Originally posted by psycho gundam
never. that's not what's best in life6PQ6335puOc&feature
warriors never think like that
Sorry, can't hear that. My monitor has been screwing up (has built in speakers) so I had to connect my computer to my TV...My 40in HDTV😏, and have no way of hooking up sound to it yet. So the vid is ineffective. But just to maybe somewhat kind of counter it, Thor thought that when he fount Juggernaut on the 8th Day.
He is a Juggernaut fan.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I'm thinking it would be one of those fights Thor gets into thinking he'll win easily then he gets kind of trashed by Rhino. Thor then thinks to himself (or blurts out in Asgardian tongue) "WTF?!? When did he get so smart?!?!?" Then Thor curb stomps him.
Thor one shots him you Rhino fanboy.
He also beats the shit out of the Juggernaut.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
you don't know what's best in life 😊
Actually I think I remember that scene. Well played.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He is a Juggernaut fan.Thor one shots him you Rhino fanboy.
He also beats the shit out of the Juggernaut.
Woah, calm down spunky. I'm no Rhino fanboy. He has a little bit o' power, and could surprised Thor, but he ain't beating Thor.
Also, Thor ain't beating Juggernaut without cheap tricks or BFR.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Woah, calm down spunky. I'm no Rhino fanboy. He has a little bit o' power, and could surprised Thor, but he ain't beating Thor.Also, Thor ain't beating Juggernaut without cheap tricks or BFR.
No, **** you! Your nothing but a dirty fanboy.
Well, if by cheap trick you mean turning off his force field so they can go at as real men, then yes, I agree.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
No, **** you! Your nothing but a dirty fanboy.Well, if by cheap trick you mean turning off his force field so they can go at as real men, then yes, I agree.
Nah, it would take more than that in a CIS/PIS fight. But whatever floats your boat and helps you sleep at night.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Nah, it would take more than that in a CIS/PIS fight. But whatever floats your boat and helps you sleep at night.
I'm interested now. You consider there second fight an indication of CIS/PIS? Really? Which part in particular?
I assume you've read most of Juggernaut's appearances, so you know his true invulnerability being reliant on his force field is far from baseless.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm interested now. You consider there second fight an indication of CIS/PIS? Really? Which part in particular?I assume you've read most of Juggernaut's appearances, so you know his true invulnerability being reliant on his force field is far from baseless.
Admittedly, Juggernaut can a hard character to follow. I do not believe that his invulnerability is directly tied to his force-field. It seems that his FF is usually there to make him somewhat immovable, redirect energy (both of those in earlier issues) and keep others from grabbing hold of him/getting to his helmet.
I think that writer may be the only one to insinuate that. Even taking away that invulnerability, his healing factor should keep him going regardless. Although, his healing factor was later explored after that Thor fight, so it wasn't taken into account / know of by that writer back then.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Admittedly, Juggernaut can a hard character to follow. I do not believe that his invulnerability is directly tied to his force-field. It seems that his FF is usually there to make him somewhat immovable, redirect energy (both of those in earlier issues) and keep others from grabbing hold of him/getting to his helmet.I think that writer may be the only one to insinuate that. Even taking away that invulnerability, his healing factor should keep him going regardless. Although, his healing factor was later explored after that Thor fight, so it wasn't taken into account / know of by that writer back then.
I do. At least back then.
He seemed to be attributing his invulnerability to his force field back in the day. He made statements similar to: "As long as nothing penetrates my force field, I'm invulnerable." or "Nothing can harm me through my invulnerable force field." etc.
And at the times he was found without it on, he certainly didn't seem invulnerable. He was hurt by Storm and Spider-Woman's electrical attack, staggered by an impact with a wind tunnel fan, hurt when Nightcrawler threw a torch in his face etc.
His force field has been depicted as invisible and practically a second skin so just because it's not being shown doesn't mean it isn't being used. I recall an issue where Black Tom gained half of Juggernaut's powers, and Spider-Man's webbing stopped inches from his face, and no mention of the force field is given as far as I recall, although it's been years. That could explain his invulnerability without the force field being mentioned in an issue although I doubt current writers even remember the force field.
Based on shit like that, I don't see how his fight with Thor can be considered P.I.S.
If your referring to the scene with the D'Spayre, that was a high showing for Juggernaut and as I recall, his healing factor has never been on that level before. Don't expect it to be portrayed like that a lot.
Juggernaut being invulnerable all on his own now wouldn't be any surprise, but let's no pretend as if there wasn't heavy evidence to suggest that it was the case for his actual invulnerability back in the day. At least under some writers. That field was present since day one.
That's my opinion on the entire Cain/Field thing from what I remember.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
And at the times he was found without it on, he certainly didn't seem invulnerable. He was hurt by Storm and Spider-Woman's electrical attack, staggered by an impact with a wind tunnel fan, hurt when Nightcrawler threw a torch in his face etc.
In the Storm Spider-Woman fight, I think they mentioned they attacked his neurological system or something to that affect, Storms powers amplified Spider-Womans. He wasn't damaged. I'll have to go back and read those issues.
The wind tunnel thing, if I'm thinking of the same thing, is in a different category. His shield seemed to make him an immovable object there as apposed to protecting him physically. He "turned on" his FF and the fan had no affect on him as he flew through the air, whilst the fan should have been able to blow a 900lb object away.
The Nightcrawler part is something I can't explain really. Deadpool attacked him with molten metal, which he was pissed at, but didn't harm him. Covered him head to toe. So a little fire should not have been able to harm him.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
His force field has been depicted as invisible and practically a second skin so just because it's not being shown doesn't mean it isn't being used. I recall an issue where Black Tom gained half of Juggernaut's powers, and Spider-Man's webbing stopped inches from his face, and no mention of the force field is given as far as I recall, although it's been years. That could explain his invulnerability without the force field being mentioned in an issue although I doubt current writers even remember the force field.
That's another thing that makes it difficult to follow him. DeFalco had a hand in writing both the Spider-Man story and the Thor ones. I don't think he knew everything about the character though. He labeled Juggernaut as a mutant in a few of the issues (in the narration).
The team-up issue where Black Tom gained half the power, is somewhat retconned by New Excalibur and the Irredeemable arc. Basically when another touches the gem, the original Juggernaut is depowered and they have to fight to the death in order to stay/become the new Juggernaut.
I agree with the current writers not remembering/knowing about the FF.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Based on shit like that, I don't see how his fight with Thor can be considered P.I.S.If your referring to the scene with the D'Spayre, that was a high showing for Juggernaut and as I recall, his healing factor has never been on that level before. Don't expect it to be portrayed like that a lot.
Juggernaut being invulnerable all on his own now wouldn't be any surprise, but let's no pretend as if there wasn't heavy evidence to suggest that it was the case for his actual invulnerability back in the day. At least under some writers. That field was present since day one.
That's my opinion on the entire Cain/Field thing from what I remember.
When Juggernaut first fought the Hulk, I am pretty sure he didn't use his FF. Hulk was able to grab his helmet and throw him, while Thor could not even dent his helmet until the shield was gone. Of course when Juggernaut fought WWH, Hulk was able to dent his helmet, I don't think his shield was used there either. I would think Hulks punches then were stronger than Thor's in #429. But Thors hits definitely were more effective looking than Hulks between the two stories.
I don't expect a portrayal like the D'Spraye scene to happen often. For one, Juggs (unfortunately) doesn't have many appearances, and even less when he is actually shown to have damage. The two times I can recall are the above mentioned, and in X-Force when Shatterstars sword stab his eyes out. Both healed within the next panel. To add to the healing ability, when he was depowered and fought Rhino, who was amped, Rhino was able to stab his horn into his stomach, and in the next few panels it was healed over.
Over all, I'm not going to tell you your opinion is flatout wrong, because there are those instances that support you. Some can be argued back and forth, while the fire with Nightcrawler is a 'WTF?'. I will attribute this to Juggernaut's character being rarely used, and his showings going up and down and powers differing from writer to writer (globules of energy anyone?). Maybe back then writers thought differently, some thought "Oh a shield, that must be the source of his invulnerability", while others were thinking, "Shield, what shield?".
But with what Juggernaut has become over the years, while at full power, considering the healing factor, I don't think the shield trick used by Thor back in '91 would/should work on Juggernaut today.
No, Juggernaut didn't use a force field in his fight with Hulk. And yes, Hulk was able to pick him up by the helmet and toss him into a mountain.
And nothing Hulk did really hurt Juggernaut, according to Juggernaut himself.
There's other examples of Jugg's body simply being invulnerable without the force field, such as the time he took on the Exemplars and their combined attack was described as not harming his body, and even his clothes that had the same protective spell. Only the mind attack took him down.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
In the Storm Spider-Woman fight, I think they mentioned they attacked his neurological system or something to that affect, Storms powers amplified Spider-Womans. He wasn't damaged. I'll have to go back and read those issues.The wind tunnel thing, if I'm thinking of the same thing, is in a different category. His shield seemed to make him an immovable object there as apposed to protecting him physically. He "turned on" his FF and the fan had no affect on him as he flew through the air, whilst the fan should have been able to blow a 900lb object away.
The Nightcrawler part is something I can't explain really. Deadpool attacked him with molten metal, which he was pissed at, but didn't harm him. Covered him head to toe. So a little fire should not have been able to harm him.
Did they? I remember them both attacking him and the narration stating that Juggernaut screamed in rage, then in pain. The pain part would indicate that their clearly had an effect on him.
The scene I'm thinking off, he was staggered by the impact. At least I think he was.
Different writers, different levels. Happens to all characters. In that same issue - the Deadpool one- didn't Juggernaut scream in pain when Deadpool dropped a set of knives on top of him? I'm pretty sure he did.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
That's another thing that makes it difficult to follow him. DeFalco had a hand in writing both the Spider-Man story and the Thor ones. I don't think he knew everything about the character though. He labeled Juggernaut as a mutant in a few of the issues (in the narration).The team-up issue where Black Tom gained half the power, is somewhat retconned by New Excalibur and the Irredeemable arc. Basically when another touches the gem, the original Juggernaut is depowered and they have to fight to the death in order to stay/become the new Juggernaut.
I agree with the current writers not remembering/knowing about the FF.
The Spider-Man story was Marvel Team-Up #150 as I recall. That was written by Simonson and not DeFalco. Tom stopped writing that series at around #135 or so.
That's true to an extent but my point is that there is precedent for Thor #429 so it still stands.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
When Juggernaut first fought the Hulk, I am pretty sure he didn't use his FF. Hulk was able to grab his helmet and throw him, while Thor could not even dent his helmet until the shield was gone. Of course when Juggernaut fought WWH, Hulk was able to dent his helmet, I don't think his shield was used there either. I would think Hulks punches then were stronger than Thor's in #429. But Thors hits definitely were more effective looking than Hulks between the two stories.
I don't think it was stated to be in play either. Like I said, Juggernaut's force field is portrayed like a second skin at times. For example, the New Warriors were able to wrap a steel girder around him, and Thrasher was able to land on his back and pound on him. So it definitely wouldn't be out of the question for the Hulk to grab him by his helmet. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean that the writer of the original Hulk and Juggernaut fight even had the force field in mind when he wrote it, but going by the above evidence, it could make sense to at least some extent. Continuity wise.
I would expect there to be evidence that supported Juggernaut being invulnerable to some extent without his force field from back in the day though. I mean, he should still be really durable without it. Low showings should be averaged out.
And it should be noted, that around this year, Juggernaut's powers were a bit iffy. I believe in Amazing Adventures #16 or so, Beast defeated Juggernaut by removing his helmet, which basically drained him of all of his power and youth or something similar. Pretty damn weird unless I'm forgetting some circumstances.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I don't expect a portrayal like the D'Spraye scene to happen often. For one, Juggs (unfortunately) doesn't have many appearances, and even less when he is actually shown to have damage. The two times I can recall are the above mentioned, and in X-Force when Shatterstars sword stab his eyes out. Both healed within the next panel. To add to the healing ability, when he was depowered and fought Rhino, who was amped, Rhino was able to stab his horn into his stomach, and in the next few panels it was healed over.
That's a good one. I forgot about the Shatterstar incident. I'll give you that one. Also kind of supports my stance to an extent.
That one was post D'Spayre so I'd expect him to have at least some healing factor. Was this consistent however? I recall him being injured in at least one situation with something similar to a bruise and not healing in panels etc. I'm not sure though.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Over all, I'm not going to tell you your opinion is flatout wrong, because there are those instances that support you. Some can be argued back and forth, while the fire with Nightcrawler is a 'WTF?'. I will attribute this to Juggernaut's character being rarely used, and his showings going up and down and powers differing from writer to writer (globules of energy anyone?). Maybe back then writers thought differently, some thought "Oh a shield, that must be the source of his invulnerability", while others were thinking, "Shield, what shield?".
That's a logical enough stance.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
But with what Juggernaut has become over the years, while at full power, considering the healing factor, I don't think the shield trick used by Thor back in '91 would/should work on Juggernaut today.
I wouldn't expect it to work now. Hell, I wouldn't even expect it to be remembered by current writers. If Thor did something similar, I'd expect it to be referenced that his durability was weakened and not that his force field was removed.
Anyways, based on the shit I've seen and read, I don't think it's correct to write off Thor #429 as P.I.S. etc. It definitely has precedent. That's basically my entire stance.
And in regards to my previous post when I stated his statements support my opinion to an extent, I meant shit like this:
http://i49.tinypic.com/14wytdl.jpg
And even better, shit like this:
http://i47.tinypic.com/35c4m5f.jpg
Thanks to Jonathan to scans.
I didn't clearly type what I wanted to say there on the Marvel Team-up. When I mentioned DeFalco, I was thinking about Thor and Amazing Spider-Man where Cains field was colored yellow for some reason. It was late and I was running my thoughts together on that, I knew DeFalco didn't write that issue. When you mentioned Spidey's webbing not touching Cain, I was thinking of ASM when it was shown.
I got the impression that during the fight with the New Warriors, Cain knew he didn't need the shield there, so he may not have used it. In those issues it seems that when he was using it, the narration let the reader know. That shield gets turned on and off a good bit in the issues it is displayed in. For instance when Firestar heated his armor till it was white hot. That didn't even register to him. But I don't think he shield was up due the his actual suit being super heated. Versus the ASM issue when the tanker exploded in his face.
The Amazing Fantasy with Beast had some strange happenings behind it. He was thrown into Oblivion by Eternity. While there, the place was draining his power. For some reason his rage kept him youthful. When Beast removed his helmet, he lost his confidence and that dimension was still taking affect on him and the draining of his power become more evident and he returned to Oblivion.
I forgot to mention that Shatterstars sword was also magical which was the reason given that it could damage Cain.
Outside of the D'Spraye fight and Shatterstar, I don't think he has been drawn with any physical damage while being at full power. He may have been injured in Malibu's All New Exiles, but he was weaker then.
I agree, that if Thor did something similar I would hope they would say his over durability was weakened versus just his shield.
Overall, the Thor fight is strange. With fights with the Hulk and others in the X-men, the shield being the main source of his durability is a little out of character to me. But I can see why, given past showings, it seems that it is not PIS. Cain definitely needs to have a set-in-stone power set which writers can check on and keep the same. Past that last Thor issue in the 90's I can't recall another time when his shield was used. I'm certain it hasn't been reference in this decade.
Just another random thing about the shield, in his first appearance, he shield was drawn out, and it seemed to disengrate the ground as he was clawing his way out of the hole that Cyclops made.
