Bane runs the gauntlet

Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
That's partly because I don't really care about Bane anymore. Or Star Wars in general really.

You wrote a pretty long paragraph for someone who doesn't care for SW very much.

Though that being said, he could definitely clear it.

"definitely"??

He's quite easily the most well rounded combatant here (excelling in force power (able to manipulate the Force on a planetary scale), force control (able to manipulate the Force on a subatomic scale), knowledge of the force (possessing all of Revan's knowledge, and having spent ten years learning from Sadow's entire knowledge base via Freedon Nadd's holocron while equipped with his genius learning rate), saber technique (becoming perfectly familiar with and developing counter measures for every single one of Kas'im's moves and sequences (numbering in the hundreds of thousands if not millions), not only an advantage against other combatants using the same move set but also a testament to his natural ability with a lightsaber given that he achieved such a feat in a matter of months, which would further benefit his own advancements with his own primary form, one that was hand picked for him because it suited his talents), fighting tactics (adapting his fighting style around his orbalisk armour in a manner that uses it to its best combative potential and grants him a unique fighting style, as well as frequently using the environment to his advantage, and being able to identify and adapt to changes in the battle environment) and physical strength (an absolute monster, a "mountain of muscle"😉), and on top of that he receives the added advantage of armour that protects 90% of his body with the only known effects that can damage it at all being electricity, as well as significantly adding to his Force reserves and energy levels.

Wow, that's a super long run on sentence.

1. "planetary scale" was a Force ritual
2. "sub atomic scale" was to create a holocron, which numerous others have done in SW.
3. Most of that Force knowledge involved rituals and such that cannot be applied to gauntlets/fights such as this one.
4. I'll agree that Bane learned to use a saber pretty quickly, so yeah, he learns quickly, but so have many of the combatants in this gauntlet.
5. "fighting tactics"; it doesn't take a genius to figure out that you can do a lot of things with lightsaber proof armor.
6. physical strength isn't of any huge importance (although speed/stamina/resistance to pain/etc. are, all of which Luke have) since lightsabers have little to no mass and Luke has superior Force reserves.
7. Orbalisks are one of the reasons why he gets pretty far, but he doesn't clear - definitely not "definitely". Luke and Mace could likely shatter/bypass the orbalisks via shatterpoint.

He's displayed some of the mightiest displays that you can find (the single greatest display of control we've ever seen, and one of the top displays of power), and even with people who are arguably more powerful than him in the form of Kyp Durron or Luke Skywalker, I believe he still holds signficant advantages over them in other areas (such as his unprecedented level of force control) as well as other advantages, such as the orbalisk armour, that would grant him the overal set of abilities to net him the win ahainst them; put simply, he's just too well rounded and mighty a fighter that I can see anybody really being able to beat him.

"arguably more powerful" and yet you say that he clears "definitely"

What we have in Bane is someone who's simply too powerful, too controlled, too smart, and too knowledgable for anybody to be able to compete with.

1. you just admitted that Luke/Kyp are arguably more powerful
2. Many of the combatants here are also controlled; Luke manipulated Dorvan Basils (sp?).
3. Many of the combatants here are also knowledgeable; Luke knows a huge number of crazy Force moves such as cloaking himself.

Originally posted by Weltall
Given that it wasn't a product of the ritual but rather a prerequisite, that it took place within the confines of a ritual is entirely irrelevant. Bane had to fully rely on his own personal prowess in the Force to absorb all of the lightning being generated from the other Sith Lords for the ritual to work. He also had to store the energy, whilst protecting himself internally, all under his own personal level of ability, as well as redirect the lightning with the vision and range that he did. The only component that was reliant on the nature of the ritual (organised procedure, and the other Sith Lords) was the magnitude of power that was stored, and the destruction it caused on the Ruusan landscape. Everything else was done under Bane's level of ability.

Originally posted by Weltall
The only return on "subatomic" or "sub-atomic" or any such such you get through searching the document I linked to earlier in this thread:

He had made his first attempt five years before. Using Freedon Nadd's Holocron as a blueprint, he had re-created the intricate matrix of lattices and vertices that were the key to storing nearly infinite amounts of knowledge in a data system small enough to fit in the palm of a hand. It had taken months to gather and fashion the rare crystal into the filaments and fibers of the interlaced network, followed by weeks of delicate and painstaking adjustments. The matrix had to fall within highly exacting specifications, and Bane had spent hundreds of hours making thousands of precise, subatomic alterations through the power of the Force to ensure that each crystalline strand was properly in place.

Where exactly does it say that the subatomic alterations were absolutely necessary? All that's stated is that the "highly exacting specifications", which aren't defined, were necessary. The subatomic alterations were made as an assurance, an act that often goes beyond what is absolutely necessary so as to guarantee success. So again, where are they stated to be necessary? If it's in another source then be sure to mention which one.

Control, as in the scale with which Force energies can be precisely manipulated on. Not control, as in controlling the Force to do cool things.

Evaluation: the ability to distinguish between points that would support an argument and those that would detract from the argument, assigning value to the points and then weighing up the points to reach an overall decision. "Luke/Kyp are arguably more powerful" =/= Luke/Kyp win.

Though that being said, he could definitely clear it.

None of the other characters in this thread have displayed a learning rate that ranks within the same universe as Bane's. He was able to perfectly familiarise himself with what is stated to be hundreds of thousands of moves and sequences within a matter of months, accumulate all of Revan's knowledge which was described as being as vast as the temple's entire library in a matter of weeks, and not an hour after learning the base ability of generating Force lightning, he was able to create a storm of Force lightning that encompassed an entire room capable of housing hundreds of students. He became one of the most powerful Sith Lords the Galaxy had ever known by the end of PoD, able to manipulate the Force on a planetary scale most notably, after approximately two and a half years of training. There isn't a single character in the mythos who displays a fraction of his learning ability, with a lightsaber or with the Force.

(Neb, did you not notice that Luke also has lightsaber proof armor?)

Most of that Force knowledge involved rituals and such that cannot be applied to gauntlets/fights such as this one.

This remains unsupported. The rituals contained within Revan's holocron were made a point of significance however nothing indicated that they represented the majority of the holocron's knowledge.

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That a lightsaber is clearly shown to function in a manner where the physical strength of the user has a significant impact on the strength of its blows (quick examples: being stated to be a prime reason why Anakin was so overwhelmingly effective against Dooku, Djem So being chosen for Bane because his strength complemented the form to such an extent that it factored in on it being chosen over the other forms) would indicate that how you may feel it would realistically function is false.

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Not only have the orbalisks not yet been established to possess a shatterpoint but, among the very characters listed, it has shown to function at nothing even close to resembling an immediate manner when dealing with far less alien situations/objects. Shatterpoint also only identifies weaknesses, it does not automatically grant the user to exploit said weaknesses.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
(Neb, did you not notice that Luke also has lightsaber proof armor?)

That I did not.

However I'd still stand by my original position.

Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
Control, as in the scale with which Force energies can be precisely manipulated on. Not control, as in controlling the Force to do cool things.

Evaluation: the ability to distinguish between points that would support an argument and those that would detract from the argument, assigning value to the points and then weighing up the points to reach an overall decision. "Luke/Kyp are arguably more powerful" =/= Luke/Kyp win.

???

And exactly how does the ability to manipulate sub atomic particles (and I wouldn't be surprised if Luke/Kyp/some other high tier Force users can do so as well) matter in a fight?

Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
Though that being said, he could definitely clear it.

Which, grammatically, means pretty much the same if the "could" wasn't there; it has to, otherwise you'd be contradicting yourself with "could" and "definitely".

Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
None of the other characters in this thread have displayed a learning rate that ranks within the same universe as Bane's. He was able to perfectly familiarise himself with what is stated to be hundreds of thousands of moves and sequences within a matter of months, accumulate all of Revan's knowledge which was described as being as vast as the temple's entire library in a matter of weeks, and not an hour after learning the base ability of generating Force lightning, he was able to create a storm of Force lightning that encompassed an entire room capable of housing hundreds of students. He became one of the most powerful Sith Lords the Galaxy had ever known by the end of PoD, able to manipulate the Force on a planetary scale most notably, after approximately two and a half years of training. There isn't a single character in the mythos who displays a fraction of his learning ability, with a lightsaber or with the Force.

I understand that Bane has a ridiculously high learning rate, but we're not talking potential/learning rate here. We're talking about whether or not he would clear, which he wouldn't. A student with a super fast learning rate that just started training would still likely lose to a not as fast of a learner but experienced master.

Oh, and why do you keep on bringing up this "manipulating the Force on a planetary scale" thing? It was a ritual that required multiple Sith lords and lots of prep time.

Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
This remains unsupported. The rituals contained within Revan's holocron were made a point of significance however nothing indicated that they represented the majority of the holocron's knowledge.

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That a lightsaber is clearly shown to function in a manner where the physical strength of the user has a significant impact on the strength of its blows (quick examples: being stated to be a prime reason why Anakin was so overwhelmingly effective against Dooku, Djem So being chosen for Bane because his strength complemented the form to such an extent that it factored in on it being chosen over the other forms) would indicate that how you may feel it would realistically function is false.

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Not only have the orbalisks not yet been established to possess a shatterpoint but, among the very characters listed, it has shown to function at nothing even close to resembling an immediate manner when dealing with far less alien situations/objects. Shatterpoint also only identifies weaknesses, it does not automatically grant the user to exploit said weaknesses.

So what do you think the holocrons could have taught him? Lightsaber techniques? Whenever a character is mentioned consulting a holocron, it's pretty much always for something that isn't applicable in a sudden combat scenario; such as the Thought Bomb, or when Krayt tried to consult those ancient holocrons.

That's still debatable. Obi Wan was able to stand up very well to Grevious's blows, and Grevious has superhuman strength superior to that of Bane's.

First of all, in this gauntlet Luke gets lightsaber proof armor. Second of all, Caedus and even Jaina quite effortlessly shattered beskar with a single tap. Although the orbalisks likely >> beskar, Luke > Caedus/Jaina and Mace likely has more practice with shatterpoint, so if Caedus/Jaina can effortlessly shatter beskar it is likely that Luke/Mace can shatter orbalisks, perhaps with difficulty though.

Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
That I did not.

However I'd still stand by my original position.

The fact that Luke would have it as well negates most of the orbalisk's advantages except for the adrenaline boost. Remember that Bane would have been pretty tired by now, and Luke is quite possibly the greatest duelist and Force user in SW history. Unless if Bane can counter supermassive black holes.

Oh, and this is the first time I remember you (Nebaris) using an avatar.

It's a demonstration of Force control, an attribute which would determine how effectively a Force User would be able to apply their power on a small scale, something of fundamental importance when the target of your Force attack is a human sized being and you're used to performing attacks on planets. Both Bane and Luke can manipulate the Force on a planetary level but in a one on one, close quarters engagement between the two of them what would really matter is how effectively they would be able to use their powers to directly harm each other. Luke cannot be said to possess a level of control even close to Bane's, and by extension cannot be said to be anywhere near as capable of focusing his Force powers on a small scale.

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"Definitely could", as in, it's definite that it could happen.

That he definitely could do something does not mean that he definitely will do that same something.

I definitely could go to the mall tomorrow. It is certainly something that can happen. Does not mean it's something that will happen.

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I was using his incredible learning rate with a lightsaber as supporting evidence that he would have been able to naturally progress at an extremely fast rate with his own chosen style, something that matters in current terms.

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Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
Given that it wasn't a product of the ritual but rather a prerequisite, that it took place within the confines of a ritual is entirely irrelevant. Bane had to fully rely on his own personal prowess in the Force to absorb all of the lightning being generated from the other Sith Lords for the ritual to work. He also had to store the energy, whilst protecting himself internally, all under his own personal level of ability, as well as redirect the lightning with the vision and range that he did. The only component that was reliant on the nature of the ritual (organised procedure, and the other Sith Lords) was the magnitude of power that was stored, and the destruction it caused on the Ruusan landscape. Everything else was done under Bane's level of ability.

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That Obi-Wan was able to stand up to Grievous' blows simply means that Grievous' strength advantage didn't net him an automatic victory in any given saber engagement, not that there wasn't a strength advantage or that it wasn't a significant one. If you referring to Bane's overall strength (natural strength, with the added advantages of his Force strength and the added adrenaline pumped into his body, as well as the weight advantage of the orbalisks) then that remains entirely supported (that Grievous's strength is superior).

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It's not a simple matter of orbalisks being >>> beskar, it's that unlike beskar, they cannot be said to be vulnerable to the effects of any substance that isn't electricity. And again, the shatterpoint ability has not shown itself to be immediately effective against far less alien and complex situations/objects, and the abiltiy to identify a weakness does not automatically translate into the ability to capitalise on a weakness.

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Could you go into all of the specifics on the armour Luke will be wearing? Are we to assume that he has grown used to it and adapted his style around it as Bane has?

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It's entirely possible that the statement that details that Luke would have been unaffected by the supermassive black hole in the centre of the galaxy was made in exegarative or metaphorical terms. Unless you can conclusively prove that it was made in literal terms you cannot use it as evidence for Luke's level of power.

The advantage of having adrenaline and dark side energies constantly pumped into Bane's body would largely eliminate the fatigue a character would otherwise be exposed to in this gauntlet, and with regards to the holocrons, a small sample cannot be said to be reflective of the entire whole, so that the few times you have seen knowledge from within a holocron presented it has been in the form of abilities that wouldn't be applicable in a combat situation is not reflective of the idea that the vast majority or entirety of a holocron's knowledge would be of such a nature.

"would indicate that how you may feel it would realistically function is false"

This was supposed to come out as: "would indicate that how you may feel it would realistically function is not reflective of the way it functions within the SW universe".

Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
It's a demonstration of Force control, an attribute which would determine how effectively a Force User would be able to apply their power on a small scale, something of fundamental importance when the target of your Force attack is a human sized being and you're used to performing attacks on planets. Both Bane and Luke can manipulate the Force on a planetary level but in a one on one, close quarters engagement between the two of them what would really matter is how effectively they would be able to use their powers to directly harm each other. Luke cannot be said to possess a level of control even close to Bane's, and by extension cannot be said to be anywhere near as capable of focusing his Force powers on a small scale.

that doesnt make sense

the force isnt some linear power source. being able to manipulate something on a grand scale enables you to manipulate anything on a smaller scale as well with the same general proficiency (in fact going with what it stated in-universe about larger heavier objects requiring more effort, it stands to reason that it would actually be easier).

assuming that luke would have trouble manipulating bane with the force because bane is not the size of a planet, is ridiculous. id have to ask, what events or statements in regards to the mythos would support that idea? i dont recall any character ever struggiling with an object because it is drastically smaller then other objects he has manipulated.

From the words of your very favorite character in the mythos:

She turned her focus back to their surroundings. It still rankled her that she hadn't noticed the Cthons before they had attacked, and she had vowed to herself not to let something like that happen again. Seeking out life-forms around her with the Force was a task with varying degrees of difficulty. Intelligent, Force-sensitive beings were usually easy to spot, of course, while lower-level forms-insects and animals, for example-did not broadcast nearly much of a blip on her mental radar. It was true that her mastery of the Force was nowhere near perfect, but that was no excuse for not doing the best she could. Her Twi'lek Master had once explained to her that sensitivity and fine-tuning came with time. "As a Padawan," he had said, "I could push boulders around with ease, but seeds were next to impossible."

Anoon Bondaras says hi. 😄

interesting!

i must meditate on this

1. Sub atomic level is on a completely different scale than human being sized targets. And again, I wouldn't be surprised if Luke could do this as well.
2. You said could definitely, not definitely could. They're different.
3. Right, but Luke invented his own style pretty much from scratch.
4. There is still no concrete proof that lightsabers have mass (other than the handle), and even if it did, the fact that Obi Wan took Grevious's blows shows that Luke would be able to take Bane's blows as well.
5. What are you saying? Caedus/Jaina could both easily shatter beskar, the latter only a short while after learning it. Why can't Luke and Mace do the same (although since the orbalisks are likely stronger it may take more effort)?
6. Luke, in this scenario, has saber proof armor covering his body except for his head/hands/feet. It's doesn't provide him with any adrenaline pumping boosts like the orbalisks do though. It isn't all that heavy, but Luke doesn't have time to adapt his fighting style or anything in this scenario.
7. I think that the purpose of the statement that the author made was to say that Luke was literally immovable when he did that. There's no proof that the quote about it was figurative.
8. Prove that the holocrons contained combat information.
9. You really haven't proven how Bane would in any way defeat Luke. Bane has never, say, landed himself, someone else and his fighter from free fall like Luke did. Nor has he created an entire illusion of a fleet that fooled a high level sith lord.

I say 10, 13 and 14 are big threats, especially the last one.

10: the Mandos have beskar, so Bane won't be able to cut through them instantly with a lightsaber. They'll all be firing at him, likely from all sides with repeating blasters/flamethrowers/etc., while he can't simply slice any of them in half. He'll have to work really hard for a victory, if he gets one at all.

13: I'm not sure if Bane could pull a Sidious here and quickly defeat most of the arrest team minus Mace and, for a while, Fisto; Bane and Zannah were hard pressed to beat those 5 jedi, none of whom were as powerful as the arrest team here. Mace alone w/his shatterpoint could likely get past the orbalisks, and he beat Sidious. Plus, he has Vapaad.

14. Luke is simply too powerful for Bane, especially if Luke gets saber proof armor, like he does in this scenario. He's shown to be very talented with a lightsaber, and has a huge array of ridiculously powerful Force powers; in Invincible it seems as though he was at two places at once.

Ok given that it's pretty clear that you're not in the process of shutting up any time soon and I need to go get my BUS2 on I think I'll just end this with a big:

NO..

Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
Ok given that it's pretty clear that you're not in the process of shutting up any time soon and I need to go get my BUS2 on I think I'll just end this with a big:

NO..

Lol what?

I'm one of the few members here that doesn't bash or insult you while debating with you, and then you act like this?

Besides, you've lost, and you know it. You tried to stop that by claiming that you said "definitely could" instead of "could definitely", two different phrases, but you were wrong. Bane falls. He might get pretty far, but Luke smokes him.

Well I personally didn't take too kindly to some of these comments:

"You wrote a pretty long paragraph for someone who doesn't care for SW very much."

"Wow, that's a super long run on sentence."

"Oh, and this is the first time I remember you (Nebaris) using an avatar."

I'm sure it wasn't your intention to be an ass but that was how it came across. I expect a private apolagy by the end of the hour or I will be reporting you to the administrators.

😆