Personally, I love Celtic/Norse/Little Folk mythology.
But I quote "My Big Fat Greek Wedding."
"What are three things the Greek did first."
"Philosophy, Democracy, and Astrology."
Or something like that.
Also - think of a word, any word, and I tell you the Greek word.
But seriously, Greek Mythology was taught in school. In seventh or eighth grade, we studied it in English. I did some further education in Greek research by doing a class of it through itunes, where a professor just put her very popular and educational lectures into about 30 minute mini-lectures. I thought that it had a really fascinating "beginning" story. Out of chaos came mother earth and father sky who birthed the titans....
And then onto descriptions and stories of the gods and goddesses and how that reflected onto Ancient Greek [and related to today's] life.
^ We studied Norse Mythology and Norse paganism in fourth grade. We never did the Greek one though.
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Drawings?gg
If you know the runic alphabet and understand Old Norse, you can read what it says on this runestone for example:
http://illuminatedjourneys.com/images/rokstenen.jpg
Runestones also have drawings on them. But the term 'rune' doesn't refer to the pictures but to the inscription!
Originally posted by RhovanionI think he was being flippant.
^ We studied Norse Mythology and Norse paganism in fourth grade. We never did the Greek one though.You do know that runes are letters right? In Scandinavia we call the runic alphabet the Futhark (since the first six letters are F, U, Þ, A, R and K). The runic alphabet doesn't look like the Latin alphabet, but that doesn't make it any less of an alphabet. They're not hieroglyphs.
If you know the runic alphabet and understand Old Norse, you can read what it says on this runestone for example:
http://illuminatedjourneys.com/images/rokstenen.jpgRunestones also have drawings on them. But the term 'rune' doesn't refer to the pictures but to the inscription!
Originally posted by Nephthys
Plus runes where only taught to a select few elites. Therefor they were much less usefull in spreading the culture etc of the Norse people.
I could be wrong but I was under the impression everyone knew the runic script.
I think basically Greek mythology is more popular because we look down on The Vikings as barbarians, I think the Normans had something to do with that. Prior to the Normans conquering England we had a closer connection to Scandinvia, they Normans also tried make the Anglo-Saxons look uncivilised.
The Normans were also in control of Sicilily and southern Italy at one point. Closer proximity to the descendants of a Greco-Roman culture that ruled for centuries is going to stir interest.
As the Eastern Roman Empire aged it began to take on a more "Greek" feel to it. Greek became the standard language, overtaking Latin. The Crusaders sacked and pillaged large swathes of land that had been at one point under Byzantine control, collecting and gradually distributing elements of the Greek (and other) culture(s) over Christendom.
Norse mythology has been less popular and omnipresent for the simple fact that it was too far removed for too long from mainland Europe (Christendom). Greek mythology has had the advantage of age and proximity.
No, I'm fairly sure it was only a select few who had any form of writing.
Well theres also the fact that every dozen years or so the Vikings would just show up in their boats and pillage the shit out of England for no real reason whatsoever. Having a religion that glorifies dying in battle over in your bed tends to make one look like a bit of a douche to the rest of the world.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The Normans were also in control of Sicilily and southern Italy at one point. Closer proximity to the descendants of a Greco-Roman culture that ruled for centuries is going to stir interest.
They were also descendents of the Vikings.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Norse mythology has been less popular and omnipresent for the simple fact that it was too far removed for too long from mainland Europe (Christendom). Greek mythology has had the advantage of age and proximity.
England is right next door to Scandinivia. The Anglo-Saxons were technically Vikings, they had the same gods and culture as The Vikings they just converted to Christanity earlier but they were still similar to The Vikings. Look at they way The Anglo-Saxons fought also I think Beowulf has elements of Norse paganism and Christanity.
I don't see what age has to do with it. Norse mythology didn't come out of nowhere you know.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I'm fairly sure it was only a select few who had any form of writing.
Source please. By the way it takes more than just writing to make you civilised.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well theres also the fact that every dozen years or so the Vikings would just show up in their boats and pillage the [b]shit out of England for no real reason whatsoever. [/B]
Everyone was pillaging The Vikings just got a bad reputation becasue they were pagan. There were loads of Norse people that didn't do pillaging and didn't even leave there Village
Originally posted by NephthysHaving a religion that glorifies dying in battle over in your bed tends to make one look like a bit of a douche to the rest of the world.
Which shows how little you know about it. You are stereotyping the Vikings only certain people did that, there were alot of people that hated it. That is usually associated with the followers of Odin.
Source please. By the way it takes more than just writing to make you civilised.
I never said it did. Re-read my post, I was pointing out that not having a widely used form of writing would have made it harder to spread and preserve their culture.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/evidence_01.shtml
'it is likely that few people were literate in runes.'
Everyone was pillaging The Vikings just got a bad reputation becasue they were pagan. There were loads of Norse people that didn't do pillaging and didn't even leave there Village
The Greeks weren't. They were too busy nobbing little boys to do any pillaging.
Which shows how little you know about it. You are stereotyping the Vikings only certain people did that, there were alot of people that hated it. That is usually associated with the followers of Odin.
'There were alot of people that hated it?' How the hell do you know that exactly? Did they take public opinion polls or something?
Originally posted by DeadlineTrue, but religion isn't genetic. The descendants of the original Viking settlers/conquerors of the area intermixed with the native Franks. Christianization was inevitable, and it happened. By the time the Viking raids ebbed out in the 12th century(ish), Christianity was the religion of Normandy. Thanks to their conquering of England, that country obviously was too. Paganism was suppressed.
They were also descendents of the Vikings.
Originally posted by DeadlineAgain, religion isn't genetic. If it were, most of Italy would still be worshiping Jupiter. There's also a distinct difference between Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Anglo-Saxons, and their brethren Scandinavian Vikings. The former were all north Germanic/Netherlands people, and the Northern European coast wasn't subject to much Viking settlement. Not all pre-1066 invaders of Britain were Vikings (or their descendants).
England is right next door to Scandinivia. The Anglo-Saxons were technically Vikings, they had the same gods and culture as The Vikings they just converted to Christanity earlier but they were still similar to The Vikings. Look at they way The Anglo-Saxons fought also I think Beowulf has elements of Norse paganism and Christanity.
Originally posted by DeadlineYou misread my point. The ancient Greek's mythology (religion) is much older than Norse mythology. That is, it's older than the Norse mythology we know of (most sources on its earliest incarnations date to like 1000 AD, whereas the Greeks go back before Rome). Greek mythology was also present all throughout the Hellenistic era, the Roman era, the Byzantine era, etc. It's been documented and archived since before Homer and spread about Roman and Christian Europe since technically Pytheas mapped out Britain in the 300s BC.
I don't see what age has to do with it. Norse mythology didn't come out of nowhere you know.
Greek mythology was just more... everywhere for much longer than Norse mythology. I don't know how to say it simpler.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I never said it did. Re-read my post, I was pointing out that not having a widely used form of writing would have made it harder to spread and preserve their culture.
I don't need to re-read it anyone can be forgiven for thinking the post was implying that the Vikings were relatively uncivilised,
Originally posted by Nephthys
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/evidence_01.shtml'it is likely that few people were literate in runes.'
That may well be true but it didn't actually provide any conclusive evidence. All I can say is that Thor did have some connection with the runes and he was seen as a god of the common people.
Originally posted by NephthysThe Greeks weren't. They were too busy nobbing little boys to do any pillaging.
I could be wrong but I wouldn't be suprised if stuff like that occured during those times, pillaging that is.
Originally posted by Nephthys'There were alot of people that hated it?' How the hell do you know that exactly? Did they take public opinion polls or something?
Lots of reasons. The reason why we have people living on Iceland is because they were running from Harlod Hardrada who was trying to rule over the whole of Norway, then more people fled to Iceland who were trying to run from Olaf. It wasn't seen as a golorious opportunity to die in battle it was a seen as a tragic event. There is also an incident of Olaf throwing a spear into a temple were weapons were prohibited.
Also this idea of dying in battle is mainly associated with the followers of Odin and especially beserkers. If the Vikings loved fighting so much they wouldn't have banned ritual combat and beserking.
http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/berserke.shtml
It was no doubt due to these excesses of the berserker that resulted in their demise. In 1015 King Erik outlawed berserks, along with hólmganga or duels (Fabing, p. 235): it had become a common practice for a berserker to challenge men of property to hólmgang, and upon slaying the unfortunate victim, to take possession of his goods, wealth, and women. This was a difficult tactic to counter, since a man so challenged had to appear, have a champion fight for him, or else be named niðingr and coward. Egils saga Skallagrímsonar records one such encounter:
There's a man called Ljot, a berserker and duel-fighter, hated by everyone. he came here and asked to marry my daughter, but we gave him a short answer and said no to his offer. After that Ljot challenged my son Fridgeir to single combat, so he has to go and fight the duel tomorrow on the isle of Valdero" (Palsson and Edwards, Egil's Saga, p. 169).
Don't get me wrong warriors were respected in Viking society, but apart from the followers of Odin I can't see anything that suggests that dying in battle is preferable to dying in your in bed. A lot of Norse people were farmers who wanted to just live in peace instead of having to fight.
Obvously anybody who was capable of defending his family and people was respected but the problem was you would have people who would take advantage of other people and who just wanted to fight for the sake of it, people like that were hated.
For most Vikings (Norse people) fighting was just seen as something that you had to do, not something that was preferable.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
True, but religion isn't genetic. The descendants of the original Viking settlers/conquerors of the area intermixed with the native Franks. Christianization was inevitable, and it happened. By the time the Viking raids ebbed out in the 12th century(ish), Christianity was the religion of Normandy. Thanks to their conquering of England, that country obviously was too. Paganism was suppressed.
You're strawmanning. I'm not arguing that its genetic my point is that even after people have converted to another religon there are still traces of the previous religon/culture. To be fair though the Anglo-saxons are a better comparison to the Normans.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Again, religion isn't genetic. If it were, most of Italy would still be worshiping Jupiter. There's also a distinct difference between Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Anglo-Saxons, and their brethren Scandinavian Vikings. The former were all north Germanic/Netherlands people, and the Northern European coast wasn't subject to much Viking settlement. Not all pre-1066 invaders of Britain were Vikings (or their descendants).
Again I'm not arguing it's genetic. You also completely missed my point, even after the Anglo-Saxons converted they were still similar in culture to the Vikings. Some Anglo-Saxons poems have traces of paganism and Christanity. There were poems about Thor after the pagan period. My point is even after people convert people can still have an interest and appreciation for past culture.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You misread my point. The ancient Greek's mythology (religion) is much older than Norse mythology. That is, it's older than the Norse mythology we know of (most sources on its earliest incarnations date to like 1000 AD, whereas the Greeks go back before Rome). Greek mythology was also present all throughout the Hellenistic era, the Roman era, the Byzantine era, etc. It's been documented and archived since before Homer and spread about Roman and Christian Europe since technically Pytheas mapped out Britain in the 300s BC.Greek mythology was just more... everywhere for much longer than Norse mythology. I don't know how to say it simpler.
No I didn't. You missed the point I was making, Norse mythology was around before The Viking era. What I mean is Norse gods existed druing the times of the Romans.
The point I'm making is the whole of Norse mythology didn't spring up during that period. The Vikings have a tradition, stories and mythology that existed before then but obvoulsy there were some changes during The Viking era.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I'm fairly sure it was only a select few who had any form of writing.
Originally posted by DeadlineTrue, and given that British culture is a cocktail of millenia of cultural inter-breeding, traces of Danelaw and Norse customs are obviously there.
You're strawmanning. I'm not arguing that its genetic my point is that even after people have converted to another religon there are still traces of the previous religon/culture. To be fair though the Anglo-saxons are a better comparison to the Normans.
Originally posted by DeadlineYes, and given that we today know about it, they obviously did. But in relevance to the thread's question, simple knowledge of a mythology's existence doesn't make it (more) popular.
Again I'm not arguing it's genetic. You also completely missed my point, even after the Anglo-Saxons converted they were still similar in culture to the Vikings. Some Anglo-Saxons poems have traces of paganism and Christanity. There were poems about Thor after the pagan period. My point is even after people convert people can still have an interest and appreciation for past culture.
Originally posted by DeadlineEvidently. But again, simply existing concomitantly to the Greeks and Romans won't make it "more popular" as per the OP's verbiage. There are comparatively mounds of documentation and archives of the Ancients Greeks and their gods than there are of the Scandinavians and theirs. The Norse sources are also much younger. They haven't had the time that the Greeks had to permeate hundreds of cultures over the centuries. Tied in with that, they were also very localized to Scandinavia and the North Sea. The Greek Pantheon (and its Roman successor) by comparison was at varying points from 330 B.C. to 1452, distributed from Britain to India.
No I didn't. You missed the point I was making, Norse mythology was around before The Viking era. What I mean is Norse gods existed druing the times of the Romans.The point I'm making is the whole of Norse mythology didn't spring up during that period. The Vikings have a tradition, stories and mythology that existed before then but obvoulsy there were some changes during The Viking era.
And that's my thesis: The Greek mythology has been spread out amongst more peoples, over larger areas, for greater lengths of time than Odin's boys. And the people they spawned from formed the building blocks of the Roman Empire and modern day Europe. That's something that has made them more popular.
Originally posted by Lord LucienAnd that's my thesis: The Greek mythology has been spread out amongst more peoples, over larger areas, for greater lengths of time than Odin's boys. And the people they spawned from formed the building blocks of the Roman Empire and modern day Europe. That's something that has made them more popular.
Good point but I still don't think thats why it's more popular. If that were the reason then it would be more popular in Iceland and other parts of Scandinivia. Now I can't be sure but I doubt its more popular in places like Norway and Iceland.
I think the reason why it became less popular was because of the Normans, prior to 1066 England had a greater connection to Scandinivia. The Normans made it their business to make Anglo-Saxon culture seem more barbaric. This attitude has still stuck till today, bare in mind the Normans were also responsible for creating the conflict between England and Ireland, so don't underestimate their influence on history.
I don't know the Norse people were forced to accept Christanity but for some reason Scandinivians seem to have kept a stronger connection to their pagan past.
Originally posted by DeadlineScandinavia is separated by a lot of water and a helluva trek through the Baltics. I'm betting a lot of early Christian missionaries just said "f*ck it".
Good point but I still don't think thats why it's more popular. If that were the reason then it would be more popular in Iceland and other parts of Scandinivia. Now I can't be sure but I doubt its more popular in places like Norway and Iceland.I think the reason why it became less popular was because of the Normans, prior to 1066 England had a greater connection to Scandinivia. The Normans made it their business to make Anglo-Saxon culture seem more barbaric. This attitude has still stuck till today, bare in mind the Normans were also responsible for creating the conflict between England and Ireland, so don't underestimate their influence on history.
I don't know the Norse people were forced to accept Christanity but for some reason Scandinivians seem to have kept a stronger connection to their pagan past.
And I think the OP, like most of us here, is either North American, British/Commonwealth, or mainland European. The colonies were all part of European empires that traced their own religious, political, and cultural roots to Rome and Greece. I don't think the answer's that complicated, it's just an issue of proximity and age. The Scandinavian religions just didn't expand over enough territory for a long enough period of time to have the same impact. We'll learn and teach ourselves about our own history first, it's why there's rarely a history class in Euro-centric high schools focusing on the ancient histories and cultures of India, or Mozambique. And our history is thrice and foremost: Christianity, democracy, Greco-Roman.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Scandinavia is separated by a lot of water and a helluva trek through the Baltics. I'm betting a lot of early Christian missionaries just said "f*ck it".
They didn't. England is right next door to Scandinavia, which is why people from there frequently landed in England. As far as I'm aware there are more examples of Vikings settling and visting Britain than there are in Ireland for example.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And I think the OP, like most of us here, is either North American, British/Commonwealth, or mainland European. The colonies were all part of European empires that traced their own religious, political, and cultural roots to Rome and Greece.
and I'm arguing this is because of the Normans.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I don't think the answer's that complicated, it's just an issue of proximity and age. The Scandinavian religions just didn't expand over enough territory for a long enough period of time to have the same impact. We'll learn and teach ourselves about our own history first, it's why there's rarely a history class in Euro-centric high schools focusing on the ancient histories and cultures of India, or Mozambique. And our history is thrice and foremost: Christianity, democracy, Greco-Roman.
Like I said if that were the reason it would be more popular in Norway and Iceland, I might be wrong but I doubt it.
Question is, Greeks gods didn't have a few holiday's like Halloween and St. Patricks Day (which my culture celbrates regularly - especially today). Halloween was originally a harvest festival thanking the gods for a great season of killing and raising food. St. Patricks Day originally when a alcholic priest was sent on a 'get sober' mission. Drove the snakes out of Ireland. We already drank too much, but St. Patrick just gave us an excuse to drink more.
By the way, have a great St. Patricks Day from a half Irish bastard!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDwlGbEcJ6Y
