Gouki versus Shadaloo
Gouki N-vades Shadaloo island, can he survive?
1. Bison and Balrog
(no rest)
2. Sagat and 20 Shadaloo soldiers.
3. Vega SFII/IV body
4. 25 of the 26 Seths
5. Vega, base form SFA
(no rest)
6. Seth No.15 and Juri
7. Shin Vega
Will Gouki put an end 2 the world's most dangerous and ruthless organization, U D-side.
Originally posted by No End N SiteIt took Sagat, Ryu, Ken, Sakura, Chun Li, and Guile I think (Might be wrong).
Good luck Akuma, try not to mind raped.He lost, due to PIS and CIS and even still, it took the combined efforts of most of the cast.
This is early SF, they have all gotten stronger.
Who has Bison mind-raped?
Originally posted by NemeBro
It took Sagat, Ryu, Ken, Sakura, Chun Li, Guile, Charlie, Cammy, 13 other dolls and Rose (who is like one of the strongest SF characters, well above most of the cast)
Almost fixed, don't forget that blast that caused that big ass mushroom cloud. He tanked that too, and then went to kill Rose. Not to mention if he wasn't playin' around in his ass, he coulda just vaped everyone and had a nice day.
Originally posted by NemeBro
This is early SF, they have all gotten stronger.
Who has Bison mind-raped?
Yup, they did get stronger and the SFII Bison 'still' fought: Ryu, Ken, Chun Li, Cammy and Guile. They were barley able to overwhelm the weakest version of Bison ever. Shin Bison is far beyond the cast, even their future versions.
Who has Bison mind rapped? The 13 dolls, to a point where they would die without'im. Ryu, Ken, Cammy and possibly more.
Gouki's shown incredible resistance to Psycho power before, as has Ryu's own Satsui No Hadou, Ryu, while getting transformed into Psycho ryu, shrugged off the effect when it awakened the Sastui No Hadou... No reason to think that Gouki's, which is always active, and stronger, and he is far more exterienced with it, wont have a similar neutralising effect.
The Mind-rape thing requires a tone of prep time, especially in the case of the dolls & cammy, and the violent ken & Psycho Ryu where simply made more murderous and evil, Bison had very limited control, and even then it still required prep, AND him defeating them first.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Gouki's shown incredible resistance to Psycho power before, as has Ryu's own Satsui No Hadou, Ryu, while getting transformed into Psycho ryu, shrugged off the effect when it awakened the Sastui No Hadou... No reason to think that Gouki's, which is always active, and stronger, and he is far more exterienced with it, wont have a similar neutralising effect.The Mind-rape thing requires a tone of prep time, especially in the case of the dolls & cammy, and the violent ken & Psycho Ryu where simply made more murderous and evil, Bison had very limited control, and even then it still required prep, AND him defeating them first.
As I remember the events, the only reason why Ryu was saved was PIS and Sagat. If Sagat wasn't there to coach Ryu out of it, he woulda been a Bison pawn. I also remember Bison sayin' that the Satsui No Hadou and Psycho Powers were similar to one another and that's why it was easy for Bison to manipulate him. I just don't see how Akuma can defend against psychic powers without any of his own. The official SSFIV site even states that Hypnosis is Bison's greatest skill. Didn't Akuma just lose to Mewtwo because he had no Psychic defenses?
I think the only reason why prep was needed wit the dolls was cuz Bison did some pretty extreme shit to them. He did more than just control them, he wiped away their memories, gave them Psycho Power, and removed their minds. I didn't see any prep wit Ryu Ken or Cammy. I just saw Bison beat'em up and hold out his hand and brain wash'em.
The Hyponosis Bison uses is friggin LEGUES below Mewtwo, and has no quantifiable feats to support it... You of all people should know that. Plus, the Satsui No Hadou is in itself a mindrape, with Gouki being the only one to date being able to control it at will.
Cammy was brainwashed like the Dolls, hell she was the Doll Leader... And Ryu & Ken Still neaded to be weakened first. Something Bison aint going to be able to pull off against Gouki... Yes, they are kindred powers, maybe thats why Ryu actually was able to break free?
Sagat had to beat the snot out of Ryu to do it.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
The Hyponosis Bison uses is friggin LEGUES below Mewtwo, and has no quantifiable feats to support it... You of all people should know that. Plus, the Satsui No Hadou is in itself a mindrape, with Gouki being the only one to date being able to control it at will.Cammy was brainwashed like the Dolls, hell she was the Doll Leader... And Ryu & Ken Still neaded to be weakened first. Something Bison aint going to be able to pull off against Gouki... Yes, they are kindred powers, maybe thats why Ryu actually was able to break free?
Sagat had to beat the snot out of Ryu to do it.
I've never seen Bison's psychic powers fail witout outside help. Bison's power has been shown to change the whether dramatically, creatin' hurricane like storms wit skulls in the sky. Greater psychic powers than Rose and Rose's powers are so great that she can predict the future, read minds, cleanse them, and create illusions on significant scales. Not to mention that his power is great enough to vaporize cities and he has all the power in the world to use. Ryu is capable of controlin' the Dark Hadou as well, he just didn't want too.
I don't think he needed to weaken Ryu and Ken to brainwash'em. I think he just kicked their ass 1st, cuz he wanted to. He is FAR more powerful than them. Don't get me wrong, Akuma is very strong, but at the end of the day, he is just a fighter. Akuma is like Ryu multiplied by a large number. Bison can fly out to space in moments. He can fly faster than a fighter jet. He can teleport. Survive A-Bomb sized explosions and he is immortal. Bison will fly outta the atmosphere and vaporize him.
A punch from Akuma is far greater than the atomic weapons that hit Bison.
Yeah I said it.
Those atom bombs could not have outright destroyed/sunk the island like Gouki's fist did.
Why assume he can just auto mindrape when he has always had to defeat them first? Unhealthy assumption, and in terms of personal combat, Gouki is far above Bison. So he is a "fighter," Goku is only a "fighter," yet he is infinitely Bison's better. Flying as fast or faster than an f-22 means he can fly at speeds of mach 2 or more, which is impressive, but there are bullets that fast or faster, which even Ryu can effortlessly dodge.
When did he fly to space by the way?
Originally posted by NemeBro
A punch from Akuma is far greater than the atomic weapons that hit Bison.Yeah I said it.
Don't agree wit that and even if it were true, Akuma would 'never' hit'im.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Why assume he can just auto mindrape when he has always had to defeat them first? Unhealthy assumption, and in terms of personal combat, Gouki is far above Bison.
He doesn't have to defeat people 1st. It is very clear from the start that Bison toyed 'everyone' which is why his defeat was CIS. Rose sure doesn't have to beat anyone to screw wit their heads and Bison is far better.
Originally posted by NemeBro
So he is a "fighter," Goku is only a "fighter," yet he is infinitely Bison's better. Flying as fast or faster than an f-22 means he can fly at speeds of mach 2 or more, which is impressive, but there are bullets that fast or faster, which even Ryu can effortlessly dodge.
Goku can blow up planets, not a very good example.
Bein' faster than an F 22 means he can fly Mach 3 or more. That's flight/travel speed, that's aint battle speed. That coupled wit instant spammable teleportation, makes him very bad news.
Originally posted by NemeBro
When did he fly to space by the way?
In one of the endins. He flew into space to intercept the Psycho Drive beam.
Originally posted by No End N Site
I've never seen Bison's psychic powers fail witout outside help. Bison's power has been shown to change the whether dramatically, creatin' hurricane like storms wit skulls in the sky. Greater psychic powers than Rose and Rose's powers are so great that she can predict the future, read minds, cleanse them, and create illusions on significant scales. Not to mention that his power is great enough to vaporize cities and he has all the power in the world to use. Ryu is capable of controlin' the Dark Hadou as well, he just didn't want too.
Couple of things here; 1st: it did fail with ken, and it did fail with Ryu, and speaking of, it did eventually fail with Cammy as well, completely unaided.
2nd: Bison can't predict the future, Rose can. It's a different power. Bison's powers are geared for combat alot more than Rose's are, rose is definitely the better mentalist of the two.
3rd: Blow away cities yes... But gouki has comparable feats with his fists, and more of them, and bigger in scale.
4th: No, Ryu can't, and never has shown the ability to control it... it takes a mental kick for him to re-assert himself back into control, and when he does, the Dark hadou vanishes back into a slumbering state, Akuma's Dakr Hadou is always awake, and completely under his command at will, a very different kettle of fish.
Originally posted by No End N Site
I don't think he needed to weaken Ryu and Ken to brainwash'em. I think he just kicked their ass 1st, cuz he wanted to. He is FAR more powerful than them. Don't get me wrong, Akuma is very strong, but at the end of the day, he is just a fighter. Akuma is like Ryu multiplied by a large number. Bison can fly out to space in moments. He can fly faster than a fighter jet. He can teleport. Survive A-Bomb sized explosions and he is immortal. Bison will fly outta the atmosphere and vaporize him.
1st: isn't that an assumption? Should we just accept that he can do something that was not shown? I for one beleive that he is not a very powerful mentalist, he is one, but he needs to weaken the resolve of his opponent to do this, it makes more sense, since Bison is not particularly unintelligent, and he knew the others where comming, why would he waste time beating the shit out of both ken and his intended target for psycho power transfer: Ryu?
2nd: he never flew into space canonically, he got shot down in the atmosphere by the satelie when it was fired by Chun Li. there have only ever been 2 times he's done the flying into space thing, the XvsSF ending, and the SVC Chaos ending, both of which are non-canon.
3rd: Ok.... Yes he is fast, akuma's faster, having dealt with guys like Gen, Oro and Gill, Gen being the fastest and most accurate of these 3 makes Bison look slow, and both oro and Gill are arguably as powerful, if not moreso than Bison. Teleportation is also in Akuma's back pocket, and as for the immortal thing, I think Akuma has already demostrated that fallibility with the Shun Goku Satsu, Obliterating bison's 2nd body in an instant. The only way Bison came back was via a clone body receiving the Psycho Power, Thats not immortality, thats resurrection, and nowhere near the same scale as Gill's.
Originally posted by No End N Site
Don't agree wit that and even if it were true, Akuma would 'never' hit'im.
I seriously doubt this claim, Gouki is both faster, and more combat oriented than Bison, plus he also has the phasing techniques, It's a matter of who can outmaneuver who, and since Gouki is faster and has better reflexes...
Originally posted by No End N Site
He doesn't have to defeat people 1st. It is very clear from the start that Bison toyed 'everyone' which is why his defeat was CIS. Rose sure doesn't have to beat anyone to screw wit their heads and Bison is far better.
As a fighter he is, but not as a mentalist.
Originally posted by No End N Site
Goku can blow up planets, not a very good example.Bein' faster than an F 22 means he can fly Mach 3 or more. That's flight/travel speed, that's aint battle speed. That coupled wit instant spammable teleportation, makes him very bad news.
Gouki has the speed and the reflexes and the teleportation to match, plus a wider variety of techniques.
Originally posted by No End N Site
In one of the endins. He flew into space to intercept the Psycho Drive beam.
Addressed this already.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Couple of things here; 1st: it did fail with ken, and it did fail with Ryu, and speaking of, it did eventually fail with Cammy as well, completely unaided.2nd: Bison can't predict the future, Rose can. It's a different power. Bison's powers are geared for combat alot more than Rose's are, rose is definitely the better mentalist of the two.
3rd: Blow away cities yes... But gouki has comparable feats with his fists, and more of them, and bigger in scale.
4th: No, Ryu can't, and never has shown the ability to control it... it takes a mental kick for him to re-assert himself back into control, and when he does, the Dark hadou vanishes back into a slumbering state, Akuma's Dakr Hadou is always awake, and completely under his command at will, a very different kettle of fish.
1st: isn't that an assumption? Should we just accept that he can do something that was not shown? I for one beleive that he is not a very powerful mentalist, he is one, but he needs to weaken the resolve of his opponent to do this, it makes more sense, since Bison is not particularly unintelligent, and he knew the others where comming, why would he waste time beating the shit out of both ken and his intended target for psycho power transfer: Ryu?
2nd: he never flew into space canonically, he got shot down in the atmosphere by the satelie when it was fired by Chun Li. there have only ever been 2 times he's done the flying into space thing, the XvsSF ending, and the SVC Chaos ending, both of which are non-canon.
3rd: Ok.... Yes he is fast, akuma's faster, having dealt with guys like Gen, Oro and Gill, Gen being the fastest and most accurate of these 3 makes Bison look slow, and both oro and Gill are arguably as powerful, if not moreso than Bison. Teleportation is also in Akuma's back pocket, and as for the immortal thing, I think Akuma has already demostrated that fallibility with the Shun Goku Satsu, Obliterating bison's 2nd body in an instant. The only way Bison came back was via a clone body receiving the Psycho Power, Thats not immortality, thats resurrection, and nowhere near the same scale as Gill's.
I seriously doubt this claim, Gouki is both faster, and more combat oriented than Bison, plus he also has the phasing techniques, It's a matter of who can outmaneuver who, and since Gouki is faster and has better reflexes...
As a fighter he is, but not as a mentalist.
Gouki has the speed and the reflexes and the teleportation to match, plus a wider variety of techniques.
Addressed this already.
It did fail wit Ken, after Ryu kicked his ass. Ryu got coached out of it by Sagat. Cammy was saved by Vega and the fact that she is a Bison clone with the potential to be stronger than Bison himself may have helped as well.
Rose and Bison are the same person. They have the same powers as Bison said, she just calls it by a different name.
Bison and Akuma have similar feats, I agree. Akuma's may be even better. But Bison can do his feats from anywhere. Akuma is grounded and his teleportation does not work as well as Bison's. Bison can literally appear any where almost instantly and can open warp/worm holes.
Evil Ryu is a clear depiction of what Ryu is like if he gives in to the Dark Hadou and he's actually shown to be capable of destroying Akuma, Shin and all. How can you possibly say that Ryu can not control the Dark Hadou when he can clearly reject it and chose not to use it and is later stated to be on par wit the power in SFIII?
Like I said before, Capcom has said his greatest skill is Hypnosis. It's stronger than anything he has. His Psychic power is granted due to his Psycho power. However strong his Psycho power is his psychic power should be on the same level. Note that Shin Bison's psychic powers were stronger than the SFII versions. If he has all the power in the world, I don't see how he has to weaken peeps to use powers on'em. He beat them up 1st, for fun. Which is yet another reason why his loss was CIS.
Never said Bison did it canonly, but the endin' shows that he could if he wanted to, very easily.
I have no idea what your basin' this claim that Akuma is faster than Bison or how M.Bison is slower than the rest of the bosses on. His travel speed is Mach 3 'at least', the rest are clearly slower by a quite a bit. The Asura Senku is clearly not as good or as fast as the Bison Warp. Bison's teleportation skills are better by miles. Akuma killed the weakest version of Bison 'and' he still came back. Capcom has officially stated that 'Shin' Bison (the version at the end of this fight) can not die without the Drive bein' destroyed 1st. Shin Bison is immortal and there is nothin' to prove otherwise, especially since Capcom said it themselves. Unlike Gill, Shin Bison does not need to resurrect, he can not die in the 1st place.
I seriously doubt Akuma is faster or has better reflexes and I don't know where your evidence for your claim comes from. Reflexes and reaction speed are several times faster than movement speed and Bison moves at least Mach 3 and can do instantaneous teleport spams. He blows Akuma out of the water.
Not true, if Bison was a weaker mentalist than Rose, she could have easily incapacitated him in the 1st place. She could not even enter Bison's mind and there the same person. In fact, she still couldn't stop Bison wit her "superior" mental abilities in SFIV and he was as weak a the SFII Bison.
'Seemingly baseless claim as I have stated already.
Originally posted by No End N Site
It did fail wit Ken, after Ryu kicked his ass. Ryu got coached out of it by Sagat. Cammy was saved by Vega and the fact that she is a Bison clone with the potential to be stronger than Bison himself may have helped as well.
No, She was already gaining self awareness before Vega turned up. as for Ryu & Ken needing to be "coaxed" out of it, I point to Juli & Juni, They had the ever living stuffing beat out of them, one by T.Hawk, and it did nothing to snap them out of it, that makes it contradictory.
Originally posted by No End N Site
Rose and Bison are the same person. They have the same powers as Bison said, she just calls it by a different name.
No, They share the same soul, but they remain 2 different people. In fact, judging from SF4, the very conscious of Bison isn't actually within the body, but it is the Psycho Power itself...
Originally posted by No End N Site
Bison and Akuma have similar feats, I agree. Akuma's may be even better. But Bison can do his feats from anywhere. Akuma is grounded and his teleportation does not work as well as Bison's. Bison can literally appear any where almost instantly and can open warp/worm holes.
....... What?
Ok, the only difference here is the fact that Akuma doesn't have self propelled flight, and he doesn't "fade" when he teleports, however, the flight is negated when Akuma can jump well beyond Bison's flight range, he moves faster, can redirect his own trajectory in mid air (Tenma Kuujin Kuyaku is a perfect example) and his teleportation is actually faster than Bison's. Plus, Akuma's operational range is also MUCH broader than Bison's, he can survive in places Bison can't go.
Originally posted by No End N Site
Evil Ryu is a clear depiction of what Ryu is like if he gives in to the Dark Hadou and he's actually shown to be capable of destroying Akuma, Shin and all. How can you possibly say that Ryu can not control the Dark Hadou when he can clearly reject it and chose not to use it and is later stated to be on par wit the power in SFIII?
1st: Thats assumption, and dependant on player skill for one, Evil ryu never fought anyone other than Sagat canonically, and even if we did it this way, who is to say that E.Ryu would win that fight?
2nd: Umm, No... he is not.... Rejecting the Dark Hadou, and controlling it are two very different things. How can you control a car if you don't turn the keys to start the engine?
Originally posted by No End N Site
Like I said before, Capcom has said his greatest skill is Hypnosis. It's stronger than anything he has. His Psychic power is granted due to his Psycho power. However strong his Psycho power is his psychic power should be on the same level. Note that Shin Bison's psychic powers were stronger than the SFII versions. If he has all the power in the world, I don't see how he has to weaken peeps to use powers on'em. He beat them up 1st, for fun. Which is yet another reason why his loss was CIS.
And yest, he did have to beath them up first, Profile statements or no, thats what the chain of events has him doing. Unless you can find an instance of him instantly and without prep, brainwashing someone, then it's assumption at best.
Originally posted by No End N Site
Never said Bison did it canonly, but the endin' shows that he could if he wanted to, very easily.
........ It never happened..... We can't accept this.
Originally posted by No End N Site
I have no idea what your basin' this claim that Akuma is faster than Bison or how M.Bison is slower than the rest of the bosses on. His travel speed is Mach 3 'at least', the rest are clearly slower by a quite a bit. The Asura Senku is clearly not as good or as fast as the Bison Warp. Bison's teleportation skills are better by miles. Akuma killed the weakest version of Bison 'and' he still came back. Capcom has officially stated that 'Shin' Bison (the version at the end of this fight) can not die without the Drive bein' destroyed 1st. Shin Bison is immortal and there is nothin' to prove otherwise, especially since Capcom said it themselves. Unlike Gill, Shin Bison does not need to resurrect, he can not die in the 1st place.
I never said Bison was slower than Gill or Oro overall, but combat speed is something else entirely, or should I suddenly summon up half baked theories that Akuma mached that speed underwater? I don't think you'd swallow that. And Bison never actually fought anyone with that speed.
"Clearly" is a relative term, as I explained above, they are about as efective in combat as eachother, plus, Akuma actually uses this technique for traveling at long distance at speed, Bison uses flying fortresses and other aircraft, thus why I said Akumas operational range is vastly better than Bison.
nad yet, Bison did die when the Psycho Drive was active in several endings. Specifically Sagat's, Ryu's, Ken's, Rose's and Sakura's, Thats 5 out of the 8 fighters confirmed to have confronted him at the time. This and Bison has been at the very least knocked unconscious even in that form before, it took direct infusion of psycho energy to bring him back in several fights. His profile even states he is on the verge of dying due to his body being overmatched by the Psycho Energy he is currently wielding, thats why he's seeking out Ryu.
Originally posted by No End N Site
I seriously doubt Akuma is faster or has better reflexes and I don't know where your evidence for your claim comes from. Reflexes and reaction speed are several times faster than movement speed and Bison moves at least Mach 3 and can do instantaneous teleport spams. He blows Akuma out of the water.
I have based this on Akuma's feats, and relative opponents. Gen, who strikes FAR faster than Mach 3, and more accurately than most people in SFer. Oro and Gill are both powerhouses who, are well within reach of any form of Bison power wise. And then there is Gouken, who, thus far, is the only one to have claimed victory over Gouki before, has also suffered defeat at Gouki's hands. See what I'm saying? Gouki has fought this sort of stuff before, and he hasn't actually been defeated as of yet by anyone he hasn't either previously, or afterwards defeated himself..
Originally posted by No End N Site
Not true, if Bison was a weaker mentalist than Rose, she could have easily incapacitated him in the 1st place. She could not even enter Bison's mind and there the same person. In fact, she still couldn't stop Bison wit her "superior" mental abilities in SFIV and he was as weak a the SFII Bison.
Not true, I said he is not as pwerful a mentalist as Rose, but Rose lacks Biosn's sheer power, plus they are connected on the spiritual level, which may also play a part (That last part is conjecture)
Let me ask you this then, When has Rose taken over someone's mind?
Originally posted by No End N Site
'Seemingly baseless claim as I have stated already.
What, the fact that Bison going into space was non-canon? Thats not baseless at all... Your using two non-canon instances to justify an ability in a debate dude....
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No, She was already gaining self awareness before Vega turned up. as for Ryu & Ken needing to be "coaxed" out of it, I point to Juli & Juni, They had the ever living stuffing beat out of them, one by T.Hawk, and it did nothing to snap them out of it, that makes it contradictory.No, They share the same soul, but they remain 2 different people. In fact, judging from SF4, the very conscious of Bison isn't actually within the body, but it is the Psycho Power itself...
....... What?
Ok, the only difference here is the fact that Akuma doesn't have self propelled flight, and he doesn't "fade" when he teleports, however, the flight is negated when Akuma can jump well beyond Bison's flight range, he moves faster, can redirect his own trajectory in mid air (Tenma Kuujin Kuyaku is a perfect example) and his teleportation is actually faster than Bison's. Plus, Akuma's operational range is also MUCH broader than Bison's, he can survive in places Bison can't go.
1st: Thats assumption, and dependant on player skill for one, Evil ryu never fought anyone other than Sagat canonically, and even if we did it this way, who is to say that E.Ryu would win that fight?
2nd: Umm, No... he is not.... Rejecting the Dark Hadou, and controlling it are two very different things. How can you control a car if you don't turn the keys to start the engine?
And yest, he did have to beath them up first, Profile statements or no, thats what the chain of events has him doing. Unless you can find an instance of him instantly and without prep, brainwashing someone, then it's assumption at best.
........ It never happened..... We can't accept this.
I never said Bison was slower than Gill or Oro overall, but combat speed is something else entirely, or should I suddenly summon up half baked theories that Akuma mached that speed underwater? I don't think you'd swallow that. And Bison never actually fought anyone with that speed.
"Clearly" is a relative term, as I explained above, they are about as efective in combat as eachother, plus, Akuma actually uses this technique for traveling at long distance at speed, Bison uses flying fortresses and other aircraft, thus why I said Akumas operational range is vastly better than Bison.
nad yet, Bison did die when the Psycho Drive was active in several endings. Specifically Sagat's, Ryu's, Ken's, Rose's and Sakura's, Thats 5 out of the 8 fighters confirmed to have confronted him at the time. This and Bison has been at the very least knocked unconscious even in that form before, it took direct infusion of psycho energy to bring him back in several fights. His profile even states he is on the verge of dying due to his body being overmatched by the Psycho Energy he is currently wielding, thats why he's seeking out Ryu.
I have based this on Akuma's feats, and relative opponents. Gen, who strikes FAR faster than Mach 3, and more accurately than most people in SFer. Oro and Gill are both powerhouses who, are well within reach of any form of Bison power wise. And then there is Gouken, who, thus far, is the only one to have claimed victory over Gouki before, has also suffered defeat at Gouki's hands. See what I'm saying? Gouki has fought this sort of stuff before, and he hasn't actually been defeated as of yet by anyone he hasn't either previously, or afterwards defeated himself..
Not true, I said he is not as pwerful a mentalist as Rose, but Rose lacks Biosn's sheer power, plus they are connected on the spiritual level, which may also play a part (That last part is conjecture)
Let me ask you this then, When has Rose taken over someone's mind?
What, the fact that Bison going into space was non-canon? Thats not baseless at all... Your using two non-canon instances to justify an ability in a debate dude....
I remember her bein' unconscious and then Vega savein' her and that's when she came to. I don't remember any self awareness before that. Juli & Juni were already heavily under Bison's influence to the point where they could not live with out the Psychic link. Ryu and Ken were not.
Bison and Rose are 2 sides of same coin. Rose is the good half of Bison. 2 lives sharing the same soul, he even said it.
Prove everything you just said.
1. Not assumption, Capcom said it. That's Ryu, if like Akuma, he gave in to the Dark Hadou.
2. Ryu doesn't even need the Dark Hadou so this entire argument is irrelevant.
'You' show me where it says he has to beat them up to do so, cuz I'm readin' the SFEC and it says nothin' about prior battles or weakenin' before takin' over Ryu's body. 'Says nothin' about prep or anything. I'm not gonna assume somethin' that was never even stated. If Hyo from RS can brainwash wit no prep, I know Shin Bison can.
Hey, whatever dude, I can. I can assume Akuma knows the Tenshou Kaireki Jin despite that endin' never happening. I can assume Gill can part the ocean, even though that endin aint canon.
Can you prove that Akuma is faster than a man who can fly faster than jet?
Also, Bison has shown that he does not need a to use fortresses and jets, he simply chooses to. I have not seen anything that would make me think Akuma has enough of an upper hand in this respect to turn the tide in a fight.
Point missed, Bison will not go away until the Drive is destroyed. Akuma can not stop Bison from reappearing. Also, what Bison profile are you readin', where it says Bison will die if he doesn't get Ryu's body? The SFEC only states that he needs Ryu's body to manipulate the full extent of his Psycho Power. His body cannot wield large portions of the Psycho Power at once, like he wants to. Not that he already has too much and is on the verge of death.
Can you prove any of what you said? How do any of the characters you mentioned compare to Bison? I honestly don't think Akuma can beat Gill in an all out fight.
And I say you're wrong, because, raw power < mental power. If she is truly a better mentalist, I don't see how raw power can be a defense against Psychic power. Last I checked, it was not.
I never said she could take over peoples mind, only that she can screw with it in effective and meaningful ways. Like reading minds and uncorrupting, corrupted minds.
Rather you chose to accept the endings that suit arguments or not, Capcom's intent was clear. They wanted to show Bison would go to extraordinary means to use his power and they did. There are many non canon endings from many games we all accept. Why suddenly not this one? Sounds weird to me.
Originally posted by No End N Site
I remember her bein' unconscious and then Vega savein' her and that's when she came to. I don't remember any self awareness before that. Juli & Juni were already heavily under Bison's influence to the point where they could not live with out the Psychic link. Ryu and Ken were not.
She was becoming more and more self aware as time passed, Bison and Vega both stated as such, in both Cammy's storyline and Vega's.
Originally posted by No End N Site
Bison and Rose are 2 sides of same coin. Rose is the good half of Bison. 2 lives sharing the same soul, he even said it.
Yes.... As I said, 2 people sharing the same soul, but not the same body, nor the same power. His powers are a corrupted version of hers, focused on destruction. Her's is the original side that focuses more on the spiritual and psychic abilities.
Originally posted by No End N Site
Prove everything you just said.
Prove what? Can you be specific please.
Originally posted by No End N Site
1. Not assumption, Capcom said it. That's Ryu, if like Akuma, he gave in to the Dark Hadou.2. Ryu doesn't even need the Dark Hadou so this entire argument is irrelevant.
1. No, Thats Ryu if he took control of the Dark Hadou. Ryu broke free of Bison's attempted assimilation by going wild, Like in the SF4 Anime.
2. You've lost the point of the argument.... It was about Ryu using his Dark Hadou power to break free of Bison's supposedly superior brainwashing by just waking it up, My point was, if Ryu can do it simply by activating the Dark hadou, why can't Akuma, who has vast control over his Dark Hadou, it is always awakened, and by rights is vastly superior to Ryu's dark hadou by 3 orders of magnitude?
What you did was turn this point into a debate of wether or not Ryu had control over it, which he didn't, and even if he did, my point still stands.
Originally posted by No End N Site
'You' show me where it says he has to beat them up to do so, cuz I'm readin' the SFEC and it says nothin' about prior battles or weakenin' before takin' over Ryu's body. 'Says nothin' about prep or anything. I'm not gonna assume somethin' that was never even stated. If Hyo from RS can brainwash wit no prep, I know Shin Bison can.
Your basing your argument off of an unrelated characters ability? That's a faulty argument... The fact stands, Bison NEVER HAS hypnotised anyone without A: Prep time and machine aide, or B: Beating the ever living stuffing out of them first. You made the claim, you back it up.
Originally posted by No End N Site
Hey, whatever dude, I can. I can assume Akuma knows the Tenshou Kaireki Jin despite that endin' never happening. I can assume Gill can part the ocean, even though that endin aint canon.
The biggest fault with assumptions is that they are not backed by anything. The Tenshou Kaireki Jin event did happen, But Gill parting the ocean certainly has not, otherwise it conflicts with other canon events. there is a very large difference.
Originally posted by No End N Site
Can you prove that Akuma is faster than a man who can fly faster than jet?
Sure, he travels continental distances with no more aide than the Ashura Senkuu, thats how he gets to fights in mere minutes rather than days/weeks/months/years of walking.
Originally posted by No End N Site
Also, Bison has shown that he does not need a to use fortresses and jets, he simply chooses to. I have not seen anything that would make me think Akuma has enough of an upper hand in this respect to turn the tide in a fight.
Where has he shown this? Chun Li's Ending? I thought it was established that that part of her ending was non canon?
Originally posted by No End N Site
Point missed, Bison will not go away until the Drive is destroyed. Akuma can not stop Bison from reappearing. Also, what Bison profile are you readin', where it says Bison will die if he doesn't get Ryu's body? The SFEC only states that he needs Ryu's body to manipulate the full extent of his Psycho Power. His body cannot wield large portions of the Psycho Power at once, like he wants to. Not that he already has too much and is on the verge of death.
Bison's SFA3 Intro, you know, the version of Bison we are using?
Dude, wether or not Bison actually dies at the end of the fight is COMPLETELY irrelevant... If he is forced from his own body for weeks months or YEARS as he was before SF4, thats all Akuma needs, he's done it before with contemptable ease, he may have some difficulty with Shin Bison, but Akuma has the right tools for the job, always has.
And remember, I too also have SFEC, It cover a lot, but it doesn't cover everything. You need to look at all the relevant material.
Originally posted by No End N Site
Can you prove any of what you said? How do any of the characters you mentioned compare to Bison? I honestly don't think Akuma can beat Gill in an all out fight.
Now I know I don't have to tutor you about the abilities of Gen and Oro...
Ah, But they have clashed, and Gouki came out the victor, the only reason Gill is alive is because he resurrected after Gouki left.
Originally posted by No End N Site
And I say you're wrong, because, raw power < mental power. If she is truly a better mentalist, I don't see how raw power can be a defense against Psychic power. Last I checked, it was not.
Bison's relative immunity to Rose's hypnosis? Or hows about the fact that Rose doesn't hypnotise people? Remember, Lesser beings have fought through the hypnosis, and Rose's spiritual powers far outshine Bison's and are backed by events, Bison is an energy powerhouse, much like Zangeif is a physical one. There is a difference bitween an energy holic and raw muscle hulking brute, Rose would have no trouble flattening Zangief and using him as a human toilet if she wanted, but because Bison (And Akuma and others around the same power level) give off copious amounts of energy, Rose's powers only work to a lesser extent.
Originally posted by No End N Site
I never said she could take over peoples mind, only that she can screw with it in effective and meaningful ways. Like reading minds and uncorrupting, corrupted minds.
If Rose, who is the better of the two psychics cannot hypnotise, then why Bison, who'se energies are focused more on physical destruction?
Originally posted by No End N Site
Rather you chose to accept the endings that suit arguments or not, Capcom's intent was clear. They wanted to show Bison would go to extraordinary means to use his power and they did. There are many non canon endings from many games we all accept. Why suddenly not this one? Sounds weird to me.
Uh.... When have I stated a non-canon instance as fact? I use them for fluff and filler, but not actual debating material.
Not to mention both instances where from completely non-canon games...
What, suddenly CVS2, SVC Chaos, CFE, The Marvel vs series and all them now have canon credibility? Do you realise what kind of Pandora's box your tampering with here?