The Problem Of Good

So imagine God makes a statement that something is good or should be done. Their are two possibilities: either the statement is inherently true or it is subjective.

In either case it seems to cause a problem for theism.

If it an intrinsic good then we do not need God because the thing/idea being good in independent of God.
If is is not an intrinsic good then God's position in no more valid than mine or yours and thus we do not need God anymore than any other philosopher.

Thoughts? Third options?

Isn't this the euthyphro dilemma?

I would think the theist's response would be to call this a False Dilemma and argue that the Good is intrinsic to God's character and that God's character is unchanging.

Originally posted by Autokrat
Isn't this the euthyphro dilemma?

Ah, I knew it had a name.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So imagine God makes a statement that something is good or should be done. Their are two possibilities: either the statement is inherently true or it is subjective.

In either case it seems to cause a problem for theism.

If it an intrinsic good then we do not need God because the thing/idea being good in independent of God.
If is is not an intrinsic good then God's position in no more valid than mine or yours and thus we do not need God anymore than any other philosopher.

Thoughts? Third options?

I think a philosopher of the big three would say it is the second option, and that God, in his infinite wisdom, has chosen the correct path for man. For Christians and Muslims, the changes in the nature of the lord from earlier scripture allows for God to even change his mind on some issues.

Originally posted by inimalist
I think a philosopher of the big three would say it is the second option, and that God, in his infinite wisdom, has chosen the correct path for man. For Christians and Muslims, the changes in the nature of the lord from earlier scripture allows for God to even change his mind on some issues.

Would that have the implication of God tacitly admitting that he made a mistake or realized he could do something better?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So imagine God makes a statement that something is good or should be done. Their are two possibilities: either the statement is inherently true or it is subjective.

In either case it seems to cause a problem for theism.

If it an intrinsic good then we do not need God because the thing/idea being good in independent of God.
If is is not an intrinsic good then God's position in no more valid than mine or yours and thus we do not need God anymore than any other philosopher.

Thoughts? Third options?

How would God make a statement?

Could intrinsic be interpreted as a statement made by God?

Can you name one thing that is intrinsically good?

I think it is a false problem because there is no such thing as intrinsically good.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How would God make a statement?

Could intrinsic be interpreted as a statement made by God?

Can you name one thing that is intrinsically good?

I think it is a false problem because there is no such thing as intrinsically good.

Many theists of the three Abrahamic faiths make the claim that certain actions are intrinsically good because God has declared them to be good through scripture or revelation.

That is where the dilemma comes into play.

Originally posted by Autokrat
Many theists of the three Abrahamic faiths make the claim that certain actions are intrinsically good because God has declared them to be good through scripture or revelation.

That is where the dilemma comes into play.

But all books are written by humans. Therefore, the claim that there is something intrinsically good is made up by humans.

Can you prove that something is intrinsically good?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But all books are written by humans. Therefore, the claim that there is something intrinsically good is made up by humans.

Can you prove that something is intrinsically good?

That isn't the point of this thread (at least, I don't think it is.) I'm an atheist so obviously I agree that all the books are written by humans and don't prove that anything is intrinsically good.

The point of this thread is the philosophical problem faced by people who make such claims and so for the sake of the argument, it is assumed that God exists and made claims about what is intrinsically good.

Originally posted by Autokrat
That isn't the point of this thread (at least, I don't think it is.) I'm an atheist so obviously I agree that all the books are written by humans and don't prove that anything is intrinsically good.

The point of this thread is the philosophical problem faced by people who make such claims and so for the sake of the argument, it is assumed that God exists and made claims about what is intrinsically good.

I am a theist, and I still think it is a false problem.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I am a theist, and I still think it is a false problem.

Yes, but your version of God is, well I don't know what it is, and most people probably don't operate under your definition of God. The majority of apologetic philosophers and theologians are going to be talking about the Abrahamic deity. They will also try to establish a stable definition before they enter into the debate.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How would God make a statement?

Don't be stupid.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Could intrinsic be interpreted as a statement made by God?

I can't seem to parse that sentence.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Can you name one thing that is intrinsically good?

No, I don't believe in intrinsic goods. But that's irrelevant because this thread isn't about me.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think it is a false problem because there is no such thing as intrinsically good.

Irrelevant.

The belief in intrinsic good exists, the belief in God exists. Thus the problem exists.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Don't be stupid.

I don't know what you are talking about. I asked you a question.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I can't seem to parse that sentence.

It's not that hard. Could your problem be nothing but definitions?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No, I don't believe in intrinsic goods. But that's irrelevant because this thread isn't about me.

Then you have made an assumption that is incorrect.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Irrelevant.

I don't care.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The belief in intrinsic good exists, the belief in God exists. Thus the problem exists.

But not all theists believe that. You should define your thread better.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It's not that hard. Could your problem be nothing but definitions?

Blueberries 47 smilie face you fire ten ghost.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But not all theists believe that. You should define your thread better.

No. I used the words that would make the greatest number of people understand what I mean. given the amount of time you spend trying to not understand other people it's reasonable to say that this confusion you're faced with is entirely your fault.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Blueberries 47 smilie face you fire ten ghost.

No. I used the words that would make the greatest number of people understand what I mean. given the amount of time you spend trying to not understand other people it's reasonable to say that this confusion you're faced with is entirely your fault.

"Blueberries 47 smilie face you fire ten ghost"

I think that sums it up. And then you try to say I am confused.
😆

If a theist believes in an evil god, then how is your question valid? It is only valid under certain beliefs, like Christianity.

Originally posted by Autokrat
Would that have the implication of God tacitly admitting that he made a mistake or realized he could do something better?

I'm not aware of the Christian explanation, though I believe it is tied to Jesus, however Muslims explain that all revelations prior to that of Mohammed were incomplete, and Jesus, Moses, Buddah, Quetiezatelquatal, were all just partial revelations. God didn't change, he just hadn't fully revealed himself.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Blueberries 47 smilie face you fire ten ghost.

I've been saying that for years

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So imagine God makes a statement that something is good or should be done. Their are two possibilities: either the statement is inherently true or it is subjective.

In either case it seems to cause a problem for theism.

If it an intrinsic good then we do not need God because the thing/idea being good in independent of God.
If is is not an intrinsic good then God's position in no more valid than mine or yours and thus we do not need God anymore than any other philosopher.

Thoughts? Third options?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If a theist believes in an evil god, then how is your question valid? It is only valid under certain beliefs, like Christianity.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yes, and that's obviously what this thread was aimed at, as would be apparent to anyone applying the slightest bit of analysis to the OP.

Like you do?