Rule suggestion: Spiritual nonequivalence

In some outside forums there's a commonly known and accepted rule known as "Energy equivalence" which--though a misnomer--basically suggested that all spiritual powers (chakra, chi, magic, reiatsu, etc.) should be interchangeable. The main benefit of this is that it's easy to understand, characters will be more versatile and it's "fair". However, the problem is. It doesn't work.

If you were to argue with your friend that Uchiha Itachi from Naruto would defeat Uryū Ishida from Bleach, through genjutsu and he in turn would bring up that the mechanics of genjutsu are designed that it could only affect characters with a chakra-based nervous system that argument is efficiently refuted.

Of course there are even more absurd examples such as: "Neji Hyuga would cut off Kenpachi Zaraki's chakra system."

To try to counter by saying that it's unfair is to commit the is-ought problem fallacy.

Does this mean that genjutsu is worthless? No. Characters with chakra-based nervous systems--namely characters from Naruto--would still be affected with it. This would somewhat abstract power-scaling, but if you're well versed with said fictions it shouldn't be more of a problem than understanding the concept of rock-paper-scissors. Or if preferred:
[list][*]Bulbasaur > Squirtle
[*]Squirtle > Charmander
[*]Charmander > Bulbasaur[/list]

But there are more problem than that with "Energy equivalence", since the reasoning doesn't even hold within certain works of fiction. Mainly fictions with more than one type of spiritual power, for instance Bleach as of recent.

If the Koutotsu (arresting projection) is immune--or at least heavily resistant--to reiatsu no spiritual force of the presented caliber should be able to hard or even faze it. The outcome proved to differ.

The benefits of this system would be more accurate and detailed outcomes since more variables are taken into account.

Please contribute with arguments and votes.

One issue is often the power is omni-present- in Naruto, not everything uses chakra in a developed sense, but every living thing has chakra (as seen in the explanations of nature chakra where even plants have it, plus we know it's origin is just physical+spiritual power).

Stuff like Neji cutting off Kenpachi's chakra system should be useless in a crossover- after all, Kenpachi doesn't use a chakra system so it doesn't affect his strength even if it's cut off, but genjutsu is trickier since I don't think it requires the target to have developed chakra, just be a living thing with normal 'chakra'.

I would not think they're totally equivalent- Preta Path Pain should not be able to absorb spiritual powers because it's different, nor should an ability that counters an attack's reiatsu work on a jutsu, but I would generally assume that universal stuff is universal and that a soul reaper could sense "hey, that's a living being."

To use the force from Star Wars as an example, if you plopped these characters into SW they'd register as normal beings in the force with a great unrelated power, they wouldn't be like the Vong or Exile and wouldn't be cut off from it, but they also wouldn't be able to use their powers to do anything that needs the Force specifically to do (Aizen couldn't power the Star Forge).

Originally posted by Q99
One issue is often the power is omni-present- in Naruto, not everything uses chakra in a developed sense, but every living thing has chakra (as seen in the explanations of nature chakra where even plants have it, plus we know it's origin is just physical+spiritual power).

Originally posted by Q99
Stuff like Neji cutting off Kenpachi's chakra system should be useless in a crossover- after all, Kenpachi doesn't use a chakra system so it doesn't affect his strength even if it's cut off, but genjutsu is trickier since I don't think it requires the target to have developed chakra, just be a living thing with normal 'chakra'.

Originally posted by Q99
I would generally assume that universal stuff is universal and that a soul reaper could sense "hey, that's a living being."

Originally posted by Q99
To use the force from Star Wars as an example, if you plopped these characters into SW they'd register as normal beings in the force with a great unrelated power, they wouldn't be like the Vong or Exile and wouldn't be cut off from it, but they also wouldn't be able to use their powers to do anything that needs the Force specifically to do (Aizen couldn't power the Star Forge).

Originally posted by Astner
Most--if not all--living things in Naruto has chakra, then again no living thing in Bleach does. The term "spiritual power" is vague and underdeveloped. Like magic it can have varying origins and sources and it's not always that to integrate those sources.

The point is, undeveloped chakra that's universal to all life. Plants have it.

And don't forget the other half of chakra- physical energy. Half of chakra is manipulating physical energy.

Anything that relies on the target having developed chakra like ninja do should fail. Like Neji's chakra blocking attack or Orochimaru placing a seal on someone. But anything where the requirement is "be alive" works.

Kenpachi doesn't have a chakra system, he isn't even corporeal. The mechanics of genjutsu is such that the chakra flow to the victim's brain is manipulated. Unless specified chakra based assaults should only affect Naruto characters (and creatures).

Perhaps using a ghost might not be the best example (though the spirit ones do mimic physical ones.... they have brains and organs and all and drugs work on them and they bleed and yadda yadda). Let's use Uryu instead- Uryu's a human, genjutsu works on humans with no ninja powers, genjutsu should work on him unless he can snap himself out.

A soul reaper in a gigai.

The characters are from different realities. Certain in-universal rules shouldn't apply.

But if we go based on "we should assume stuff doesn't work unless otherwise proven," where do we stop there? Is absolutely everyone not from Bleach immune to Szayel's copy-power because it copies a target's spiritual body?

I think the rule should be "abilities work as normal." That is, we don't assume any special properties or interactions beyond what's shown, but we don't go out of our way to assume fairly universal stuff doesn't work. Neither gimping or boosting abilities.

If a power works on "all humans" or "all living things" or "all matter" then it should work on humans, living things, or matter from different universes if you ask me.

First off, the battles usually don't take place in one of the universes, but a cross battle scenery where the characters can utilize their abilities to the fullest. If the abilities's mechanics hinder them from affecting the opponent than that's that. You can't rip out the heart of the heartless nor can you pull out the soul of the soulless. Ningendô Pain wouldn't be able to detach a soulless vampire's soul.

Yes, but Ningendô Pain could rip out the soul of a vampire with a soul or that of a human from another universe.

Not being able to rip the heart out of a heartless or the soul from a soulless are specific exclusions- we have specific reasons to know those attacks wouldn't work. But unless we have a specific reason, universal stuff should be universal.

Originally posted by Q99
The point is, undeveloped chakra that's universal to all life. Plants have it.

Originally posted by Q99
And don't forget the other half of chakra- physical energy. Half of chakra is manipulating physical energy.

Originally posted by Q99
Anything that relies on the target having developed chakra like ninja do should fail. Like Neji's chakra blocking attack or Orochimaru placing a seal on someone. But anything where the requirement is "be alive" works.

Originally posted by Q99
Let's use Uryu instead- Uryu's a human, genjutsu works on humans with no ninja powers, genjutsu should work on him unless he can snap himself out.

A soul reaper in a gigai.

Originally posted by Q99
But if we go based on "we should assume stuff doesn't work unless otherwise proven," where do we stop there? Is absolutely everyone not from Bleach immune to Szayel's copy-power because it copies a target's spiritual body?

Originally posted by Q99
I think the rule should be "abilities work as normal." That is, we don't assume any special properties or interactions beyond what's shown, but we don't go out of our way to assume fairly universal stuff doesn't work. Neither gimping or boosting abilities.

If a power works on "all humans" or "all living things" or "all matter" then it should work on humans, living things, or matter from different universes if you ask me.

I think the rule is awful, according to you uber defenses against something (let's say magic) are not equivalent from one universe from another because its "different magic". It may hold true in "crossovers" or in fiction itself, but its a worthless and retrograd rule in VS forums.

This rule would suck. It makes it nigh-impossible to actually compare characters, and renders certain universes unfairly advantaged against others.

Originally posted by Astner

Assme we accepted this and give--say--Goku chakra, then we have to deal with the following questions: "How much chakra does Goku have?", "How well can he control it?", etc. There is no reason for doing this. If anything it complicates the situation. Who decides whether or not Goku should have the chakra of a normal human, or more than the combined collective of bijuu (tailed beasts)?

He would have the amount of a being that didn't use chakra, the default, and he would have no control at all because he doesn't use chakra.

Likewise, a Naruto ninja would have the chi of someone who didn't use chi like a schlub on the street because the ninja doesn't use chi.

No special advantages, no special immunities, no special disadvantages. If something is assumed the property of all life, then all life has it as the default level.

Of course. It's a in-universe ability. If your intent is to test the efficiency of that ability under different circumstances, you'd simply have to specify it.

That strikes me as a lousy way to do it. You're just making it so that a whole ton of abilities can't be debated period. You wouldn't be able to debate Szayel at all, just a gimped version of him.

And to state the obvious, all abilities are in-universe abilities.

You wouldn't think it would work on a machine, would you?

No, because we've only seen it work on people, but I would think it'd work on a human.

The problem with this is that there is no reason to accept this. You're not going to give the terminator a soul because everything in Naruto has a soul.

That's a poor example because the Terminator's a machine (and I guess it's flesh-covering would have as much as a non-sapient life form, which haven't been shown to have souls and it'd hardly matter either way).

I am giving John Conner a soul because by the default assumptions of the crossover, all humans have souls, on the other hand.

My rule would be "everything works as normal unless we have a reason to think it wouldn't." If a type of power is only available to some the people in a setting, then anyone outside can be assumed not to have it, but if something works on every human in-universe, it'd work on humans outside that verse.

this lack of spiritual power thingy is just one of the many reasons why I consider One Piece the top shounen manga...

compared to Naruto and Ichigo, Luffy's fights are determined more by ingenuity, raw physicality, and sheer force of will, as opposed to obscure power-ups, transformations, chakra reserves etc...

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
this lack of spiritual power thingy is just one of the many reasons why I consider One Piece the top shounen manga...

compared to Naruto and Ichigo, Luffy's fights are determined more by ingenuity, raw physicality, and sheer force of will, as opposed to obscure power-ups, transformations, chakra reserves etc...

Naruto fights are often decided by trickery and deception, and using a wide range of abilities properly.

One Piece, often creative uses of a very small but strong power set. Endurance is often a major factor. You get the odd powerup-mode too, like the gears or Chopper's rumble balls, which fill a similar role to cursed seals or sage mode.

I'm not sure if I'd consider either 'better,' both produce some really nice fights. Oda definitely is good at packing emotional content into his, though if neither fighter possesses particularly unusual powers the fight itself can be less interesting if it bogs down (Lucci vs Luffy, for example). I like how the Naruto fighters change things up a lot.

I respect your opinion...

Another difference is the way Oda and Kishi present their fights. A good example is Sasuke vs Danzo. Their new zomg no jutsus left me rolling my eyes more than appreciating it, in contrast to say Zoro's asura mode or to a lesser extent Sanji's diable jambe, both are over the top but comes out amusing yet beastly...

I still like all three top shounen btw, I just consider One Piece slightly above both...

Chakra is physical energy and spiritual energy.

So, in the Bleach Universe, they are just a being with spiritual energy. They can be harmed by corporeal beings such as Chad and Ishida, though.

You can nit-pick at the words used, but not the definitions.

A shinigami has "chakra", it's just only one type of the two types of chakra naturally present in life-forms.

In that sense, you could say that the average Shinigami would have half the spiritual energy, aka chakra, as a living being from Naruto. 🙂

But, yeah, any attacks that specifically affect the living tissues would not work on a Shinigami unless it was a direct attack.I have doubts that genjutus would work sense it is essentially a 'energy to the brain' attack...but Shinigamis have spiritual brains, right?

But, yeah, any attacks that specifically affect the living tissues would not work on a Shinigami unless it was a direct attack.I have doubts that genjutus would work sense it is essentially a 'energy to the brain' attack...but Shinigamis have spiritual brains, right?

Yes, they have a full set of organs. Drugs affect the brain, you have a spiritual liver, yadda yadda.

And yea, anything that specifically affected living tissues wouldn't work (plenty of 'death fields' around in fiction).

In Bleach your spiritual body adjust to your corporeal frame, hence the organs and whatnot--mainly because it would be ridiculous to have some organs like eyes, while ignoring for instance: intestines--but the spiritual body do have other properties.

The purpose of the spiritual nonequivalence system is to enforce non-bias arguments and make people adhere to facts presented in the source material, unless specifications are made in the opening thread.

Now according to this system there are two types of abilities, regular and in-universal. In-universal abilities are such that they rely on a specific mechanic manipulating a trait that only exist in that fiction. In direct use against an opponent, it's worthless. A rule of thumb for regular abilities could be "what's calculable" through the application of physics.

I'm not sure whether or not people reject this because they feel threaten that everything they know of forum battles won't go accordingly. However in terms of source application, this method is superior and far more accurate than anything else I've concluded or come across.

The purpose of the spiritual nonequivalence system is to enforce non-bias arguments and make people adhere to facts presented in the source material, unless specifications are made in the opening thread.

I don't think it does enforce non-bias though. It gimps some systems much more than others. Some systems fall way more into what you call in-universe abilities than others.

'Things work as normal' is a much more non-biased way of doing it because it won't shut down a lot of powers off the bat.

I'm not sure whether or not people reject this because they feel threaten that everything they know of forum battles won't go accordingly. However in terms of source application, this method is superior and far more accurate than anything else I've concluded or come across.

I don't think that's the problem people are having with it. It strikes me as simply making a lot of things harder to debate.

Originally posted by Q99
'Things work as normal' is a much more non-biased way of doing it because it won't shut down a lot of powers off the bat.

It's not that it "shut down a lot of powers" either, because those powers aren't efficient in the given circumstance to begin.

Rukia's level 1 binding kido can beat anyone now since they don't have Bleach reiatsu. 🙄

Stop trying to ruin the forum with your trolling.

Originally posted by Astner
If you by "normal" mean ignoring certain segments of the source material because it's prettier or fairer in your mind, then no.

If a versus is between combatants A and B, and B isn't allowed to use their powers, then we are not debating about the combat capabilities B has shown at all.

Fairness, keep in mind, often translates into "able to argue about in the first place." Your way is strait forward, but what's the point of a strait forward rule for versus battles that makes it hard to do versus battles?

It's not any more logical than equivalence or normal-unless-we-have-reason-to-believe-otherwise; any way of doing it is equally arbitrary, there's no existing baseline for crossovers. So fairness is what we've got to decide on.

It's not that it "shut down a lot of powers" either, because those powers aren't efficient in the given circumstance to begin.

If an ability works on all humans in-universe, then it's circumstance is that it works on humans of other reasons unless we have a specific reason to say otherwise.

Working as normal means that they'd work as they normally do in that circumstance- if you can sense a human from Star Wars in the force, then you can sense a human from Star Trek as well, because it's an ability that works in the circumstance of sensing humans.

Working with total nonequivalence means Jedi can't sense anyone not from SW in the force because other universes don't have the force, so you cannot debate a Jedi with those abilities against anyone out of universe at all.

Do you really think the latter is the stance we should take?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Rukia's level 1 binding kido can beat anyone now since they don't have Bleach reiatsu. 🙄

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Stop trying to ruin the forum with your trolling.

Originally posted by Q99
If a versus is between combatants A and B, and B isn't allowed to use their powers, then we are not debating about the combat capabilities B has shown at all.

Originally posted by Q99
Fairness, keep in mind, often translates into "able to argue about , in the first place." Your way is strait forward, but what's the point of a strait forward rule for versus battles that makes it hard to do versus battles?

Originally posted by Q99
It's not any more logical than equivalence or normal-unless-we-have-reason-to-believe-otherwise; any way of doing it is equally arbitrary, there's no existing baseline for crossovers. So fairness is what we've got to decide on.

Originally posted by Q99
If an ability works on all humans in-universe, then it's circumstance is that it works on humans of other reasons unless we have a specific reason to say otherwise.

Originally posted by Q99
Working as normal means that they'd work as they normally do in that circumstance- if you can sense a human from Star Wars in the force, then you can sense a human from Star Trek as well, because it's an ability that works in the circumstance of sensing humans.

Originally posted by Q99
Working with total nonequivalence means Jedi can't sense anyone not from SW in the force because other universes don't have the force, so you cannot debate a Jedi with those abilities against anyone out of universe at all.

Originally posted by Q99
Do you really think the latter is the stance we should take?

Most threads in this forum are bleach and naruto... huge handicaps are being given to both so really this rule would do nothing but make most discussion untenable.