Originally posted by Star428
I'm sorry, but most Satanists don't believe Satan is real? That's horseshit of the highest magnitude.
Except it's not. Hell, do a quick Google search. The Satanism wiki has a whole section on it. The top result for the Church of Satan seems to echo these sentiments, including the words "...the Satanist understands that all Gods are fiction..." on the front page. Another top result examining the philosophy of Satanism says "...Satan is not real but is the most ideal and accurate symbol of reality and nature..." on its front page.
Ooh, also, let's pull a quote from the so-called Satanic Bible:
"There is no heaven of glory bright, and no hell where sinners roast. Here and now is our day of torment! Here and now is our day of joy! Here and now is our opportunity! Choose ye this day, this hour, for no redeemer liveth!"
Or the "Satanic Scriptures" by Peter Gilmore:
"Satanism has been defined. It does not allow for distortions such as belief in cosmic entities, animal sacrifice, or claims that one is a "demon incarnate" amongst other theistic delusions."
srug
Basically, the onus is on anyone else to show Satanists that actually believe in Satan's existence. From everything I've seen, the VAST majority do not.
Not that it's a big deal. I think the Wiki said that there are only estimated to be about 100,000 Satanists worldwide, which is a negligible amount by any standard. Anyone decrying their influence on society might as well be decrying the influence of albino dwarves in the Mediterranean for all the actual influence and adherents they have.
Star has a tendency not to listen to me, but I learned something with that cursory research, so I'm kinda glad he chimed in with that rebuttal.
Originally posted by DigiI've encountered that a couple of times as well. Usually it's small groups of religious people who think that if you're not Christian/Muslim/etc. you are by default a worshiper of Satan.
Right. But it's very bizarre to equate Satanism with atheism. Unfortunately, it's not the first time I've encountered it. I think, more than anything, it speaks to a misunderstanding of what atheism is.
Another thing I've noticed - very few movies accurately depict atheists. It's rarely the Dawkins/Hitchens type characters (who just came to a conclusion that they don't believe in God), in movies it always some badass brooding guy that lost his wife/child/third uncle and is now angry with God rather than skeptical of his existence. By the end of the film this brooding guy usually learns a valuable lesson about love and forgiveness and excepts the Lord back into his heart.
Originally posted by SamZED
Another thing I've noticed - very few movies accurately depict atheists. It's rarely the Dawkins/Hitchens type characters (who just came to a conclusion that they don't believe in God), in movies it always some badass brooding guy that lost his wife/child/third uncle and is now angry with God rather than skeptical of his existence. By the end of the film this brooding guy usually learns a valuable lesson about love and forgiveness and excepts the Lord back into his heart.
Some writers are so insecure about their beliefs that they need to use fiction to insure themselves.
To be fair, the plot about an skeptical that witnesses apparent miracles, struggles with disbelief and manages to come out even more skeptical in the end is a bit of a nonsense. Why would a skeptical be inclined to believe in God at all given that proof of divinity is entirely impossible? At best he could struggle to believe in stuff like aliens or ESP.
Originally posted by Digi
Right. But it's very bizarre to equate Satanism with atheism. Unfortunately, it's not the first time I've encountered it. I think, more than anything, it speaks to a misunderstanding of what atheism is.I suppose in a technical sense an atheist could be a Satanist. At least in the way you describe, where Satan is just a symbol. It would be entirely incongruent to believe in Satan's existence and be an atheist. Those two really would be 100% incompatible.
But if we extend that argument, it's also possible for a Buddhist to be an atheist. Or several other religions where they aren't inherently theistic, or where the divine properties of the religion are metaphoric instead of literal. For example, though I don't consider myself a Taoist in any formal sense, I did for a very brief period, and I still appreciate and agree with many of the teachings in the Taoist tradition.
Sry haven't had the time to really respond to your post but yes I was going to say that Satanists don't actually believe in Satan or God.
Buddhist believe in all sorts of supernatural beings so I'm not sure how they could be atheist.
Bottom line is this as far as I'm aware Satanists are atheiist and it seems be an atheist religion because there beliefs stem from atheism. Stop making excuses and admit you're wrong.
Originally posted by Deadline
Sry haven't had the time to really respond to your post but yes I was going to say that Satanists don't actually believe in Satan or God.Buddhist believe in all sorts of supernatural beings so I'm not sure how they could be atheist.
Bottom line is this as far as I'm aware Satanists are atheiist and it seems be an atheist religion because there beliefs stem from atheism. Stop making excuses and admit you're wrong.
Depends on the type of Buddhism. There are atheist forms of Buddhism. There aren't many people who would call it that, but it's atheistic in the sense that there's no belief in a deity. Once again, though, I'm answering something that could be found out with a 2-minute Google search:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_Buddhism
http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/buddhaatheism.htm
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/128.htm
The last is my favorite. It essentially agrees with me, but calls 'atheist' a slanderous term and gets upset at the comparison. It's amusing in its religious xenophobia.
I think most Buddhists would probably identify as agnostic, but that's a bit of a guess. And it's because most forms of Buddhism don't deal expressly with the question; it's beside the point of achieving enlightenment. But that also allows the teachings to be assimilated into an atheistic worldview as well.
And...what am I admitting this time? Dude, scroll up. I just had a mid-sized post responding to Star about Satanism that discusses it in some detail. Some - probably most - Satanists are atheistic. Some - probably a minority - are theistic. Not only was I not wrong about that, we also seem to agree on that and I have an entire post detailing just this fact. Don't create a difference of opinion where none exists.
However, there's another idea in play that I reject. Because the reverse doesn't hold true. Even if all Satanists are atheists (most are, but not all), far, far, far from all atheists are Satanists. Estimates have the number of Satanists at around 100,000 worldwide. That's a Division I-A rivalry game in college football. Hell, there are more Jediism adherents in the world. Its societal imprint is nonexistent. It exists primarily as a bogeyman in the eyes of a scared or ill-informed few, those who ascribe all sorts of false qualities to it like ritualistic sacrifices or worship of an evil deity.
So. I will admit only what is factual. Most Satanists are atheists. But given the hilariously small number, and the number of atheists who can consider themselves Buddhists, Taoists (of which I loosely consider myself), humanists, etc. to say that Satanism is caused by atheism is ridiculous. I mean, the Christian theology would have to exist for Satanism to exist, so I would consider it just as culpable...which is to say, not very culpable at all. We're dealing with the tiniest margins of society. There's no societal footprint to discuss, nor blame to pass around. People believe all kinds of things. It's just one more forgettable "ism" to lump in with hundreds of others, and a way for angry teens to rebel against their parents or what they see as hypocrisy in society.
So basically, if you want to say atheism is at fault for Satanism, or gives rise to it, let's also credit it with secular humanism and a hundred other secular spinoffs of that same theme. If you want to drag atheism's name through the mud with 100,000 people worldwide (though from the sounds of it, it's actually not that evil), I'll happily match it with the incomparably larger good those organizations and movements do.
And, actually, while we're on the subject, is Satanism actually evil? The atheistic kind, that is, not the deity-worshiping, goat sacrificing stereotype that doesn't actually exist (or barely does). That should be part of your thesis. From what research I did, it's a bit of an odd collection of philosophies, but nothing explicitly evil. So I'm not prepared to simply concede that premise (though even if I did, there are the previous points to consider). I might be wrong - I'm not an expert on it - but it seems like when you add all of this together, the climb to prove it as a knock against atheism is rather steep.
/srug
Originally posted by Deadline
...Buddhist believe in all sorts of supernatural beings so I'm not sure how they could be atheist...
There are many types of Buddhists, and it is difficult to lump them together. But for the Buddhism that I practice you can believe how ever you wish about God, that's not part of the religion. I know of Christians and atheists that are both Nichiren Buddhists.
As far as all the "supernatural beings" that's mythology, and it should never be taken literally. It is simply a tool to teach.
That's my 2 cents...
Originally posted by Digi
Once again, though, I'm answering something that could be found out with a 2-minute Google search:
I know, and once again an example of you being patronising, while claiming that you're not. You have explained nothing in this thread all you've done is dodge points and repeat yourself, quite frankly I'm just getting fed up responding to you.
Originally posted by Star428
I'm sorry, but most Satanists don't believe Satan is real? That's horseshit of the highest magnitude.
It's not horseshit, but you do realize that if they DID believe he was real...they would not be believing in the cliche "source of all evil" type being that the name Satan normally conjures up.
Even if you step outside the satanists some people have all kinds of crazy theories about Satan. Look at Ancient Aliens, some of them feel that Lucifer and beings from other myths like "Prometheus" were all the same entity. An alien entity that wasn't evil, but merely wished to share knowledge with humanity and was demonized for doing so. Satan is associated with fire, Prometheus from the myths gave people fire, etc.
The point is there are a wide variety of interpretations for Satan.
Originally posted by Deadline
I know, and once again an example of you being patronising, while claiming that you're not. You have explained nothing in this thread all you've done is dodge points and repeat yourself, quite frankly I'm just getting fed up responding to you.
I just wrote eight paragraphs attempting to explain my position in response to you. You may be mistaking my honest answers for dodging because they aren't what you believe or want to hear. Or because I disagree with some premise that you put forth, and therefore can't or won't agree with you on a point. But if I'm not responding to what you'd like me to, be more clear.
It's patronizing because it's easy to find. I don't mind debating. I do mind taking time out of my day to explain things that you could look up in half a minute. And in the meantime, I've researched Buddhism and Satanism for a combined 30-60 minutes in the last day or so to be able to more accurately respond to you and Star, because I don't want to misrepresent anything with guesswork. I'm not claiming expertise; I just want to have informed responses. So in this case, it's not your ideas that I am condescending to; it's your laziness.
Originally posted by DigiIt's patronizing because it's easy to find. I don't mind debating. I do mind taking time out of my day to explain things that you could look up in half a minute. In this case, it's not your ideas that I am condescending to; it's your laziness.
What part of I already know what you're telling me do you not understand? I'm sorry it's just difficult some times not to get irritated by you. Anyway I'm going to stop posting until I'm ready to respond to the rest of your post.
Originally posted by Deadline
What part of I already know what you're telling me do you not understand?
But at least in one case, you didn't. You were flatly wrong about your assertion on Buddhism being incompatible with atheism. Where did you demonstrate understanding of that until I explained it to you?
Also, more broadly...good? So you know all that stuff now. Or already did. Whatever. Give me some prompts or something. Bc clearly I'm not addressing what you'd like me to.
Because it's frustrating for me too, btw. I'm doing my damndest to answer you thoroughly and to the best of my ability, and I'm getting snippy responses about me dodging. Like, I just made a couple posts on this page about Buddhism/Satanism/Atheism that's almost entirely new material, not just for this discussion but for my posting life on KMC as a whole. And I know it's brand new because I had to look up the info for it, and had never known it before. But apparently it's dodging and repeating myself. I'm at my wits end trying to figure out what won't engender such a response from you.
Originally posted by Surturi don't know about all that ancient aliens business, guy
It's not horseshit, but you do realize that if they DID believe he was real...they would not be believing in the cliche "source of all evil" type being that the name Satan normally conjures up.Even if you step outside the satanists some people have all kinds of crazy theories about Satan. Look at Ancient Aliens, some of them feel that Lucifer and beings from other myths like "Prometheus" were all the same entity. An alien entity that wasn't evil, but merely wished to share knowledge with humanity and was demonized for doing so. Satan is associated with fire, Prometheus from the myths gave people fire, etc.
The point is there are a wide variety of interpretations for Satan.
you know, it's messed up when you think about it. here the pharoah is, all worked up about his legacy and his success in the afterlife... saying to himself man, when i go out, i want people to look at my tomb and say "wow, that guy must've really been somebody." so he gets his people together and gets them to build him a beautiful luxury tomb, a really top notch trump status swagophagus, a real show of strength, showing the world what egypt is capable of, leaving a legacy that lingers for thousands of years....
and then out of nowhere some guy with goofy hair comes around 3000 years later and says nah... pharoah's people couldn't move those stones, man. convinces everyone that it was aliens that did it. using laser beams or something. call me old fashioned, but i think that's kind of rude, man.