was destracted...
None of those things are really that far outside her class though (with the exception of Maxam if that was before upgrades, but that guy is a mook anyway), she is already pretty high on the wrung physically.
They all happened during the Infitity Guantlets/Crusades/Whatever, events. There is the one you are talking about, and then later there is two or three examples spread out across multiple tie-ins of Wolverine and Heather throwing down with Gamora that are likely the same exchange from multiple perspectives.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
None of those things are really that far outside her class though (with the exception of Maxam if that was before upgrades, but that guy is a mook anyway), she is already pretty high on the wrung physically.They all happened during the Infitity Guantlets/Crusades/Whatever, events. There is the one you are talking about, and then later there is two or three examples spread out across multiple tie-ins of Wolverine and Heather throwing down with Gamora that are likely the same exchange from multiple perspectives.
Then the instance you're refering to happened in the Infinity War and you're remembering wrong if you're actually thinking of it as a "win" for him. He tackled her from behind and then he and Heather each held one arm while Strong Guy ran up and KO'd her. If you have a tie in I haven't seen that shows more though I'd honestly love to see it as the battle between the Infinity Watch and Earth's heroes is one of my favorites...
Originally posted by darthgoober
Those aren't outside her class? Again Ronan maxed out his Universal Weapon...Then the instance you're refering to happened in the Infinity War and you're remembering wrong if you're actually thinking of it as a "win" for him. He tackled her from behind and then he and Heather each held one arm while Strong Guy ran up and KO'd her. If you have a tie in I haven't seen that shows more though I'd honestly love to see it as the battle between the Infinity Watch and Earth's heroes is one of my favorites...
Yeah but wasn't Ronan mostly meleeing her? I don't really remember him using the abilities of Universal Weapon very effectively in that fight. Ronan himself is only about class 75-80 or there abouts in his armor, so Gamora hanging with him in a slugfest is right in the parameters of her attributes. As to why Ronan didn't just selectively disable the gravity around Gamora and finish her off while she was floating helplessly? I don't know? Maybe Thor taught him to use his abilities in the least effective way possible? /shrug
There is about three or four of those little exchanges spread out over Infinity War, not sure about the issues though. I just clearly remember seeing it slightly different in a few panels in several different books across that event.